Islamic Discussion Thread ٥: Free Tajweed, Absolutely Halaal

[El-Amin Caliphate]

True but educating your slave and treating them like humans doesn't negate slavery. Also I thought that slaves marrying other slaves doesn't make them free.

On what basis? I support freeing slaves as much as the next guy, don't get me wrong there. However I don't see how treating slaves fee sabeelillah negates slavery.

Then, I fail to see what other point there is in keeping slavery, Amin akh. The Shariah is meant to be applicable to all societies regardless of their circumstances which includes whether or not they have slavery. Let's say Shariah was established in the West today. There'd be no point in establishing slavery because there wasn't any slavery to begin with. However, if Islamic slavery were applied to a country that has slavery, then yes, Islamic slavery should be implanted to ensure the eventual freedom of the eubayd.

Well in Al-Islam, only POWs can be enslaved, so if there's no war for Shari'ah, there's no slavery.

You're right. Just because someone marries a slave, doesn't mean they're free. I'm sure there is other circumstances involved that may delay their freedom. Nonetheless, given, we follow the Sunnah of Rasulallah, he freed female slaves by marrying them, thus freeing all their family. If this isn't a process to abolish slavery, then idk what else to say?

Nah, you and Zizou are right in that there are loads of stuff in Al-Islam that shows that freeing slaves is better than keeping them. I agree that Muslims who would have/have slaves should be encouraged to free them. I'm just saying that just because it's near mandatory to free slaves doesn't make it Haraam to own one.

Also, considering the times we live in, even if a POW is enslaved (a big "if", because POWs are supposed to be treated with dignity, and even though Al-Islam does treat slaves with dignity, I'd say it'd be better to keep them free than to enslave them), they can ask for a mukaatabah, which iirc if that is asked it must be upheld.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Then, I fail to see what other point there is in keeping slavery, Amin akh. The Shariah is meant to be applicable to all societies regardless of their circumstances which includes whether or not they have slavery. Let's say Shariah was established in the West today. There'd be no point in establishing slavery because there wasn't any slavery to begin with. However, if Islamic slavery were applied to a country that has slavery, then yes, Islamic slavery should be implanted to ensure the eventual freedom of the eubayd.

Well in Al-Islam, only POWs can be enslaved, so if there's no war for Shari'ah, there's no slavery.

You're right. Just because someone marries a slave, doesn't mean they're free. I'm sure there is other circumstances involved that may delay their freedom. Nonetheless, given, we follow the Sunnah of Rasulallah, he freed female slaves by marrying them, thus freeing all their family. If this isn't a process to abolish slavery, then idk what else to say?

Nah, you and Zizou are right in that there are loads of stuff in Al-Islam that shows that freeing slaves is better than keeping them. I agree that Muslims who would have/have slaves should be encouraged to free them. I'm just saying that just because it's near mandatory to free slaves doesn't make it Haraam to own one.

Also, considering the times we live in, even if a POW is enslaved (a big "if", because POWs are supposed to be treated with dignity, and even though Al-Islam does treat slaves with dignity, I'd say it'd be better to keep them free than to enslave them), they can ask for a mukaatabah, which iirc if that is asked it must be upheld.

(a big "if", because POWs are supposed to be treated with dignity, and even though Al-Islam does treat slaves with dignity, I'd say it'd be better to keep them free than to enslave them)

I say this, tho at the same time I wouldn't necessarily be against enslaving POWs to the Islamic nation. "They could be free and work for pay" some might say, but I ask: why would an enemy soldier willingly work for an enemy nation? Also idk what a POW's gonna do with his/her time when they aren't in jail or being interrogated.

[Jolthig]

Then, I fail to see what other point there is in keeping slavery, Amin akh. The Shariah is meant to be applicable to all societies regardless of their circumstances which includes whether or not they have slavery. Let's say Shariah was established in the West today. There'd be no point in establishing slavery because there wasn't any slavery to begin with. However, if Islamic slavery were applied to a country that has slavery, then yes, Islamic slavery should be implanted to ensure the eventual freedom of the eubayd.

Well in Al-Islam, only POWs can be enslaved, so if there's no war for Shari'ah, there's no slavery.

Right, but in the long run, the Quran intends to completely abolish slavery because Surah Muhammad 5 (if I'm correct which regards capturing POWs), seems clear that it strikes at the heart of slavery that no human can subdue another in the name of slavery for their own selfish benefit, but that, it's regarding in war that the enemy is punished, but still to be treated well, and eventually should be free by the time the war is over through the methods prescribed by the verse.

