NATION

PASSWORD

Islamic Discussion Thread ٥: Free Tajweed, Absolutely Halaal

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What denomination of Islam are you part of?

Sunni
27
29%
Salafi
6
6%
Shi'a
6
6%
Qur'ani
1
1%
Ahmadi
4
4%
IbaaDi
2
2%
Sufi (either Sunni or Shi'a)
9
10%
Non-Denominational
20
21%
Other
19
20%
 
Total votes : 94

User avatar
Kowani
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9261
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:32 pm

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:
Kowani wrote:We seem to have hit a brick wall. So, I’ll make it clear. If a master asks a slave to have sex, even if the slave consents, that is still rape.

No it's not. The slave can decline sex. The master can't force sex
Wow, look at all that reading comprehension-oh, wait, no.
Kowani wrote:Oh, no, we’re not doing this again.

So you're not gonna show me?[/quote]
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Concubinage in Al-Islam. Just something I found in discord, a really great article to read about how to have Halaal sex with one's slave.
Narcissistic (Hedonistic) Nihilist. Yes, I am edgy. I know.
Dorgival R. Seč of the NS Parliament!
Atheist and still proud of it. Technophile to the extreme.
Post-Capitalist, Post-Nationalist. Go beyond.
Oh, and a Pragmatist. Somehow.
Rights are functionally just privileges society has deemed important.
Neanderthaland wrote:
Christian Confederation wrote:Contraception can't fail if you don't have sex in term no unwanted pregnancy.

Your entire religion is based on the idea that this isn't true.

User avatar
El-Amin Caliphate
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15283
Founded: Apr 05, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:51 pm

Kowani wrote:
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:No it's not. The slave can decline sex. The master can't force sex
Wow, look at all that reading comprehension-oh, wait, no.
Kowani wrote:Oh, no, we’re not doing this again.

So you're not gonna show me?

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Concubinage in Al-Islam. Just something I found in discord, a really great article to read about how to have Halaal sex with one's slave.

The 5th paragraph of this article says:
"That said, consent as a moral consideration is not an irrelevant discussion. Early jurists did, in fact, prohibit a man on moral grounds from coercing his wife or concubine into sexual relations, as one of the purposes of lawful sexual relations is mutual pleasure."

A scholar sourced confirms this:
"Al-Shafi’i, may Allah have mercy on him, said:

وَهَكَذَا لَوْ كَانَتْ مُنْفَرِدَةً بِهِ أَوْ مَعَ أَمَةٍ لَهُ يَطَؤُهَا أُمِرَ بِتَقْوَى اللَّهِ تَعَالَى وَأَنْ لَا يَضْرِبَهَا فِي الْجِمَاعِ … فَأَمَّا الْجِمَاعُ فَمَوْضِعُ تَلَذُّذٍ وَلَا يُجْبَرُ أَحَدٌ عَلَيْهِ

Likewise, if a wife is by herself with him or a servant girl of his with whom he has sexual relations, he is commanded to fear Allah Almighty and to not strike her during intercourse… As for sexual intercourse, its purpose is pleasure and no one may be forced into it.

Source: al-Umm 5/203"

Here:
"It is unlawful for a Muslim man to harm his wife or his concubine, either physically or emotionally, particularly during sexual intercourse. Whoever harms another person, except in order to repel or prevent a greater harm, Allah will inflict him with harm equivalent to his sin on the Day of Judgment. Naturally, one should treat others as he or she would like to be treated in the Hereafter."

Here:
"As such, acts of sexual violence and assault, or ‘rape,’ are unlawful in Islam as these are obviously harmful and unnecessary acts. This legal mechanism, and not consent in itself, was the route through which sex crimes, committed in otherwise lawful sexual relationships like marriage, were forbidden by Islam.

Al-Nawawi writes:

فان كان يمكن جماعها من غير ضرر بها كان له ذلك وان كان لا يمكن جماعها الا بالاضرار بها لم يجز له جماعها

If it is possible to have intercourse with her without harming her, then he may do that. If it is not possible for him to have intercourse with her except by harming her, then he does not have permission to have intercourse with her.

Source: al-Majmū’ Sharḥ al-Muhadhab 16/409"

Here:
"If a wife refuses sex with her husband without a good reason, and it causes him to spend the night angry with her, she is subject to moral condemnation by the angels but no sanction is given for him to force himself upon her. She is condemned by the angels if her unwarranted refusal causes her husband distress, but not if her refusal is benign. Scholars have noted that even though she is condemned by the angels, this does not give permission for the husband to condemn her.

Ibn Hajar comments on this tradition, saying:

وَأَمَّا حَدِيثُ الْبَابِ فَلَيْسَ فِيهِ إِلَّا أَنَّ الْمَلَائِكَةَ تَفْعَلُ ذَلِكَ وَلَا يَلْزَمُ مِنْهُ جَوَازُهُ عَلَى الْإِطْلَاقِ

As for the tradition on this topic, there is nothing in it but that the angels do that (cursing). It does not necessitate permission for him in any respect.

Source: Fatḥ al-Bārī 4897"

Here:
"If a master abused, harmed, or injured his concubine, he would have violated his right to custodianship, the terms of his social contract. He would be required to set her free as a result and be subject to criminal punishment for his abuse."

