Islamic Discussion Thread ٥: Free Tajweed, Absolutely Halaal

[Al Mumtahanah]

When it comes to Hanbali fiqh they obviously would know better. If I cared to contest something they said I would research the fatwa in question and find if the way they went about it was consistent with their school, I would not just say it is absurd because that is not a defined basis for objecting to a fatwa except in Hanafi fiqh.

That still doesn't answer my question for why the Saudis say women shouldn't be allowed to drive. Islam does allow us to ask scholars whatever school they are questions as even the companions asked others questions if their hadith are authentic. Some companions dismissed some hadiths by others as not authentic in terms of dirayat:

Maḥmūd bin Ar-Rabī‘ narrates that I heard from ‘Itbān bin Mālik that the Prophet of Allāh said, Allāh the Exalted has prohibited the fire of hell upon all those who in full sincerity and to seek the pleasure of God alone, declare that there is none worthy of worship except Allāh. Maḥmūdra added, I told the above narration to some people in a gathering where Abū Ayyūbra was also present. Abū Ayyūbra denounced the narration and said, “By God, I cannot at all presume that the Holy Prophetsa might have said so.”

Can we not do the same for fatwas and scholar's ijtihads?

Through expertise, not personal sentiment.

[Jolthig]

That still doesn't answer my question for why the Saudis say women shouldn't be allowed to drive. Islam does allow us to ask scholars whatever school they are questions as even the companions asked others questions if their hadith are authentic. Some companions dismissed some hadiths by others as not authentic in terms of dirayat:



Can we not do the same for fatwas and scholar's ijtihads?

Through expertise, not personal sentiment.

But if one has a basic understanding of the Quran and Sunnah even a small amount, could they still not question fatwas and be shown the daleel for it?

[Al Mumtahanah]

Through expertise, not personal sentiment.

But if one has a basic understanding of the Quran and Sunnah even a small amount, could they still not question fatwas and be shown the daleel for it?

Yes of course, that's why fatawa articulate the daleel.

[Jolthig]

But if one has a basic understanding of the Quran and Sunnah even a small amount, could they still not question fatwas and be shown the daleel for it?

Yes of course, that's why fatawa articulate the daleel.

Alright, and let's say I offer counter daleel to that scholar? Not out of arrogance of course but out of humility.

[Al Mumtahanah]

Yes of course, that's why fatawa articulate the daleel.

Alright, and let's say I offer counter daleel to that scholar? Not out of arrogance of course but out of humility.

Have you studied their fiqh and various opinions and methodology of their most renowned scholars both contemporary and historical in order to understand their reasoning?

[Jolthig]

Alright, and let's say I offer counter daleel to that scholar? Not out of arrogance of course but out of humility.

Have you studied their fiqh and various opinions and methodology of their most renowned scholars both contemporary and historical in order to understand their reasoning?

No, but I was referring to the fatwa itself.

[Al Mumtahanah]

Have you studied their fiqh and various opinions and methodology of their most renowned scholars both contemporary and historical in order to understand their reasoning?

No, but I was referring to the fatwa itself.

The fatwa is a Hanbali fatwa, it doesn't pertain to any Muslims except Hanbalis and those living in Saudi Arabia

[Jolthig]

No, but I was referring to the fatwa itself.

The fatwa is a Hanbali fatwa, it doesn't pertain to any Muslims except Hanbalis and those living in Saudi Arabia

Hmm, okay. I think it would definitely help if I did study the schools and how they do their fatwas, but if I am ignorant, but sincere, questioning the authority behind their fatwas, I'd hope they give me a proper answer from their studies of the Holy Quran and Sunnah as well as the history behind them, showing me the isnads, riwayat, and dirayat.

[Jolthig]

I used to reject certain hadith, but now after studying their contexts and the isnads, and how historically accurate they are, I accept them, but anything that seems to go against common sense so as long as ones common sense is within the frame of Islam, I tend to question.

[Al Mumtahanah]

The fatwa is a Hanbali fatwa, it doesn't pertain to any Muslims except Hanbalis and those living in Saudi Arabia

Hmm, okay. I think it would definitely help if I did study the schools and how they do their fatwas, but if I am ignorant, but sincere, questioning the authority behind their fatwas, I'd hope they give me a proper answer from their studies of the Holy Quran and Sunnah as well as the history behind them, showing me the isnads, riwayat, and dirayat.

The schools are sonetimes diifferent but all are valid.

I used to reject certain hadith, but now after studying their contexts and the isnads, and how historically accurate they are, I accept them, but anything that seems to go against common sense so as long as ones common sense is within the frame of Islam, I tend to question.

Maturidis do that I believe, but you must remember that Ahadith are seldom verbatim and one sometimes must study multiple conflicting accpunts to discern what was probably said or done, and even when it is sound for teaching it often fails to be sound enough for fiqh. Scholars are very important here.

[Jolthig]

Hmm, okay. I think it would definitely help if I did study the schools and how they do their fatwas, but if I am ignorant, but sincere, questioning the authority behind their fatwas, I'd hope they give me a proper answer from their studies of the Holy Quran and Sunnah as well as the history behind them, showing me the isnads, riwayat, and dirayat.