You're right. Just because someone marries a slave, doesn't mean they're free. I'm sure there is other circumstances involved that may delay their freedom. Nonetheless, given, we follow the Sunnah of Rasulallah, he freed female slaves by marrying them, thus freeing all their family. If this isn't a process to abolish slavery, then idk what else to say?

Nah, you and Zizou are right in that there are loads of stuff in Al-Islam that shows that freeing slaves is better than keeping them. I agree that Muslims who would have/have slaves should be encouraged to free them. I'm just saying that just because it's near mandatory to free slaves doesn't make it Haraam to own one.

True, but it should only be temporary because in the end, we are all brothers and sisters in faith, and everyone are eubayd to Allah, and not to mere human beings. That's why no one is allowed to call any slave their slave or servant, but their brother or sister in faith.

Also, considering the times we live in, even if a POW is enslaved (a big "if", because POWs are supposed to be treated with dignity, and even though Al-Islam does treat slaves with dignity, I'd say it'd be better to keep them free than to enslave them), they can ask for a mukaatabah, which iirc if that is asked it must be upheld.

Right, and also on top of that, nobody else is owning slaves and enslaves people in other nations so we shouldn't either in this era. Allah knows best.

[Jolthig]

Well in Al-Islam, only POWs can be enslaved, so if there's no war for Shari'ah, there's no slavery.

Nah, you and Zizou are right in that there are loads of stuff in Al-Islam that shows that freeing slaves is better than keeping them. I agree that Muslims who would have/have slaves should be encouraged to free them. I'm just saying that just because it's near mandatory to free slaves doesn't make it Haraam to own one.

Also, considering the times we live in, even if a POW is enslaved (a big "if", because POWs are supposed to be treated with dignity, and even though Al-Islam does treat slaves with dignity, I'd say it'd be better to keep them free than to enslave them), they can ask for a mukaatabah, which iirc if that is asked it must be upheld.

(a big "if", because POWs are supposed to be treated with dignity, and even though Al-Islam does treat slaves with dignity, I'd say it'd be better to keep them free than to enslave them)

I say this, tho at the same time I wouldn't necessarily be against enslaving POWs to the Islamic nation. "They could be free and work for pay" some might say, but I ask: why would an enemy soldier willingly work for an enemy nation? Also idk what a POW's gonna do with his/her time when they aren't in jail or being interrogated.

They can either go back to their own country or tribe, or convert to Islam. Like I said, any of the methods prescribed by Surah 47 and 8.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Well in Al-Islam, only POWs can be enslaved, so if there's no war for Shari'ah, there's no slavery.

Right, but in the long run, the Quran intends to completely abolish slavery because Surah Muhammad 5 (if I'm correct which regards capturing POWs), seems clear that it strikes at the heart of slavery that no human can subdue another in the name of slavery for their own selfish benefit, but that, it's regarding in war that the enemy is punished, but still to be treated well, and eventually should be free by the time the war is over through the methods prescribed by the verse.

You mean this ayah? Here's more context. It's referring to shuhadaa who were martyred, not freeing slaves.

True, but it should only be temporary because in the end, we are all brothers and sisters in faith, and everyone are eubayd to Allah, and not to mere human beings. That's why no one is allowed to call any slave their slave or servant, but their brother or sister in faith.

1: "Brothers and sisters in faith" only refers to Muslims, not those outside of Al-Islam. Because iirc Muslims can't enslave other Muslims (idk if this is true or not make that with a grain of salt).
2: *It's actually "my brother/sister who Allah SWT has entrusted upon me".

Right, and also on top of that, nobody else is owning slaves and enslaves people in other nations so we shouldn't either in this era. Allah knows best.

Why should we follow what they do tho? Just because nobody else is doing it doesn't mean we shouldn't (I'm not saying we should, just putting it out there).

[Negarakita]

Eid mubarak everyone! (We got it a day later in NZ)

[Chularatchamontri]

Slavery is definitely inacceptable because Islam is supposed to be balanced and away from extremism.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Slavery is definitely inacceptable because Islam is supposed to be balanced and away from extremism.

There's nothing in the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah that I know that says such.

[Diarcesia]

Slavery is definitely inacceptable because Islam is supposed to be balanced and away from extremism.

There's nothing in the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah that I know that says such.

Then is it up for Muslims whether or not they keep slaves?

[Chularatchamontri]

Slavery is definitely inacceptable because Islam is supposed to be balanced and away from extremism.

There's nothing in the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah that I know that says such.

And thus we have made you a wasat (moderate) community that you will be witnesses over the people and the Messenger will be a witness over you. And We did not make the qiblah which you used to face except that We might make evident who would follow the Messenger from who would turn back on his heels. And indeed, it is difficult except for those whom Allah has guided. And never would Allah have caused you to lose your faith. Indeed Allah is, to the people, Kind and Merciful.