Here's the barakah (blessing) in freeing concubines:
"It was further recommended for men to either marry their concubines or to give them in marriage to other suitable men, thereby upgrading her social status and ending his legal relationship with her as a concubine. In this way, concubinage was implicitly discouraged by the inverse recommendation to free and marry them.

Allah said:

وَأَنكِحُوا الْأَيَامَىٰ مِنكُمْ وَالصَّالِحِينَ مِنْ عِبَادِكُمْ وَإِمَائِكُمْ إِن يَكُونُوا فُقَرَاءَ يُغْنِهِمُ اللَّهُ مِن فَضْلِهِ وَاللَّهُ وَاسِعٌ عَلِيمٌ

Marry the unmarried among you and the righteous among your male and female slaves. If they should be poor, Allah will enrich them from His bounty, for Allah is encompassing and knowing.

Surat al-Nur 24:32

Abu Musa reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

إِذَا أَدَّبَ الرَّجُلُ أَمَتَهُ فَأَحْسَنَ تَأْدِيبَهَا وَعَلَّمَهَا فَأَحْسَنَ تَعْلِيمَهَا ثُمَّ أَعْتَقَهَا فَتَزَوَّجَهَا كَانَ لَهُ أَجْرَانِ

If a man teaches his servant girl good manners, educates her in the best manner, then emancipates her and marries her, he will have a double reward.

Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 3262, Grade: Muttafaqun Alayhi"

Here:
Ibn al-Athir comments on this tradition, saying:

يُرِيدُ الْإِحْسَانَ إِلَى الرَّقِيقِ وَالتَّخْفِيفَ عَنْهُمْ

He means to treat slaves in the best manner and to lighten their burden.

Source: al-Nihāyah fī Gharīb al-Ḥadīth 4/358


So yeah, idk where you're getting this "Islamic slavery allows raping concubines" from.
Last edited by El-Amin Caliphate on Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kubumba Tribe's sister nation. NOT A PUPPET! >w< In fact, this one came 1st.
Proud Full Member of the Council of Islamic Cooperation!^u^
I'm a (Pan) Islamist ;)
CLICK THIS
https://americanvision.org/948/theonomy-vs-theocracy/ wrote:God’s law cannot govern a nation where God’s law does not rule in the hearts of the people

Democracy and Freedom Index
Plaetopia wrote:Partly Free / Hybrid regime (score 4-6) El-Amin Caliphate (5.33)

User avatar
Kowani
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9261
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:56 pm

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:
Kowani wrote: Wow, look at all that reading comprehension-oh, wait, no.

So you're not gonna show me?

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Concubinage in Al-Islam. Just something I found in discord, a really great article to read about how to have Halaal sex with one's slave.

The 5th paragraph of this article says:
"That said, consent as a moral consideration is not an irrelevant discussion. Early jurists did, in fact, prohibit a man on moral grounds from coercing his wife or concubine into sexual relations, as one of the purposes of lawful sexual relations is mutual pleasure."

A scholar sourced confirms this:
"Al-Shafi’i, may Allah have mercy on him, said:

وَهَكَذَا لَوْ كَانَتْ مُنْفَرِدَةً بِهِ أَوْ مَعَ أَمَةٍ لَهُ يَطَؤُهَا أُمِرَ بِتَقْوَى اللَّهِ تَعَالَى وَأَنْ لَا يَضْرِبَهَا فِي الْجِمَاعِ … فَأَمَّا الْجِمَاعُ فَمَوْضِعُ تَلَذُّذٍ وَلَا يُجْبَرُ أَحَدٌ عَلَيْهِ

Likewise, if a wife is by herself with him or a servant girl of his with whom he has sexual relations, he is commanded to fear Allah Almighty and to not strike her during intercourse… As for sexual intercourse, its purpose is pleasure and no one may be forced into it.

Source: al-Umm 5/203"

Here:
"It is unlawful for a Muslim man to harm his wife or his concubine, either physically or emotionally, particularly during sexual intercourse. Whoever harms another person, except in order to repel or prevent a greater harm, Allah will inflict him with harm equivalent to his sin on the Day of Judgment. Naturally, one should treat others as he or she would like to be treated in the Hereafter."

Here:
"As such, acts of sexual violence and assault, or ‘rape,’ are unlawful in Islam as these are obviously harmful and unnecessary acts. This legal mechanism, and not consent in itself, was the route through which sex crimes, committed in otherwise lawful sexual relationships like marriage, were forbidden by Islam.

Al-Nawawi writes:

فان كان يمكن جماعها من غير ضرر بها كان له ذلك وان كان لا يمكن جماعها الا بالاضرار بها لم يجز له جماعها

If it is possible to have intercourse with her without harming her, then he may do that. If it is not possible for him to have intercourse with her except by harming her, then he does not have permission to have intercourse with her.

Source: al-Majmū’ Sharḥ al-Muhadhab 16/409"

Here:
"If a wife refuses sex with her husband without a good reason, and it causes him to spend the night angry with her, she is subject to moral condemnation by the angels but no sanction is given for him to force himself upon her. She is condemned by the angels if her unwarranted refusal causes her husband distress, but not if her refusal is benign. Scholars have noted that even though she is condemned by the angels, this does not give permission for the husband to condemn her.