The schools are sonetimes diifferent but all are valid.

I used to reject certain hadith, but now after studying their contexts and the isnads, and how historically accurate they are, I accept them, but anything that seems to go against common sense so as long as ones common sense is within the frame of Islam, I tend to question.

Maturidis do that I believe, but you must remember that Ahadith are seldom verbatim and one sometimes must study multiple conflicting accpunts to discern what was probably said or done, and even when it is sound for teaching it often fails to be sound enough for fiqh. Scholars are very important here.

Right, that is kinda where I am getting at. Because every human and that includes scholars are different and have their own biases to their cognition, so when doing ijtihad, as it is done by many scholars in the past, ijtihads should be done with prayer and wisdom, and when one is sure, a fatwa is made.

[Al Mumtahanah]

The schools are sonetimes diifferent but all are valid.



Maturidis do that I believe, but you must remember that Ahadith are seldom verbatim and one sometimes must study multiple conflicting accpunts to discern what was probably said or done, and even when it is sound for teaching it often fails to be sound enough for fiqh. Scholars are very important here.

Right, that is kinda where I am getting at. Because every human and that includes scholars are different and have their own biases to their cognition, so when doing ijtihad, as it is done by many scholars in the past, ijtihads should be done with prayer and wisdom, and when one is sure, a fatwa is made.

Fiqh is always improving because no one is infallible and study grows, great scholars agknowledge this.

[Jolthig]

Right, that is kinda where I am getting at. Because every human and that includes scholars are different and have their own biases to their cognition, so when doing ijtihad, as it is done by many scholars in the past, ijtihads should be done with prayer and wisdom, and when one is sure, a fatwa is made.

Fiqh is always improving because no one is infallible and study grows, great scholars agknowledge this.

Agreed.

[Al Mumtahanah]

Ilhan Omar just did a promotion where she was
Dancing
In a haram shirt
At a gay pride event

[Jolthig]

Ilhan Omar just did a promotion where she was
Dancing
In a haram shirt
At a gay pride event

Eh, I'd still rather have her in congress than one who opposes islam. Her presence in congress will encourage other muslims to join

[Al Mumtahanah]

Ilhan Omar just did a promotion where she was
Dancing
In a haram shirt
At a gay pride event

Eh, I'd still rather have her in congress than one who opposes islam. Her presence in congress will encourage other muslims to join

She does oppose Islam, she supports things that are capital offenses in Shariaa and she sets an abysmal example for other Muslims, she is 100% munafiq.

[Jolthig]

Eh, I'd still rather have her in congress than one who opposes islam. Her presence in congress will encourage other muslims to join

She does oppose Islam, she supports things that are capital offenses in Shariaa and she sets an abysmal example for other Muslims, she is 100% munafiq.

I don't approve of all the things she advocates for either, but she is way better than most politicians here and she still encourages other muslims to join the government. This is definitely takfir.

[Al Mumtahanah]

She does oppose Islam, she supports things that are capital offenses in Shariaa and she sets an abysmal example for other Muslims, she is 100% munafiq.

I don't approve of all the things she advocates for either, but she is way better than most politicians here and she still encourages other muslims to join the government. This is definitely takfir.

Yes it is, she serves Iblis, not Allah (swt).

[Jolthig]

I don't approve of all the things she advocates for either, but she is way better than most politicians here and she still encourages other muslims to join the government. This is definitely takfir.

Yes it is, she serves Iblis, not Allah (swt).

So...let me get this straight, because she advocates for liberal views like LGBT rights, she serves Iblis? Seriously?

Sure, yeah, they're sins in Islam, but that doesnt mean she is not helping to bring muslims into Congress. Her bravery and strong stand against constant harassment by the right wing media and the Islamophobic industry is admirable.

[Al Mumtahanah]

Yes it is, she serves Iblis, not Allah (swt).

So...let me get this straight, because she advocates for liberal views like LGBT rights, she serves Iblis? Seriously?

Sure, yeah, they're sins in Islam, but that doesnt mean she is not helping to bring muslims into Congress. Her bravery and strong stand against constant harassment by the right wing media and the Islamophobic industry is admirable.

Islam is a religion, a way of life, a morality, not just an identity. If you stand against the first three then you stand against Islam.

It is not just a sin in Islam, it is a crime. It is regular flogging in Shafi'i school unless married then it is stoning but some scholars say beheading. It is flogging first offense in Hanafi school, stoning for repeat offense. In Hanbali school it is stoning or throwing off a building or cliff at judge's discretion. In Maliki school it's stoning. Abu Bakr, may Allah be pleased with him, advocated burning.

Islamophobia is a term designed to align Muslims with gays as a political block

[Jolthig]

So...let me get this straight, because she advocates for liberal views like LGBT rights, she serves Iblis? Seriously?

Sure, yeah, they're sins in Islam, but that doesnt mean she is not helping to bring muslims into Congress. Her bravery and strong stand against constant harassment by the right wing media and the Islamophobic industry is admirable.

