Is Fascism Inevitable in the Future of the West?

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

What if you weren't standing side by side with them?

... You do realize visual indicators, like patches or flags or shit, exist, right?

Like, Xeno, I know you're smarter than this.

Yes, but what if you weren't wearing patches or flags. But you did say you would like antifa to cut down on the amount of collateral damage and innocents being attacked, so that's fair I guess.

[Torrocca]

"Conspiracy to commit murder" is a crime I don't often see people having a problem with.

Yet somehow, when it comes to talking about "conspiracy to replace the government with an institution that will actively carry out racial genocide against potentially millions of people" people seem to think it becomes a matter of free speech and freedom of association.

I'm still having trouble processing that.

Genocide is okay, but punching a guy calling for genocide is suddenly as bad as genocide itself (which is okay).

Y'see, we're too smooth-brained and stupid to do something as simple as intel-gathering operations. Not a single anti-Fascist in the history of ever has had access to the Internet or heard stories about espionage and infiltration strategies. Hell, not even the people who actually fought Fascist in a World War knew how to use espionage. Fuckin' Fascists got some kinda mind ray or some shit that turns their enemies stupid.

A kid in a hoodie picks a fight somewhere in America: "AnTiFa attacks at random! You could be next!"
Anti-fascists infiltrate fascist groups, watch who's talking to who, learn the language, lurk fascist forums and discord servers, probably keep better tabs on fascists than the fucking police do: *crickets*

I wonder if I could make national headlines by punching myself in the face while wearing a black hoodie?

[Purgatio]

Y'see, we're too smooth-brained and stupid to do something as simple as intel-gathering operations. Not a single anti-Fascist in the history of ever has had access to the Internet or heard stories about espionage and infiltration strategies. Hell, not even the people who actually fought Fascist in a World War knew how to use espionage. Fuckin' Fascists got some kinda mind ray or some shit that turns their enemies stupid.

A kid in a hoodie picks a fight somewhere in America: "AnTiFa attacks at random! You could be next!"
Anti-fascists infiltrate fascist groups, watch who's talking to who, learn the language, lurk fascist forums and discord servers, probably keep better tabs on fascists than the fucking police do: *crickets*

That's funny, fascists and neo-Nazis use the same excuse when one of their own commits violence. Forgive me if I'm sceptical of how convenient this 'explanation' is. It barely qualifies as a defence.

[Torrocca]

Are you just gonna ignore the earlier parts of conversation we had where I said I'd like AntiFa to do better to reduce or completely nullify incidents of innocents getting attacked?

Because its useless to say "I wish you'd not hurt innocent people" if you also morally endorse a group attacking people they individual deem, at their sole and unrestrained discretion, a fascist worthy of being punched in the face like a vigilante goon squad above the law. Once you support such a system, it works on autopilot and said goon squad will start attacking people at their individual determination, a process over which you have no control. So telling us "I don't support violence against non-fascists" is useless as long as you keep supporting ANTIFA as a movement and the employment of extra-legal violence on non-violent individuals.

Okay, yeah, because I totally just endorse having a group that randomly does violence and not a group that gives itself standards to uphold. Right.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

I'd say to prove it.

Try asking a masked antifa thug to prove it while they're beating you up.

This ^^

[Ifreann]

Y'see, we're too smooth-brained and stupid to do something as simple as intel-gathering operations. Not a single anti-Fascist in the history of ever has had access to the Internet or heard stories about espionage and infiltration strategies. Hell, not even the people who actually fought Fascist in a World War knew how to use espionage. Fuckin' Fascists got some kinda mind ray or some shit that turns their enemies stupid.



... I'm pretty sure they'd see I'm not a Fascist when I'd be standing side-by-side with them at a counterprotest.

I've given example after example of ANTIFA attacking perfectly innocent people - journalists covering events, US Marines who were just walking by, literally senior citizens driving in cars. These animals and savages are just bloodthirsty and violent people who attack anyone in the nearby vicinity on the thinly-veiled pretext of 'I thought he was a fascist', you are naive if you think you or anyone else is 100% safe.

Yes, when you go out in public there is a chance that someone will kick you in the shins for reasons you never learn because they fled into the night.

[Purgatio]

"Conspiracy to commit murder" is a crime I don't often see people having a problem with.

Yet somehow, when it comes to talking about "conspiracy to replace the government with an institution that will actively carry out racial genocide against potentially millions of people" people seem to think it becomes a matter of free speech and freedom of association.