Ibn Hajar comments on this tradition, saying:

وَأَمَّا حَدِيثُ الْبَابِ فَلَيْسَ فِيهِ إِلَّا أَنَّ الْمَلَائِكَةَ تَفْعَلُ ذَلِكَ وَلَا يَلْزَمُ مِنْهُ جَوَازُهُ عَلَى الْإِطْلَاقِ

As for the tradition on this topic, there is nothing in it but that the angels do that (cursing). It does not necessitate permission for him in any respect.

Source: Fatḥ al-Bārī 4897"

Here:
"If a master abused, harmed, or injured his concubine, he would have violated his right to custodianship, the terms of his social contract. He would be required to set her free as a result and be subject to criminal punishment for his abuse."

Here's the barakah (blessing) in freeing concubines:
"It was further recommended for men to either marry their concubines or to give them in marriage to other suitable men, thereby upgrading her social status and ending his legal relationship with her as a concubine. In this way, concubinage was implicitly discouraged by the inverse recommendation to free and marry them.

Allah said:

وَأَنكِحُوا الْأَيَامَىٰ مِنكُمْ وَالصَّالِحِينَ مِنْ عِبَادِكُمْ وَإِمَائِكُمْ إِن يَكُونُوا فُقَرَاءَ يُغْنِهِمُ اللَّهُ مِن فَضْلِهِ وَاللَّهُ وَاسِعٌ عَلِيمٌ

Marry the unmarried among you and the righteous among your male and female slaves. If they should be poor, Allah will enrich them from His bounty, for Allah is encompassing and knowing.

Surat al-Nur 24:32

Abu Musa reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

إِذَا أَدَّبَ الرَّجُلُ أَمَتَهُ فَأَحْسَنَ تَأْدِيبَهَا وَعَلَّمَهَا فَأَحْسَنَ تَعْلِيمَهَا ثُمَّ أَعْتَقَهَا فَتَزَوَّجَهَا كَانَ لَهُ أَجْرَانِ

If a man teaches his servant girl good manners, educates her in the best manner, then emancipates her and marries her, he will have a double reward.

Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 3262, Grade: Muttafaqun Alayhi"

Here:
Ibn al-Athir comments on this tradition, saying:

يُرِيدُ الْإِحْسَانَ إِلَى الرَّقِيقِ وَالتَّخْفِيفَ عَنْهُمْ

He means to treat slaves in the best manner and to lighten their burden.

Source: al-Nihāyah fī Gharīb al-Ḥadīth 4/358


So yeah, idk where you're getting this "Islamic slavery allows raping concubines" from.

Wow. None of that actually addressed my argument. If sex with a concubine or slave happens, consent is irrelevant-because it’s still rape anyway. The fact that the master cannot legally force himself on her is irrelevant-because sec in those kinds of situations is inherently rape.
Narcissistic (Hedonistic) Nihilist. Yes, I am edgy. I know.
Dorgival R. Seč of the NS Parliament!
Atheist and still proud of it. Technophile to the extreme.
Post-Capitalist, Post-Nationalist. Go beyond.
Oh, and a Pragmatist. Somehow.
Rights are functionally just privileges society has deemed important.
Neanderthaland wrote:
Christian Confederation wrote:Contraception can't fail if you don't have sex in term no unwanted pregnancy.

Your entire religion is based on the idea that this isn't true.

User avatar
El-Amin Caliphate
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15283
Founded: Apr 05, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:57 pm

Kowani wrote:
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:
The 5th paragraph of this article says:
"That said, consent as a moral consideration is not an irrelevant discussion. Early jurists did, in fact, prohibit a man on moral grounds from coercing his wife or concubine into sexual relations, as one of the purposes of lawful sexual relations is mutual pleasure."

A scholar sourced confirms this:
"Al-Shafi’i, may Allah have mercy on him, said:

وَهَكَذَا لَوْ كَانَتْ مُنْفَرِدَةً بِهِ أَوْ مَعَ أَمَةٍ لَهُ يَطَؤُهَا أُمِرَ بِتَقْوَى اللَّهِ تَعَالَى وَأَنْ لَا يَضْرِبَهَا فِي الْجِمَاعِ … فَأَمَّا الْجِمَاعُ فَمَوْضِعُ تَلَذُّذٍ وَلَا يُجْبَرُ أَحَدٌ عَلَيْهِ

Likewise, if a wife is by herself with him or a servant girl of his with whom he has sexual relations, he is commanded to fear Allah Almighty and to not strike her during intercourse… As for sexual intercourse, its purpose is pleasure and no one may be forced into it.

Source: al-Umm 5/203"

Here:
"It is unlawful for a Muslim man to harm his wife or his concubine, either physically or emotionally, particularly during sexual intercourse. Whoever harms another person, except in order to repel or prevent a greater harm, Allah will inflict him with harm equivalent to his sin on the Day of Judgment. Naturally, one should treat others as he or she would like to be treated in the Hereafter."

Here:
"As such, acts of sexual violence and assault, or ‘rape,’ are unlawful in Islam as these are obviously harmful and unnecessary acts. This legal mechanism, and not consent in itself, was the route through which sex crimes, committed in otherwise lawful sexual relationships like marriage, were forbidden by Islam.

Al-Nawawi writes:

فان كان يمكن جماعها من غير ضرر بها كان له ذلك وان كان لا يمكن جماعها الا بالاضرار بها لم يجز له جماعها

If it is possible to have intercourse with her without harming her, then he may do that. If it is not possible for him to have intercourse with her except by harming her, then he does not have permission to have intercourse with her.