Islam is a religion, a way of life, a morality, not just an identity. If you stand against the first three then you stand against Islam.

It is not just a sin in Islam, it is a crime. It is regular flogging in Shafi'i school unless married then it is stoning but some scholars say beheading. It is flogging first offense in Hanafi school, stoning for repeat offense. In Hanbali school it is stoning or throwing off a building or cliff at judge's discretion. In Maliki school it's stoning. Abu Bakr, may Allah be pleased with him, advocated burning.

Islamophobia is a term designed to align Muslims with gays as a political block

That's not how the Shariah is to be established and you do know there are LGBT NSGers watching our discussion right?

While I may have changed my views on Shariah in alignment with Islamic doctrines, I still acknowledge no one in the west wants it because they aren't Muslim.

After all, there is no compulsion in religion.

Anyway, I'll be wrapping this discussion up so peace.

[Al Mumtahanah]

Islam is a religion, a way of life, a morality, not just an identity. If you stand against the first three then you stand against Islam.

It is not just a sin in Islam, it is a crime. It is regular flogging in Shafi'i school unless married then it is stoning but some scholars say beheading. It is flogging first offense in Hanafi school, stoning for repeat offense. In Hanbali school it is stoning or throwing off a building or cliff at judge's discretion. In Maliki school it's stoning. Abu Bakr, may Allah be pleased with him, advocated burning.

Islamophobia is a term designed to align Muslims with gays as a political block

That's not how the Shariah is to be established and you do know there are LGBT NSGers watching our discussion right?

While I may have changed my views on Shariah in alignment with Islamic doctrines, I still acknowledge no one in the west wants it because they aren't Muslim.

After all, there is no compulsion in religion.

Anyway, I'll be wrapping this discussion up so peace.

There might be adulterers watching the discussion as well and probably fornicators, so? These are crimes too.

Those who are not Muslims are not tried under Shariaa, but advocacy for this sort of thing is inexcusable. A non Muslim is not prosecuted for drinking, but a Muslim must not engage in alcohol advocacy

It was narrated by Jaabir (may Allah be pleased with him): "The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: 'There is nothing I fear for my ummah more than the deed of the people of Lut.'"
-Tirmidhi 1457

[A m e n r i a]

So...let me get this straight, because she advocates for liberal views like LGBT rights, she serves Iblis? Seriously?

Sure, yeah, they're sins in Islam, but that doesnt mean she is not helping to bring muslims into Congress. Her bravery and strong stand against constant harassment by the right wing media and the Islamophobic industry is admirable.

Islam is a religion, a way of life, a morality, not just an identity. If you stand against the first three then you stand against Islam.

It is not just a sin in Islam, it is a crime. It is regular flogging in Shafi'i school unless married then it is stoning but some scholars say beheading. It is flogging first offense in Hanafi school, stoning for repeat offense. In Hanbali school it is stoning or throwing off a building or cliff at judge's discretion. In Maliki school it's stoning. Abu Bakr, may Allah be pleased with him, advocated burning.

Islamophobia is a term designed to align Muslims with gays as a political block

The last bit is just silly. Supporters of LGBT are liberals while Muslims who are still in their right minds are either neutral or conservative...sometimes too conservative.

[Farnhamia]

So...let me get this straight, because she advocates for liberal views like LGBT rights, she serves Iblis? Seriously?

Sure, yeah, they're sins in Islam, but that doesnt mean she is not helping to bring muslims into Congress. Her bravery and strong stand against constant harassment by the right wing media and the Islamophobic industry is admirable.

Islam is a religion, a way of life, a morality, not just an identity. If you stand against the first three then you stand against Islam.

It is not just a sin in Islam, it is a crime. It is regular flogging in Shafi'i school unless married then it is stoning but some scholars say beheading. It is flogging first offense in Hanafi school, stoning for repeat offense. In Hanbali school it is stoning or throwing off a building or cliff at judge's discretion. In Maliki school it's stoning. Abu Bakr, may Allah be pleased with him, advocated burning.

Islamophobia is a term designed to align Muslims with gays as a political block

*** Warned for trolling. *** It's the implication that LGBT people deserve no support from Muslims and that they - either all or only Muslim gay people is irrelevant - deserve one or more of the mentioned punishments.

[Imbalistan]

Islam is a religion, a way of life, a morality, not just an identity. If you stand against the first three then you stand against Islam.

It is not just a sin in Islam, it is a crime. It is regular flogging in Shafi'i school unless married then it is stoning but some scholars say beheading. It is flogging first offense in Hanafi school, stoning for repeat offense. In Hanbali school it is stoning or throwing off a building or cliff at judge's discretion. In Maliki school it's stoning. Abu Bakr, may Allah be pleased with him, advocated burning.

Islamophobia is a term designed to align Muslims with gays as a political block

The last bit is just silly. Supporters of LGBT are liberals while Muslims who are still in their right minds are either neutral or conservative...sometimes too conservative.

I consider myself in a right mind, but I am muslim who supports LGBTQ+ rights.