— Al-Baqara, 2: 143

Narrated `Aisha: Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "Do good deeds properly, sincerely and moderately and know that your deeds will not make you enter Paradise, and that the most beloved deed to Allah is the most regular and constant even if it were little."

— Sahih Bukhari, chapter: 68, Hadith no: 6020

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Do good deeds properly, sincerely and moderately. . .Always adopt a middle, moderate, regular course, whereby you will reach your target (of paradise)."

— Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Hadith 470

Hakam bin Hazan Qulafi narrated that the Messenger of Allah said, O mankind! You will not be able to do all that you are ordered to do. But follow moderate means and give good news.

— Ahmad 17856, Abu Dawood 1098, Sahihul Jami '7871

[El-Amin Caliphate]

There's nothing in the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah that I know that says such.

Then is it up for Muslims whether or not they keep slaves?

Yes, but it's highly recommended that they free them. Also, if the slave wants freedom, their request must be upheld iirc. Either they must be upheld no matter what or they must be freed if they are upstanding people. Now that I think about it, that latter kinda makes since because only POWs can be enslaved, and prisoners usually get lighter sentences if they behave well.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

There's nothing in the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah that I know that says such.

And thus we have made you a wasat (moderate) community that you will be witnesses over the people and the Messenger will be a witness over you. And We did not make the qiblah which you used to face except that We might make evident who would follow the Messenger from who would turn back on his heels. And indeed, it is difficult except for those whom Allah has guided. And never would Allah have caused you to lose your faith. Indeed Allah is, to the people, Kind and Merciful.

— Al-Baqara, 2: 143

Narrated `Aisha: Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "Do good deeds properly, sincerely and moderately and know that your deeds will not make you enter Paradise, and that the most beloved deed to Allah is the most regular and constant even if it were little."

— Sahih Bukhari, chapter: 68, Hadith no: 6020

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Do good deeds properly, sincerely and moderately. . .Always adopt a middle, moderate, regular course, whereby you will reach your target (of paradise)."

— Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Hadith 470

Hakam bin Hazan Qulafi narrated that the Messenger of Allah said, O mankind! You will not be able to do all that you are ordered to do. But follow moderate means and give good news.

— Ahmad 17856, Abu Dawood 1098, Sahihul Jami '7871

None of these are about whether Islamic slavery can still be practiced.

[Chularatchamontri]

And thus we have made you a wasat (moderate) community that you will be witnesses over the people and the Messenger will be a witness over you. And We did not make the qiblah which you used to face except that We might make evident who would follow the Messenger from who would turn back on his heels. And indeed, it is difficult except for those whom Allah has guided. And never would Allah have caused you to lose your faith. Indeed Allah is, to the people, Kind and Merciful.

— Al-Baqara, 2: 143

Narrated `Aisha: Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "Do good deeds properly, sincerely and moderately and know that your deeds will not make you enter Paradise, and that the most beloved deed to Allah is the most regular and constant even if it were little."

— Sahih Bukhari, chapter: 68, Hadith no: 6020

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Do good deeds properly, sincerely and moderately. . .Always adopt a middle, moderate, regular course, whereby you will reach your target (of paradise)."

— Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Hadith 470

Hakam bin Hazan Qulafi narrated that the Messenger of Allah said, O mankind! You will not be able to do all that you are ordered to do. But follow moderate means and give good news.

— Ahmad 17856, Abu Dawood 1098, Sahihul Jami '7871

None of these are about whether Islamic slavery can still be practiced.

They talk about how we should ask justly and not do extreme things like slavery.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

None of these are about whether Islamic slavery can still be practiced.

They talk about how we should ask justly and not do extreme things like slavery.

Again, none of those talk about Islamic slavery.

[Kowani]

Are we doing this again?

[Chularatchamontri]

They talk about how we should ask justly and not do extreme things like slavery.

Again, none of those talk about Islamic slavery.

They talk about not doing extreme and unjust actions, which slavery is. This bit: "Always adopt a middle, moderate, regular course, whereby you will reach your target (of paradise)" implies that we should always seek middle ground and adapt with times to be moderate. Slavery is no longer practical, economically viable, let alone morally acceptable and so we should not practice it or we are being extremists.

[Diarcesia]

Again, none of those talk about Islamic slavery.

They talk about not doing extreme and unjust actions, which slavery is. This bit: "Always adopt a middle, moderate, regular course, whereby you will reach your target (of paradise)" implies that we should always seek middle ground and adapt with times to be moderate. Slavery is no longer practical, economically viable, let alone morally acceptable and so we should not practice it or we are being extremists.