Source: al-Majmū’ Sharḥ al-Muhadhab 16/409"

Here:
"If a wife refuses sex with her husband without a good reason, and it causes him to spend the night angry with her, she is subject to moral condemnation by the angels but no sanction is given for him to force himself upon her. She is condemned by the angels if her unwarranted refusal causes her husband distress, but not if her refusal is benign. Scholars have noted that even though she is condemned by the angels, this does not give permission for the husband to condemn her.

Ibn Hajar comments on this tradition, saying:

وَأَمَّا حَدِيثُ الْبَابِ فَلَيْسَ فِيهِ إِلَّا أَنَّ الْمَلَائِكَةَ تَفْعَلُ ذَلِكَ وَلَا يَلْزَمُ مِنْهُ جَوَازُهُ عَلَى الْإِطْلَاقِ

As for the tradition on this topic, there is nothing in it but that the angels do that (cursing). It does not necessitate permission for him in any respect.

Source: Fatḥ al-Bārī 4897"

Here:
"If a master abused, harmed, or injured his concubine, he would have violated his right to custodianship, the terms of his social contract. He would be required to set her free as a result and be subject to criminal punishment for his abuse."

Here's the barakah (blessing) in freeing concubines:
"It was further recommended for men to either marry their concubines or to give them in marriage to other suitable men, thereby upgrading her social status and ending his legal relationship with her as a concubine. In this way, concubinage was implicitly discouraged by the inverse recommendation to free and marry them.

Allah said:

وَأَنكِحُوا الْأَيَامَىٰ مِنكُمْ وَالصَّالِحِينَ مِنْ عِبَادِكُمْ وَإِمَائِكُمْ إِن يَكُونُوا فُقَرَاءَ يُغْنِهِمُ اللَّهُ مِن فَضْلِهِ وَاللَّهُ وَاسِعٌ عَلِيمٌ

Marry the unmarried among you and the righteous among your male and female slaves. If they should be poor, Allah will enrich them from His bounty, for Allah is encompassing and knowing.

Surat al-Nur 24:32

Abu Musa reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

إِذَا أَدَّبَ الرَّجُلُ أَمَتَهُ فَأَحْسَنَ تَأْدِيبَهَا وَعَلَّمَهَا فَأَحْسَنَ تَعْلِيمَهَا ثُمَّ أَعْتَقَهَا فَتَزَوَّجَهَا كَانَ لَهُ أَجْرَانِ

If a man teaches his servant girl good manners, educates her in the best manner, then emancipates her and marries her, he will have a double reward.

Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 3262, Grade: Muttafaqun Alayhi"

Here:
Ibn al-Athir comments on this tradition, saying:

يُرِيدُ الْإِحْسَانَ إِلَى الرَّقِيقِ وَالتَّخْفِيفَ عَنْهُمْ

He means to treat slaves in the best manner and to lighten their burden.

Source: al-Nihāyah fī Gharīb al-Ḥadīth 4/358


So yeah, idk where you're getting this "Islamic slavery allows raping concubines" from.

Wow. None of that actually addressed my argument. If sex with a concubine or slave happens, consent is irrelevant-because it’s still rape anyway. The fact that the master cannot legally force himself on her is irrelevant-because sec in those kinds of situations is inherently rape.

How?
Kubumba Tribe's sister nation. NOT A PUPPET! >w< In fact, this one came 1st.
Proud Full Member of the Council of Islamic Cooperation!^u^
I'm a (Pan) Islamist ;)
CLICK THIS
https://americanvision.org/948/theonomy-vs-theocracy/ wrote:God’s law cannot govern a nation where God’s law does not rule in the hearts of the people

Democracy and Freedom Index
Plaetopia wrote:Partly Free / Hybrid regime (score 4-6) El-Amin Caliphate (5.33)

User avatar
Kowani
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9261
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:00 pm

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:
Kowani wrote:Wow. None of that actually addressed my argument. If sex with a concubine or slave happens, consent is irrelevant-because it’s still rape anyway. The fact that the master cannot legally force himself on her is irrelevant-because sec in those kinds of situations is inherently rape.

How?

If a teacher has sex with a kid, but the kids agreed to it, is that rape?
Narcissistic (Hedonistic) Nihilist. Yes, I am edgy. I know.
Dorgival R. Seč of the NS Parliament!
Atheist and still proud of it. Technophile to the extreme.
Post-Capitalist, Post-Nationalist. Go beyond.
Oh, and a Pragmatist. Somehow.
Rights are functionally just privileges society has deemed important.
Neanderthaland wrote:
Christian Confederation wrote:Contraception can't fail if you don't have sex in term no unwanted pregnancy.

Your entire religion is based on the idea that this isn't true.

User avatar
El-Amin Caliphate
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15283
Founded: Apr 05, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:00 pm

Kowani wrote:
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:How?

If a teacher has sex with a kid, but the kids agreed to it, is that rape?

How old is the kid?
Kubumba Tribe's sister nation. NOT A PUPPET! >w< In fact, this one came 1st.
Proud Full Member of the Council of Islamic Cooperation!^u^
I'm a (Pan) Islamist ;)
CLICK THIS
https://americanvision.org/948/theonomy-vs-theocracy/ wrote:God’s law cannot govern a nation where God’s law does not rule in the hearts of the people

Democracy and Freedom Index
Plaetopia wrote:Partly Free / Hybrid regime (score 4-6) El-Amin Caliphate (5.33)

User avatar
Kowani
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9261
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:01 pm

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:
Kowani wrote:If a teacher has sex with a kid, but the kids agreed to it, is that rape?

