Islamic Discussion Thread ٥: Free Tajweed, Absolutely Halaal

[Al Mumtahanah]

The Qur'an includes argument, not just eyewitness testimony. It is the defense.

Then I’m sure you wouldn’t mind summarizing those arguments for the sake of this discussion thread?

I will list some. The Qur'an is unique in its clarity and plainess and comprehensiveness, it is eloquent but not baroque, without either contradiction or "plot holes". Its use of repetition in multiple ways is so perfect that it cannot be deconstructed. It corrects the tampering with the Bible in way which restores its theology and narrative to coherence. Every prophet now is seen to preach the same God not apparently different gods and this is shown very smoothly in a way that is sensible. Listed prophets are now seen to come to all peoples not just Jews as coincides with the fact that there were prophets before there were Jews. Everything about the Qur'an breathes honesty and forthrightness.

[The Alma Mater]

Then I’m sure you wouldn’t mind summarizing those arguments for the sake of this discussion thread?

I will list some. The Qur'an is unique in its clarity and plainess and comprehensiveness

Then why do muslims vehemently disagree with eachother about what it says ?

As for your other points... how is it better than e.g. Ovids Metamorpheses; about which we can say the same things PLUS it being written in a perfect dactylic hexameter ?

[Jean-Paul Sartre]

Then I’m sure you wouldn’t mind summarizing those arguments for the sake of this discussion thread?

I will list some. The Qur'an is unique in its clarity and plainess and comprehensiveness, it is eloquent but not baroque, without either contradiction or "plot holes". Its use of repetition in multiple ways is so perfect that it cannot be deconstructed. It corrects the tampering with the Bible in way which restores its theology and narrative to coherence. Every prophet now is seen to preach the same God not apparently different gods and this is shown very smoothly in a way that is sensible. Listed prophets are now seen to come to all peoples not just Jews as coincides with the fact that there were prophets before there were Jews. Everything about the Qur'an breathes honesty and forthrightness.

So because whoever wrote the Qu’ran wrote it well and made it a syncretism of other beliefs, that makes it true? The book of Dave from Kansas is written even more magnificently and it corrects all theology.

[Jolthig]

Ah okay. Perhaps I may read up on them. My main arguments come from Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's Barahin-e-ahmadiyya series in 5 volumes thought I've read only the first 2 so far. Working on vol. 3

I appreciate your thoughtfulness in asking that question. I’ll try myself to look into some of the authors you’ve mentioned.

Yeah, I love philosophy and if I wanna debate you, I should research into yours in order to have better foundation and vice versa. We dont have to agree with one another, but we can increase each other's knowledge and have respect for one another for a better world

[Al Mumtahanah]

I will list some. The Qur'an is unique in its clarity and plainess and comprehensiveness

Then why do muslims vehemently disagree with eachother about what it says ?

How?

As for your other points... how is it better than e.g. Ovids Metamorpheses; about which we can say the same things PLUS it being written in a perfect dactylic hexameter ?

Ovid would disagree.

[Kowani]

Then I’m sure you wouldn’t mind summarizing those arguments for the sake of this discussion thread?

without either contradiction or "plot holes".

Oh. Oh, you actually believe that.

[Al Mumtahanah]

without either contradiction or "plot holes".

Oh. Oh, you actually believe that.

Are you doing the implied yet feigning expertise thing again?

[BettaMin]

I will list some. The Qur'an is unique in its clarity and plainess and comprehensiveness

Then why do muslims vehemently disagree with eachother about what it says ?

As for your other points... how is it better than e.g. Ovids Metamorpheses; about which we can say the same things PLUS it being written in a perfect dactylic hexameter ?

As to divergence on the written word of the Qur'an;

The Qur'an in its initial printing lacked punctuation. Since it was distributed across the caliphate with trained reciters who would've been able to transmit the intended punctuation, we can assume there is a "more correct" interpretation of where the punctuation should be, but since copies exist with different punctuation added later, it's difficult to say what the correct punctuation is. Differing placement of punctuation in the Qur'an can even be used to justify who is capable of making religious judgement. Otherwise, most differences are minor.