I'm still having trouble processing that.

Maybe because there's a difference between plotting to kill specific individuals on your own accord and plotting to effect change peacefully through the legal system, with violent consequences.

If I plot with my friend to kill our neighbour, that's conspiracy to commit murder. If my friend and I campaign for the death penalty, that's not conspiracy to commit murder. See the difference?

[Duhon]

The day that there are no more political divides and extremes is the day that fascism wins. The west is the freeiest, most tolerant, accepting and mindful of human rights today compared to the previous centuries combined. The west is so non-fascist it has begun to entertain micro-political ideas in unprecedented levels to the point that it yielded a HUGE spectrum of branching political and social perspectives and opinion from the traditional ideologies to the most wackiest and craziest extreme.

Is it safe? Not really, for such a wide range of freedom will always carry the risk of two extremes clashing.

Is it Fascism? No. It's the opposite, because Fascism offers security, safety, comfort, quiet, automation, stability, order, convenience and many more that OP wishes to have in society today. Though I cannot fault OP for wanting those.

Fascism offers many things, but the one thing it will not offer is freedom.

"Fascism" and "security, safety, comfort, quiet, automation, stability, order, convenience, et cetera" do not mix together.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

Again, "Seize the Means of Production!" doesn't fucking mean seizing personal assets. At the absolute worse, those things would end up becoming meaningless. At best, literally nothing would happen except they'd probably have their shares, stocks, bonds and shit in democratic businesses (and that'd probably end up getting worked out with them getting monetary compensation or some shit, since that probably would no longer be legal depending on the form of Socialism being practiced).

Hands off my toothbrush, commie.

---

Try asking a masked antifa thug to prove it while they're beating you up.

Patrick Hermansson spent a year undercover in the alt-right for Hope Not Hate. But sure, they just go around beating up any rando who looks at them wrong. Gathering intelligence? Nah, course not.

Despite such intelligence gathering, there are some cases where Antifa gets it wrong. Stop pretending that that never happens.

[Purgatio]

Because its useless to say "I wish you'd not hurt innocent people" if you also morally endorse a group attacking people they individual deem, at their sole and unrestrained discretion, a fascist worthy of being punched in the face like a vigilante goon squad above the law. Once you support such a system, it works on autopilot and said goon squad will start attacking people at their individual determination, a process over which you have no control. So telling us "I don't support violence against non-fascists" is useless as long as you keep supporting ANTIFA as a movement and the employment of extra-legal violence on non-violent individuals.

Okay, yeah, because I totally just endorse having a group that randomly does violence and not a group that gives itself standards to uphold. Right.

You support ANTIFA. ANTIFA is a group that "randomly does violence and not a group that gives itself standards to uphold", as all the mountains of evidence I've given has more than proven by now.

[Washington Resistance Army]

... You do realize I've already argued against them attacking non-Fascists in this very thread, correct?

See that's the thing, you actually believe that violence is just a door you can open for a small amount, just a small peek, and let in a specific type of particle to come in and exclude the rest. No, that's not how it works with humanity and history. You justified punching Nazis, what's stopping them from justifying hitting you back AND more.

You're expecting a large group of people to have the same, uniform, filtered idea of what a Nazi is and at the same time underestimating what Nazis have done and can do.

If you truly believe they're evil, unreasonable people, you know that assaulting them will further give them excuse to "avenge" themselves and attack not only "anti-fascists", but everyone they deem a threat...and even those who are not a threat but don't meet their standards of what a human should be.

If you truly believe they're manipulative and divisive, you'll know that they keep videos and reports of "anti-fascist assaulting "innocent" speaker/protester" as propaganda to rile up their fellow Nazis and make them more active.

You assaulting them gives them the victim narrative and makes like-minded AND non-like minded BUT sympathetic people open to listening and entertaining their concepts.

Actual white supremacists and Nazis are using the current climate of intolerance and violence by using the "We were just minding our business and saying our *cough*bigoted*cough* opinions when these anti-fascists punched us!"

You're not dampening the flame, you're fueling it.

This guy gets it^

[Torrocca]

... You do realize visual indicators, like patches or flags or shit, exist, right?

Like, Xeno, I know you're smarter than this.

Yes, but what if you weren't wearing patches or flags.

I'd do... something else to make it completely obvious I'm not a Fascist? Like, not endorse genocide or something? I dunno, but at that point I'd be fucking stupid to not have a visual indicator for my allies.