How old is the kid?

…Does it really matter?
Narcissistic (Hedonistic) Nihilist. Yes, I am edgy. I know.
Dorgival R. Seč of the NS Parliament!
Atheist and still proud of it. Technophile to the extreme.
Post-Capitalist, Post-Nationalist. Go beyond.
Oh, and a Pragmatist. Somehow.
Rights are functionally just privileges society has deemed important.
Neanderthaland wrote:
Christian Confederation wrote:Contraception can't fail if you don't have sex in term no unwanted pregnancy.

Your entire religion is based on the idea that this isn't true.

User avatar
El-Amin Caliphate
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15283
Founded: Apr 05, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:02 pm

Kowani wrote:
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:How old is the kid?

…Does it really matter?

I'd say so, yes.
Kubumba Tribe's sister nation. NOT A PUPPET! >w< In fact, this one came 1st.
Proud Full Member of the Council of Islamic Cooperation!^u^
I'm a (Pan) Islamist ;)
CLICK THIS
https://americanvision.org/948/theonomy-vs-theocracy/ wrote:God’s law cannot govern a nation where God’s law does not rule in the hearts of the people

Democracy and Freedom Index
Plaetopia wrote:Partly Free / Hybrid regime (score 4-6) El-Amin Caliphate (5.33)

User avatar
Kowani
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9261
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:09 pm

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:
Kowani wrote:…Does it really matter?

I'd say so, yes.

Why?
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Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:12 pm

Kowani wrote:
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:I'd say so, yes.

Why?

Because age shows maturity level and understanding of sex. If the child is a minor and doesn't understand sex then obvs that's a problem. But if they're high school (as in senior) or college age then they have a good (?) understanding of sex and are mature.
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Postby Kowani » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:23 pm

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:
Kowani wrote:Why?

Because age shows maturity level and understanding of sex. If the child is a minor and doesn't understand sex then obvs that's a problem. But if they're high school (as in senior) or college age then they have a good (?) understanding of sex and are mature.

Okay, those are no longer children.
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Neanderthaland wrote:
Christian Confederation wrote:Contraception can't fail if you don't have sex in term no unwanted pregnancy.

Your entire religion is based on the idea that this isn't true.

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Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:28 pm

Kowani wrote:
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Because age shows maturity level and understanding of sex. If the child is a minor and doesn't understand sex then obvs that's a problem. But if they're high school (as in senior) or college age then they have a good (?) understanding of sex and are mature.

Okay, those are no longer children.

Um, neither are concubines.
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Postby Kowani » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:54 pm

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:
Kowani wrote:Okay, those are no longer children.

Um, neither are concubines.

It’s allegorical.
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Neanderthaland wrote:
Christian Confederation wrote:Contraception can't fail if you don't have sex in term no unwanted pregnancy.

Your entire religion is based on the idea that this isn't true.

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Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:54 pm

Kowani wrote:
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Um, neither are concubines.

It’s allegorical.

Ok. What point are you making tho?
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Postby Jack Thomas Lang » Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:05 am

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Because age shows maturity level and understanding of sex. If the child is a minor and doesn't understand sex then obvs that's a problem. But if they're high school (as in senior) or college age then they have a good (?) understanding of sex and are mature.

Just to weigh in briefly, the reason why sex between children and teachers is usually illegal is not because students don't understand sex (In Australia sex is legal after 16, but sexual relations between teachers and students aren't). It's because of the power imbalance. A teacher holds power over the student, they are not equals and they don't share the same legal rights. Likewise with concubines and slaves.
Last edited by Jack Thomas Lang on Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:05 am

Jack Thomas Lang wrote:
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Because age shows maturity level and understanding of sex. If the child is a minor and doesn't understand sex then obvs that's a problem. But if they're high school (as in senior) or college age then they have a good (?) understanding of sex and are mature.

Just to weigh in briefly, the reason why sex between children and teachers is usually illegal is not because students don't understand sex (In Australia sex is legal after 16, but sexual relations between teachers and students aren't). It's because of the power imbalance. A teacher holds power over the student, they are not equals and they don't share the same legal rights. Likewise with concubines and slaves.

Hence why Al-Islam gives slaves many rights to counteract that. If the slave doesn't wants to have sex with their master then the master should lay off.
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Postby Diopolis » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:25 am

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:
Kowani wrote:Why?

Because age shows maturity level and understanding of sex. If the child is a minor and doesn't understand sex then obvs that's a problem. But if they're high school (as in senior) or college age then they have a good (?) understanding of sex and are mature.

If the teacher has sex with their own student, is that OK(or at least not worse than other fornication)?
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Postby Diopolis » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:36 am

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:
Kowani wrote: Wow, look at all that reading comprehension-oh, wait, no.

So you're not gonna show me?

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Concubinage in Al-Islam. Just something I found in discord, a really great article to read about how to have Halaal sex with one's slave.

The 5th paragraph of this article says:
"That said, consent as a moral consideration is not an irrelevant discussion. Early jurists did, in fact, prohibit a man on moral grounds from coercing his wife or concubine into sexual relations, as one of the purposes of lawful sexual relations is mutual pleasure."