A lot of the differences in "what it says" can be narrowed down to how people choose to interpret the text; it doesn't cover everything and acknowledges that it does not cover everything, so people often disagree as to the implications of the text for things not directly covered. Some choose to read it literally, others see deeper meaning and other even multiple levels of meaning. The language is meant to be comprehensive, sure, but the language makes plenty of room for interpretation.

Some parts of the Qur'an disagree with other parts as well; read chronologically, the Qur'an goes from condemning drunkenness alone and acknowledging alcohol consumption in society, to outright condemning consumption of alcohol.

I really wouldn't call the Qur'an clear in and of itself. The Qur'an is not organized chronologically, so certain parts are from the Prophets (pbuh) time in Mecca, and others from his time in Medina. It takes knowing what characterizes the Meccan and Medinan periods to read the Qur'an chronologically, if that is what you intend. The Qur'an was orally revealed over time and then compiled much later as a book, so the book is perhaps not ordered as it was intended to be read/heard.

tl;dr - the Qur'an itself claims itself to be clear, comprehensive, and divine in origin, therefore, perfect. However, it's pretty easy to make the assertion that there is plenty of room for interpretation, even in Arabic, and its reproduction as a text isn't necessarily clear without understanding historical context. These claims can be made without disputing the notion that the Qur'an is 'perfect'.

I'm not Muslim, though, so make of that what you will.

[Turbofolkia]

Except for me so far.

I'm the only Muslim that can properly hold a debate with you guys, and even come to an understanding of your objections, appealing to rhetoric, and your philosophies. Plus, I read a lot on my faith so theres that.

Not that it's an arrogant praise of myself but it just seems true so far...

Dude you've been on damage control for these guys since, I'm not even sure 2018?17? and that's admirable. But you're not the face of IDT. You can see that yourself. Amin is. Amin's detestable -honestly, undoubtedly disgusting- version of Islam (I will not argue on whether that is "real Islam" or not at this point) is what the Islamic Community in this forum is known for (at least the active Islamic Community, Idk how many practicing or non-practicing Muslims refuse to show their faith on the forum). Which of course, helps my cause

I mean, this is a political forum so the loudest voices are going to be the very devout Muslims and those vehemently opposed to it. Those in the middle like secular Muslims and non-Muslims who are indifferent to Islam are not that bothered to discuss this topic for hours and hours.

I’m from a completely secularised Muslim background (the only time I’ve been to a mosque was for sightseeing purposes) so I’m neutral to indifferent about the faith.

[Jolthig]

...

Well, that was an interesting thing to wake up to from my lazy nap. Amin just got the banhammer again on his country. I don't see a specific reason why though, but I suspect it was his continued link dumpings, and careless advocacy of "extreme" shariah.

[Greater Cesnica]

...

Well, that was an interesting thing to wake up to from my lazy nap. Amin just got the banhammer again on his country. I don't see a specific reason why though, but I suspect it was his continued link dumpings, and careless advocacy of "extreme" shariah.

It appears Amin sparred with Farn.

[Samudera Darussalam]

...

Well, that was an interesting thing to wake up to from my lazy nap. Amin just got the banhammer again on his country. I don't see a specific reason why though, but I suspect it was his continued link dumpings, and careless advocacy of "extreme" shariah.

It appears Amin sparred with Farn.

........
Well, that's interesting. Where to look at?

[Jolthig]

...

Well, that was an interesting thing to wake up to from my lazy nap. Amin just got the banhammer again on his country. I don't see a specific reason why though, but I suspect it was his continued link dumpings, and careless advocacy of "extreme" shariah.

It appears Amin sparred with Farn.

Hey! Your back! Salaam

Where?

[Dresderstan]

...

Well, that was an interesting thing to wake up to from my lazy nap. Amin just got the banhammer again on his country. I don't see a specific reason why though, but I suspect it was his continued link dumpings, and careless advocacy of "extreme" shariah.

Weirdly I don't see mod red text, or any issue/report being addressed of his DEAT on Moderation.

BUT, I think this thread shouldn't stay too much on his DEAT, we don't need a threadjack talking about Amin now do we.

[Farnhamia]

It appears Amin sparred with Farn.