It does talk something that I don't see many people pay attention to.

[Chularatchamontri]

They talk about not doing extreme and unjust actions, which slavery is. This bit: "Always adopt a middle, moderate, regular course, whereby you will reach your target (of paradise)" implies that we should always seek middle ground and adapt with times to be moderate. Slavery is no longer practical, economically viable, let alone morally acceptable and so we should not practice it or we are being extremists.

It does talk something that I don't see many people pay attention to.

Wasatiyyah is the true islam and it is growing, subhanullah

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Again, none of those talk about Islamic slavery.

They talk about not doing extreme and unjust actions, which slavery is.

Prove it.

This bit: "Always adopt a middle, moderate, regular course, whereby you will reach your target (of paradise)" implies that we should always seek middle ground and adapt with times to be moderate.

Agreed. Except the "with times" part. Idc about the times, I care about the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah.

Slavery is no longer practical, economically viable, let alone morally acceptable

Says who?

and so we should not practice it or we are being extremists.

Again, says who?

Also, considering that some of the SaHaaba owned slaves, it'd be better for you not to call them extremists.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

God's SWT wrath and mercy. Boom, there we go.

Gods wrath is the Islamic version of the devil? Makes a lot of sense if you think about it.

Never said that, and no. ShayTaan is a whole different entity.

[Chularatchamontri]

They talk about not doing extreme and unjust actions, which slavery is.

Prove it.

This bit: "Always adopt a middle, moderate, regular course, whereby you will reach your target (of paradise)" implies that we should always seek middle ground and adapt with times to be moderate.

Agreed. Except the "with times" part. Idc about the times, I care about the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah.

Slavery is no longer practical, economically viable, let alone morally acceptable

Says who?

and so we should not practice it or we are being extremists.

Again, says who?

Also, considering that some of the SaHaaba owned slaves, it'd be better for you not to call them extremists.

The actions of the Sahaba were justified in their time, but the material conditions are different. Islam no longer needs slaves or any of that. How is slavery fair and not extreme? It is far from acceptable, which makes it extreme.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Prove it.

Agreed. Except the "with times" part. Idc about the times, I care about the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah.

Says who?

Again, says who?

Also, considering that some of the SaHaaba owned slaves, it'd be better for you not to call them extremists.

The actions of the Sahaba were justified in their time, but the material conditions are different. Islam no longer needs slaves or any of that.

I never anything about what Al-Islam needs.

How is slavery fair and not extreme?

This is how:

Slavery in Al-Islam:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wic1CdJKufY
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4sVo_-j2THE
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pn1ubtoL95c
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h9d6sZJRNYQ
https://islamqa.info/en/94840
http://islam-wa-sunnah.com/fatwa/index. ... definition
https://www.al-islam.org/slavery-from-i ... ks-slavery
http://www.islamweb.net/en/article/1174 ... of-slavery
http://islam-wa-sunnah.com/fatwa/index. ... definition
https://abuaminaelias.com/sexual-consen ... -in-islam/

It is far from acceptable, which makes it extreme.

Says who? Where in the Holy Qur'an and/or Sunnah is Islamic slavery (because this is the type of slavery I'm talking about, not slavery in general) deemed extreme?

[North German Realm]

Are we doing this again?

Are you genuinely surprised? We go over other similarly confoundingly obvious shit only Amin has a different opinion on time and time again.

[Cappuccina]

I'd say as slavery isn't a fundamental aspect of Islam, we are free to make a moral choice on whether it is acceptable in modern society. In the spirit of the Quran, I don't see a way to justify its practice.

"Serve Allah(swt) . . . and do good - to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbors who are near, neighbors who are strangers, the Companion by your side, the way-farer, and what your right hands possess (4:36)"

[El-Amin Caliphate]

I'd say as slavery isn't a fundamental aspect of Islam, we are free to make a moral choice on whether it is acceptable in modern society. In the spirit of the Quran, I don't see a way to justify its practice.

"Serve Allah(swt) . . . and do good - to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbors who are near, neighbors who are strangers, the Companion by your side, the way-farer, and what your right hands possess (4:36)"

Oh yeah, you're Muslim too For some reason I keep on forgetting that lol. Assalaamu Alaikum wa RaHmatullahi wa Barakatuhu wa Eid Mubaarak.

Like I said to Chularatchamontri, idc about modern soceity, I care about the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah. And I have not found anywhere in the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah where Islamic slavery is explicitly nor implicitly outlawed.

Also that ayah literally says "...do good - to...what your right hands possess". "What your right hands possess" was referring to slaves.