A scholar sourced confirms this:
"Al-Shafi’i, may Allah have mercy on him, said:

وَهَكَذَا لَوْ كَانَتْ مُنْفَرِدَةً بِهِ أَوْ مَعَ أَمَةٍ لَهُ يَطَؤُهَا أُمِرَ بِتَقْوَى اللَّهِ تَعَالَى وَأَنْ لَا يَضْرِبَهَا فِي الْجِمَاعِ … فَأَمَّا الْجِمَاعُ فَمَوْضِعُ تَلَذُّذٍ وَلَا يُجْبَرُ أَحَدٌ عَلَيْهِ

Likewise, if a wife is by herself with him or a servant girl of his with whom he has sexual relations, he is commanded to fear Allah Almighty and to not strike her during intercourse… As for sexual intercourse, its purpose is pleasure and no one may be forced into it.

Source: al-Umm 5/203"

Here:
"It is unlawful for a Muslim man to harm his wife or his concubine, either physically or emotionally, particularly during sexual intercourse. Whoever harms another person, except in order to repel or prevent a greater harm, Allah will inflict him with harm equivalent to his sin on the Day of Judgment. Naturally, one should treat others as he or she would like to be treated in the Hereafter."

Here:
"As such, acts of sexual violence and assault, or ‘rape,’ are unlawful in Islam as these are obviously harmful and unnecessary acts. This legal mechanism, and not consent in itself, was the route through which sex crimes, committed in otherwise lawful sexual relationships like marriage, were forbidden by Islam.

Al-Nawawi writes:

فان كان يمكن جماعها من غير ضرر بها كان له ذلك وان كان لا يمكن جماعها الا بالاضرار بها لم يجز له جماعها

If it is possible to have intercourse with her without harming her, then he may do that. If it is not possible for him to have intercourse with her except by harming her, then he does not have permission to have intercourse with her.

Source: al-Majmū’ Sharḥ al-Muhadhab 16/409"

Here:
"If a wife refuses sex with her husband without a good reason, and it causes him to spend the night angry with her, she is subject to moral condemnation by the angels but no sanction is given for him to force himself upon her. She is condemned by the angels if her unwarranted refusal causes her husband distress, but not if her refusal is benign. Scholars have noted that even though she is condemned by the angels, this does not give permission for the husband to condemn her.

Ibn Hajar comments on this tradition, saying:

وَأَمَّا حَدِيثُ الْبَابِ فَلَيْسَ فِيهِ إِلَّا أَنَّ الْمَلَائِكَةَ تَفْعَلُ ذَلِكَ وَلَا يَلْزَمُ مِنْهُ جَوَازُهُ عَلَى الْإِطْلَاقِ

As for the tradition on this topic, there is nothing in it but that the angels do that (cursing). It does not necessitate permission for him in any respect.

Source: Fatḥ al-Bārī 4897"

Here:
"If a master abused, harmed, or injured his concubine, he would have violated his right to custodianship, the terms of his social contract. He would be required to set her free as a result and be subject to criminal punishment for his abuse."

Here's the barakah (blessing) in freeing concubines:
"It was further recommended for men to either marry their concubines or to give them in marriage to other suitable men, thereby upgrading her social status and ending his legal relationship with her as a concubine. In this way, concubinage was implicitly discouraged by the inverse recommendation to free and marry them.

Allah said:

وَأَنكِحُوا الْأَيَامَىٰ مِنكُمْ وَالصَّالِحِينَ مِنْ عِبَادِكُمْ وَإِمَائِكُمْ إِن يَكُونُوا فُقَرَاءَ يُغْنِهِمُ اللَّهُ مِن فَضْلِهِ وَاللَّهُ وَاسِعٌ عَلِيمٌ

Marry the unmarried among you and the righteous among your male and female slaves. If they should be poor, Allah will enrich them from His bounty, for Allah is encompassing and knowing.

Surat al-Nur 24:32

Abu Musa reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

إِذَا أَدَّبَ الرَّجُلُ أَمَتَهُ فَأَحْسَنَ تَأْدِيبَهَا وَعَلَّمَهَا فَأَحْسَنَ تَعْلِيمَهَا ثُمَّ أَعْتَقَهَا فَتَزَوَّجَهَا كَانَ لَهُ أَجْرَانِ

If a man teaches his servant girl good manners, educates her in the best manner, then emancipates her and marries her, he will have a double reward.

Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 3262, Grade: Muttafaqun Alayhi"

Here:
Ibn al-Athir comments on this tradition, saying:

يُرِيدُ الْإِحْسَانَ إِلَى الرَّقِيقِ وَالتَّخْفِيفَ عَنْهُمْ

He means to treat slaves in the best manner and to lighten their burden.

Source: al-Nihāyah fī Gharīb al-Ḥadīth 4/358


So yeah, idk where you're getting this "Islamic slavery allows raping concubines" from.

You didn't expect me to actually read that link, did you?
Because
Your own source wrote:Her silence is her consent.

Your source explains that Islam forbids a master to use physical force to compel sex from a slave. I'll believe it there- and it's probably significantly more protection than slaves got in pre-Islamic Arabia- but it also explains right there that slaves(well, people in general, but Islam separately prohibits non-marital sex with anyone other than your own slave) are presumed to have consented as long as they didn't verbally object. That leaves plenty of room for sanctioning rape.
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Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:51 am

Diopolis wrote:
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Because age shows maturity level and understanding of sex. If the child is a minor and doesn't understand sex then obvs that's a problem. But if they're high school (as in senior) or college age then they have a good (?) understanding of sex and are mature.