Hey! Your back! Salaam

Where?

In that Moderation thread where you were both arguing with me?

[Samudera Darussalam]

...

Well, that was an interesting thing to wake up to from my lazy nap. Amin just got the banhammer again on his country. I don't see a specific reason why though, but I suspect it was his continued link dumpings, and careless advocacy of "extreme" shariah.

Weirdly I don't see mod red text, or any issue/report being addressed of his DEAT on Moderation.

BUT, I think this thread shouldn't stay too much on his DEAT, we don't need a threadjack talking about Amin now do we.

Yeah, yer right.

Hey! Your back! Salaam

Where?

In that Moderation thread where you were both arguing with me?

Oh, I see.

[Jolthig]

Hey! Your back! Salaam

Where?

In that Moderation thread where you were both arguing with me?

Yeah, that was the first guess when GC said something.

Did you see my apology though later on in that thread?

[Jolthig]

...

Well, that was an interesting thing to wake up to from my lazy nap. Amin just got the banhammer again on his country. I don't see a specific reason why though, but I suspect it was his continued link dumpings, and careless advocacy of "extreme" shariah.

Weirdly I don't see mod red text, or any issue/report being addressed of his DEAT on Moderation.

BUT, I think this thread shouldn't stay too much on his DEAT, we don't need a threadjack talking about Amin now do we.

Well, I made a separate thread for this subject anyway in moderation so I suppose back to islam!

How about something positive? What is the favorite element of Islam that everybody likes? For me it is the Tawhid, (the fear of Allah) as this provides a Muslim with great inspiration to reform oneself based off one ones own love and fear for Allah.

[Hanafuridake]

What is the favorite element of Islam that everybody likes? For me it is the Tawhid, (the fear of Allah) as this provides a Muslim with great inspiration to reform oneself based off one ones own love and fear for Allah.

Probably the devotional aspect. This is probably the most attractive feature of Islam to me, the submission to a higher power.

[Jean-Paul Sartre]

Weirdly I don't see mod red text, or any issue/report being addressed of his DEAT on Moderation.

BUT, I think this thread shouldn't stay too much on his DEAT, we don't need a threadjack talking about Amin now do we.

Well, I made a separate thread for this subject anyway in moderation so I suppose back to islam!

How about something positive? What is the favorite element of Islam that everybody likes? For me it is the Tawhid, (the fear of Allah) as this provides a Muslim with great inspiration to reform oneself based off one ones own love and fear for Allah.

I appreciate that there’s no potential for future “prophets” in Islam. Makes talking about it easier.

[N7eternia]

The music, writing, and architecture.

[Jolthig]

Well, I made a separate thread for this subject anyway in moderation so I suppose back to islam!

How about something positive? What is the favorite element of Islam that everybody likes? For me it is the Tawhid, (the fear of Allah) as this provides a Muslim with great inspiration to reform oneself based off one ones own love and fear for Allah.

I appreciate that there’s no potential for future “prophets” in Islam. Makes talking about it easier.

Except in Ahmadiyya where its founder Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed to be a prophet and the Messiah subservient to Muhammad. So if you are discussing islam with me like how we discussed revelation the other day, that came from his series, Barahin-e-ahmadiyya.

[Al Mumtahanah]

Well, I made a separate thread for this subject anyway in moderation so I suppose back to islam!

How about something positive? What is the favorite element of Islam that everybody likes? For me it is the Tawhid, (the fear of Allah) as this provides a Muslim with great inspiration to reform oneself based off one ones own love and fear for Allah.

I appreciate that there’s no potential for future “prophets” in Islam. Makes talking about it easier.

He is Ahmadi so ironic you'd say that to him

[Jolthig]

I appreciate that there’s no potential for future “prophets” in Islam. Makes talking about it easier.

He is Ahmadi so ironic you'd say that to him

^

[Al Mumtahanah]

What is the favorite element of Islam that everybody likes? For me it is the Tawhid, (the fear of Allah) as this provides a Muslim with great inspiration to reform oneself based off one ones own love and fear for Allah.

Probably the devotional aspect. This is probably the most attractive feature of Islam to me, the submission to a higher power.

This