But you did say you would like antifa to cut down on the amount of collateral damage and innocents being attacked, so that's fair I guess.

Ye.

[Purgatio]

I've given example after example of ANTIFA attacking perfectly innocent people - journalists covering events, US Marines who were just walking by, literally senior citizens driving in cars. These animals and savages are just bloodthirsty and violent people who attack anyone in the nearby vicinity on the thinly-veiled pretext of 'I thought he was a fascist', you are naive if you think you or anyone else is 100% safe.

Yes, when you go out in public there is a chance that someone will kick you in the shins for reasons you never learn because they fled into the night.

Random guy kicks me in the shins =/= ANTIFA rally turns violent and attacks innocent people

[Torrocca]

Okay, yeah, because I totally just endorse having a group that randomly does violence and not a group that gives itself standards to uphold. Right.

You support ANTIFA. ANTIFA is a group that "randomly does violence and not a group that gives itself standards to uphold", as all the mountains of evidence I've given has more than proven by now.

And I also support fixing the inherent problems in AntiFa. Y'see, you can support things and try to fix them too. That's called nuance.

[Holy Tedalonia]

Yes, but what if you weren't wearing patches or flags.

I'd do... something else to make it completely obvious I'm not a Fascist? Like, not endorse genocide or something? I dunno, but at that point I'd be fucking stupid to not have a visual indicator for my allies.

But you did say you would like antifa to cut down on the amount of collateral damage and innocents being attacked, so that's fair I guess.

Ye.

Tbf, Fascism =/= genocide.

Benito Mussolini was a fascist who while was derogatory to jewish people (for favor of his supporters), found outright genocide rediculous. Even mocking Hitler, over his anti-semitic beliefs.

[Purgatio]

You support ANTIFA. ANTIFA is a group that "randomly does violence and not a group that gives itself standards to uphold", as all the mountains of evidence I've given has more than proven by now.

And I also support fixing the inherent problems in AntiFa. Y'see, you can support things and try to fix them too. That's called nuance.

Not when the violence inflicted by ANTIFA is so rampant and so indiscriminate that this is not a problem that can be fixed unless you condemn ANTIFA itself and support the efforts of the rest of society to suppress this dangerous and cancerous gang masquerading as a social movement

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

I'd do... something else to make it completely obvious I'm not a Fascist? Like, not endorse genocide or something? I dunno, but at that point I'd be fucking stupid to not have a visual indicator for my allies.

Few people do endorse genocide, yet antifa attacks many.

[Torrocca]

I'd do... something else to make it completely obvious I'm not a Fascist? Like, not endorse genocide or something? I dunno, but at that point I'd be fucking stupid to not have a visual indicator for my allies.



Ye.

Tbf, Fascism =/= genocide.

Benito Mussolini was a fascist who while was derogatory to jewish people (for favor of his supporters), found outright genocide rediculous. Even mocking Hitler, over his anti-semitic beliefs.

I mean, you say that, but then he went ahead and ethnically cleansed Slovenes in northern Italy.

[Elletolis]

"Conspiracy to commit murder" is a crime I don't often see people having a problem with.

Yet somehow, when it comes to talking about "conspiracy to replace the government with an institution that will actively carry out racial genocide against potentially millions of people" people seem to think it becomes a matter of free speech and freedom of association.

I'm still having trouble processing that.

Maybe because there's a difference between plotting to kill specific individuals on your own accord and plotting to effect change peacefully through the legal system, with violent consequences.

If I plot with my friend to kill our neighbour, that's conspiracy to commit murder. If my friend and I campaign for the death penalty, that's not conspiracy to commit murder. See the difference?

The case for the death penalty isn't founded on arbitrary and irrational hatred, racism is. I'd argue that's false equivocation.

Beyond that, fascist have shown that they don't opt for legal change because they genuinely believe in its merits, but because its the best way to consolidate power till they can force non legal change (Night of the Long Knives).

Beyond even that, I don't give a shit about the legal system if its actively allowing situations that violate my most basic and fundamental morals.

[Torrocca]

And I also support fixing the inherent problems in AntiFa. Y'see, you can support things and try to fix them too. That's called nuance.

Not when the violence inflicted by ANTIFA is so rampant and so indiscriminate that this is not a problem that can be fixed unless you condemn ANTIFA itself and support the efforts of the rest of society to suppress this dangerous and cancerous gang masquerading as a social movement

Even extreme problems can be fixed.