If the teacher has sex with their own student, is that OK(or at least not worse than other fornication)?

I think my post already answers your question. Of course it's still a sin assuming the teacher and student aren't married (in which case the teacher probs shouldn't be teaching said student).
Diopolis wrote:
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:
The 5th paragraph of this article says:
"That said, consent as a moral consideration is not an irrelevant discussion. Early jurists did, in fact, prohibit a man on moral grounds from coercing his wife or concubine into sexual relations, as one of the purposes of lawful sexual relations is mutual pleasure."

A scholar sourced confirms this:
"Al-Shafi’i, may Allah have mercy on him, said:

وَهَكَذَا لَوْ كَانَتْ مُنْفَرِدَةً بِهِ أَوْ مَعَ أَمَةٍ لَهُ يَطَؤُهَا أُمِرَ بِتَقْوَى اللَّهِ تَعَالَى وَأَنْ لَا يَضْرِبَهَا فِي الْجِمَاعِ … فَأَمَّا الْجِمَاعُ فَمَوْضِعُ تَلَذُّذٍ وَلَا يُجْبَرُ أَحَدٌ عَلَيْهِ

Likewise, if a wife is by herself with him or a servant girl of his with whom he has sexual relations, he is commanded to fear Allah Almighty and to not strike her during intercourse… As for sexual intercourse, its purpose is pleasure and no one may be forced into it.

Source: al-Umm 5/203"

Here:
"It is unlawful for a Muslim man to harm his wife or his concubine, either physically or emotionally, particularly during sexual intercourse. Whoever harms another person, except in order to repel or prevent a greater harm, Allah will inflict him with harm equivalent to his sin on the Day of Judgment. Naturally, one should treat others as he or she would like to be treated in the Hereafter."

Here:
"As such, acts of sexual violence and assault, or ‘rape,’ are unlawful in Islam as these are obviously harmful and unnecessary acts. This legal mechanism, and not consent in itself, was the route through which sex crimes, committed in otherwise lawful sexual relationships like marriage, were forbidden by Islam.

Al-Nawawi writes:

فان كان يمكن جماعها من غير ضرر بها كان له ذلك وان كان لا يمكن جماعها الا بالاضرار بها لم يجز له جماعها

If it is possible to have intercourse with her without harming her, then he may do that. If it is not possible for him to have intercourse with her except by harming her, then he does not have permission to have intercourse with her.

Source: al-Majmū’ Sharḥ al-Muhadhab 16/409"

Here:
"If a wife refuses sex with her husband without a good reason, and it causes him to spend the night angry with her, she is subject to moral condemnation by the angels but no sanction is given for him to force himself upon her. She is condemned by the angels if her unwarranted refusal causes her husband distress, but not if her refusal is benign. Scholars have noted that even though she is condemned by the angels, this does not give permission for the husband to condemn her.

Ibn Hajar comments on this tradition, saying:

وَأَمَّا حَدِيثُ الْبَابِ فَلَيْسَ فِيهِ إِلَّا أَنَّ الْمَلَائِكَةَ تَفْعَلُ ذَلِكَ وَلَا يَلْزَمُ مِنْهُ جَوَازُهُ عَلَى الْإِطْلَاقِ

As for the tradition on this topic, there is nothing in it but that the angels do that (cursing). It does not necessitate permission for him in any respect.

Source: Fatḥ al-Bārī 4897"

Here:
"If a master abused, harmed, or injured his concubine, he would have violated his right to custodianship, the terms of his social contract. He would be required to set her free as a result and be subject to criminal punishment for his abuse."

Here's the barakah (blessing) in freeing concubines:
"It was further recommended for men to either marry their concubines or to give them in marriage to other suitable men, thereby upgrading her social status and ending his legal relationship with her as a concubine. In this way, concubinage was implicitly discouraged by the inverse recommendation to free and marry them.

Allah said:

وَأَنكِحُوا الْأَيَامَىٰ مِنكُمْ وَالصَّالِحِينَ مِنْ عِبَادِكُمْ وَإِمَائِكُمْ إِن يَكُونُوا فُقَرَاءَ يُغْنِهِمُ اللَّهُ مِن فَضْلِهِ وَاللَّهُ وَاسِعٌ عَلِيمٌ

Marry the unmarried among you and the righteous among your male and female slaves. If they should be poor, Allah will enrich them from His bounty, for Allah is encompassing and knowing.

Surat al-Nur 24:32

Abu Musa reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

إِذَا أَدَّبَ الرَّجُلُ أَمَتَهُ فَأَحْسَنَ تَأْدِيبَهَا وَعَلَّمَهَا فَأَحْسَنَ تَعْلِيمَهَا ثُمَّ أَعْتَقَهَا فَتَزَوَّجَهَا كَانَ لَهُ أَجْرَانِ

If a man teaches his servant girl good manners, educates her in the best manner, then emancipates her and marries her, he will have a double reward.

Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 3262, Grade: Muttafaqun Alayhi"

Here:
Ibn al-Athir comments on this tradition, saying:

يُرِيدُ الْإِحْسَانَ إِلَى الرَّقِيقِ وَالتَّخْفِيفَ عَنْهُمْ

He means to treat slaves in the best manner and to lighten their burden.