I'd do... something else to make it completely obvious I'm not a Fascist? Like, not endorse genocide or something? I dunno, but at that point I'd be fucking stupid to not have a visual indicator for my allies.

Few people do endorse genocide, yet antifa attacks many.

While Fascism itself doesn't necessarily endorse genocide, Fascism's still fucked up and an otherwise fine target.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

I'd do... something else to make it completely obvious I'm not a Fascist? Like, not endorse genocide or something? I dunno, but at that point I'd be fucking stupid to not have a visual indicator for my allies.



Ye.

Tbf, Fascism =/= genocide.

Benito Mussolini was a fascist who while was derogatory to jewish people (for favor of his supporters), found outright genocide rediculous. Even mocking Hitler, over his anti-semitic beliefs.

Too bad he didn't stick to those "morals" and ended up committing a genocide anyway. He was an irredeemable man.

[Purgatio]

Maybe because there's a difference between plotting to kill specific individuals on your own accord and plotting to effect change peacefully through the legal system, with violent consequences.

If I plot with my friend to kill our neighbour, that's conspiracy to commit murder. If my friend and I campaign for the death penalty, that's not conspiracy to commit murder. See the difference?

The case for the death penalty isn't founded on arbitrary and irrational hatred, racism is. I'd argue that's false equivocation.

Beyond that, fascist have shown that they don't opt for legal change because they genuinely believe in its merits, but because its the best way to consolidate power till they can force non legal change (Night of the Long Knives).

Beyond even that, I don't give a shit about the legal system if its actively allowing situations that violate my most basic and fundamental morals.

You asked what the positive legal distinction was, and I'm explaining what the difference is. In the same way as a Marxist campaigning for property confiscation is not "conspiracy to commit theft", Nazis campaigning for ethnic cleansing is not "conspiracy to commit murder". That's not how the law works.

[Ulrich Schmid]

Can we not go straight to violence maybe?

If in self-defence or to fight oppression, fair enough. Most fascists are impotent in that regard though.

[Purgatio]

Not when the violence inflicted by ANTIFA is so rampant and so indiscriminate that this is not a problem that can be fixed unless you condemn ANTIFA itself and support the efforts of the rest of society to suppress this dangerous and cancerous gang masquerading as a social movement

Even extreme problems can be fixed.

Few people do endorse genocide, yet antifa attacks many.

While Fascism itself doesn't necessarily endorse genocide, Fascism's still fucked up and an otherwise fine target.

"Fucked up" is an entirely subjective opinion. I find lots of political opinions "fucked up" - libertarianism, social conservatism, religious fundamentalism, Marxist-Leninism, communism, socialism, but I'd never think of attacking any of them for disagreeing with them unless they inflicted violence first. That's what it means to live in a civilised society.

[Ifreann]

What if you weren't standing side by side with them?

... You do realize visual indicators, like patches or flags or shit, exist, right?

Like, Xeno, I know you're smarter than this.

But what if you were protesting with fascists, wearing a swastika, shouting "Gas the Kikes, race war now!", and someone thought you were a fascist!

---

A kid in a hoodie picks a fight somewhere in America: "AnTiFa attacks at random! You could be next!"
Anti-fascists infiltrate fascist groups, watch who's talking to who, learn the language, lurk fascist forums and discord servers, probably keep better tabs on fascists than the fucking police do: *crickets*

That's funny, fascists and neo-Nazis use the same excuse when one of their own commits violence. Forgive me if I'm sceptical of how convenient this 'explanation' is. It barely qualifies as a defence.

Yes, fascists often infiltrate the Judeo-Bolsheviks who run the banking system. They have learned all the secrets of the International Jew.

---

Hands off my toothbrush, commie.

---

Despite such intelligence gathering, there are some cases where Antifa gets it wrong. Stop pretending that that never happens.

I'm not. I'm disputing this persistent belief that anti-fascists go around beating up random people for the lolz.

---

Yes, when you go out in public there is a chance that someone will kick you in the shins for reasons you never learn because they fled into the night.

Random guy kicks me in the shins =/= ANTIFA rally turns violent and attacks innocent people

You think there are people who commit random acts of violence. Yeah, there are, that's how the world works. Maybe they'll be doing it because they think you're a fascist. Maybe they'll be doing it because they think Momo told them to.