Source: al-Nihāyah fī Gharīb al-Ḥadīth 4/358


So yeah, idk where you're getting this "Islamic slavery allows raping concubines" from.

You didn't expect me to actually read that link, did you?

I did, because that's how one gets new information and how y'all get a better understanding of Al-Islam. Please read the entire article before asking or commenting.
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Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:57 am

The Xenopolis Confederation
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Islamic slavery is not obligatory in the religion. It is optional yet discouraged, as in it's better for you to not have a slave. But if you do have a slave, that's somewhat ok as well provided that you treat them according to Shari'ah (more on that here):
Slavery in Al-Islam:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wic1CdJKufY
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4sVo_-j2THE
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pn1ubtoL95c
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h9d6sZJRNYQ
https://islamqa.info/en/94840
http://islam-wa-sunnah.com/fatwa/index. ... definition
https://www.al-islam.org/slavery-from-i ... ks-slavery
http://www.islamweb.net/en/article/1174 ... of-slavery
http://islam-wa-sunnah.com/fatwa/index. ... definition
https://abuaminaelias.com/sexual-consen ... -in-islam/

This also goes into sex with slaves. If a Muslim does own a slave, he/she has the choice to have sexual relations with them or to not do so. However, if the Muslim master does choose to have sex with their slave, it must be consensual between the master and slave. The Muslim master cannot force the slave yo have sex with him/her in any way. That is Haraam (unlawful/sinful) and punishable (more on that here):
https://sunnah.com/urn/414630
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/89/10
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Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:59 am

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Don't you mean "misunderstood"? Regardless, you'd be wrong. Muslims throughout the post-Raashidun years weren't misunderstood in owning slaves, they were misunderstood in how to treat them. And even then mistreatment wasn't constant (albeit not fully within Shari'ah either afaik).

If they owned slaves, they were doing something discouraged by the Quran were they not?

Discouraged =/= forbidden
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Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:04 am

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:If they owned slaves, they were doing something discouraged by the Quran were they not?

Discouraged =/= forbidden

Even then. A good Muslim does not own slaves then. And if the Quran discouraged slavery, you'd think majority Muslim nations would be among the first nations to ban slavery, rather than among the last as they are now.
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*I'm sort of questioning my gender, thinking I might be gender dysphoric, so if you want, I would prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

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El-Amin Caliphate
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Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:07 am

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Discouraged =/= forbidden

Even then. A good Muslim does not own slaves then. And if the Quran discouraged slavery, you'd think majority Muslim nations would be among the first nations to ban slavery, rather than among the last as they are now.

If they actually followed Shari'ah to its fullest extent, Islamic* slavery wouldn't be banned (unless for a good reason).

*I'm not talking about any other kind of slavery except Islamic slavery. That clears of confusion so please specify that
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The Xenopolis Confederation
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Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:08 am

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:The Xenopolis Confederation
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Islamic slavery is not obligatory in the religion. It is optional yet discouraged, as in it's better for you to not have a slave. But if you do have a slave, that's somewhat ok as well provided that you treat them according to Shari'ah (more on that here):
Slavery in Al-Islam:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wic1CdJKufY
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4sVo_-j2THE
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pn1ubtoL95c
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h9d6sZJRNYQ
https://islamqa.info/en/94840
http://islam-wa-sunnah.com/fatwa/index. ... definition
https://www.al-islam.org/slavery-from-i ... ks-slavery
http://www.islamweb.net/en/article/1174 ... of-slavery
http://islam-wa-sunnah.com/fatwa/index. ... definition
https://abuaminaelias.com/sexual-consen ... -in-islam/

This also goes into sex with slaves. If a Muslim does own a slave, he/she has the choice to have sexual relations with them or to not do so. However, if the Muslim master does choose to have sex with their slave, it must be consensual between the master and slave. The Muslim master cannot force the slave yo have sex with him/her in any way. That is Haraam (unlawful/sinful) and punishable (more on that here):
https://sunnah.com/urn/414630
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/89/10

Amin, I have a question for you. Is it good that most of the world has abolished slavery, in your opinion?
Last edited by The Xenopolis Confederation on Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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NS Stats should be taken with a pinch of salt, but they're not too far off.
I'm an 18 year old Australian male* who tries to think about things but fails, as we all do. I'll regret this in 2 years tops.

*I'm sort of questioning my gender, thinking I might be gender dysphoric, so if you want, I would prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

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El-Amin Caliphate
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Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:09 am

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:

Amin, I have a question for you. Is it good that most of the world has abolished slavery, in your opinion?

Depends on the type of slavery you're talking about.

I have a question for you: Did you read anything about how Islamic slavery works according to the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah? Did you use any of the links I've posted that explain it?
Last edited by El-Amin Caliphate on Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kubumba Tribe's sister nation. NOT A PUPPET! >w< In fact, this one came 1st.
Proud Full Member of the Council of Islamic Cooperation!^u^
I'm a (Pan) Islamist ;)
CLICK THIS
https://americanvision.org/948/theonomy-vs-theocracy/ wrote:God’s law cannot govern a nation where God’s law does not rule in the hearts of the people

Democracy and Freedom Index
Plaetopia wrote:Partly Free / Hybrid regime (score 4-6) El-Amin Caliphate (5.33)

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