Is Fascism Inevitable in the Future of the West?

[Washington Resistance Army]

Deriving pleasure from dehumanization and violence against those you dehumanize isn't a common trait among the groups we're discussing?

Who said there's pleasure derived from violence or dehumanization involved here, or even dehumanization? I'd rather not do violence against anyone

Idk man, with how often you go on about Einsatzgruppening the fash it really seems like this isn't the case.

[Torrocca]

Who said there's pleasure derived from violence or dehumanization involved here, or even dehumanization? I'd rather not do violence against anyone, but Nazism and Fascism are existential threats to me so, yeah, I think it's morally fine to punch people who subscribe to either ideology.



Shockingly, you actually can distinguish Fascists from non-Fascists.

Glad to hear it, how?

It can be as stupidly simple as a visual cue (see here) or a decent audio or written cue, like Richard Spencer's good old "Peaceful Ethnic Cleansing" bullshit.

Who said there's pleasure derived from violence or dehumanization involved here, or even dehumanization? I'd rather not do violence against anyone

Idk man, with how often you go on about Einsatzgruppening the fash it really seems like this isn't the case.

Misgendering aside, I'm totally arguing for fucking death squads to roam around Eastern Europe to help perpetuate a genocide by killing 1,500,000 people - just, y'know, this time against Fascists. Riiight.

Jesus, this hot take is getting worse.

No, for fuck's sake, "Seize the Means of Production!" doesn't Goddamn mean Communists are going to steal your home and all the toothbrushes inside of it.

That's literally what happened during agricultural collectivisation in the Soviet Union. The seizure of farm animals, property and land and transfer to collectives and kolhozy communes.

It's like you're just very deliberately ignoring the part where I said I'm talking about non-Marxist-Leninists.

[Purgatio]

Glad to hear it, how?

It can be as stupidly simple as a visual cue (see here) or a decent audio or written cue, like Richard Spencer's good old "Peaceful Ethnic Cleansing" bullshit.

Idk man, with how often you go on about Einsatzgruppening the fash it really seems like this isn't the case.

Oh, yeah, because I'm totally arguing for fucking death squads to roam around Eastern Europe to help perpetuate a genocide by killing 1,500,000 people - just, y'know, this time against Fascists. Riiight.

That's literally what happened during agricultural collectivisation in the Soviet Union. The seizure of farm animals, property and land and transfer to collectives and kolhozy communes.

It's like you're just very deliberately ignoring the part where I said I'm talking about non-Marxist-Leninists.

Fine, I'll bite - how, precisely, do you intend to non-violently expropriate my parents' shares, stocks, bonds, gilts, other equities, mutual funds and pensions rights? How do you intend to achieve that without force, violence or coercion of any kind?

[Ifreann]

I know. Mistakes happen, and obviously any group with a lick of sense will try to avoid that, even if only because anti-fascists beating up the wrong guy is a big PR win for fascists. But before you condemn anti-fascists for sometimes punching the wrong face, consider that the police and military far more regularly do far more violence to the wrong people, very often with zero repercussions. Are they, therefore, not a far greater threat than anti-fascists?

Their assessment of who is and isn't fascist is, no offence meant, probably better than yours.

Unlike ANTIFA, the police are actually needed. Yes, the police hurt and kill the wrong guy more than ANTIFA, I agree with you there, and I'm very much in favour of police reform to change that (like body cameras, independent DOJ prosecution etc) but I can't very well advocate abolishing the police in response because any civilised society with a legal system needs some body or institution to enforce those laws, so short of advocating for the abolition of law and government itself, unlike with ANTIFA I can't advocate for the police to just fuck off and go away, I can only advocate reforms to make them better.

As for ANTIFA's assessment of who is a fascist, I might not be a fascism-detection expert or anything, but at the very least I know that Mexican-American Marine reservists near a We the People rally (https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2019/01/30/third-man-charged-in-alleged-antifa-assault-of-two-marine-reservists-in-philadelphia/), a US Marine Corps office (https://www.theepochtimes.com/far-left-antifa-captured-on-video-smashing-windows-of-us-marine-corps-during-protest_2616164.html), the Hamilton Crowne Plaza Hotel (https://nypost.com/2017/01/20/anti-trump-protesters-smash-windows-throw-flares-in-dc/), the New York Republican headquarters (https://dailycaller.com/2018/10/12/nyc-gop-headquarters-vandalized/), random police officers and journalists (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2018/08/13/antifa-protesters-couldnt-find-any-fascists-at-unite-the-right-and-harassed-the-press-instead/) and a Bernie Sanders voter carrying an American flag (https://www.newsweek.com/antifa-violence-portland-bernie-sanders-video-1082072) are clearly, clearly not fascists.

Literally the only possible way for me to be worse at detecting fascists than ANTIFA is if I run out of the house right now, point at random bunnies and kittens, scream 'fascist!' and kick them in the face.

Yes, clearly anti-fascists all over the world carrying out anti-fascist actions all the time are all bad at recognising fascists because of a few news stories about a few things allegedly done by anti-fascists.

---

Yes, no, and maybe so. It all depends on the context and situations/values that any certain "Western nation" currently holds. I could never see, say, an Ireland, Norway, or Iceland descending into authoritarianism and fascism - but there are also Western Nations such as Hungary, Poland and the US that are either going through democratic backsliding or are having the framework for this backsliding being set into place.

Edit: I'm referring more to authoritarianism and not actual fascism. Apart from wannabe fascists like Bolsonaro or Salvini, I really don't see a large trend towards full fascist governance anywhere in the west in the near future.

Non-Hispanic whites will no longer be the majority of the US in 2045. Whites in the UK will be a minority in 2066. You can argue all you want that this doesn't matter and race is only skin-deep and we are all God's children and all the other typical platitudes, but it won't change the fact that human beings are inherently tribalistic, we form communal connections and forge a group identity based on visible, stark and obvious distinguishing features, and the biggest of this phenotypical physical appearance, in the form of race. When massive demographic changes are foisted on societies ill-suited to handle them, the result is lack of social cohesion and a massive social backlash from the racial group that feels threatened, alienated and displaced in their own country. As long as these demographic changes continue, white support for fascist movements in these countries will increase until fascism becomes inevitably popular.

---

I'd say to prove it.

Too bad people are bashing fash with no evidence that they are fascists (let alone proof), other than they disagree with the anti-fascists.

Patrick Hermansson spent a year undercover in the alt-right for Hope Not Hate. But sure, they just go around beating up any rando who looks at them wrong. Gathering intelligence? Nah, course not.

[Torrocca]

It can be as stupidly simple as a visual cue (see here) or a decent audio or written cue, like Richard Spencer's good old "Peaceful Ethnic Cleansing" bullshit.



Oh, yeah, because I'm totally arguing for fucking death squads to roam around Eastern Europe to help perpetuate a genocide by killing 1,500,000 people - just, y'know, this time against Fascists. Riiight.



It's like you're just very deliberately ignoring the part where I said I'm talking about non-Marxist-Leninists.

Fine, I'll bite - how, precisely, do you intend to non-violently expropriate my parents' shares, stocks, bonds, gilts, other equities, mutual funds and pensions rights? How do you intend to achieve that without force, violence or coercion of any kind?

Again, "Seize the Means of Production!" doesn't fucking mean seizing personal assets. At the absolute worse, those things would end up becoming meaningless. At best, literally nothing would happen except they'd probably have their shares, stocks, bonds and shit in democratic businesses (and that'd probably end up getting worked out with them getting monetary compensation or some shit, since that probably would no longer be legal depending on the form of Socialism being practiced).

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

What I'm saying is that if you grant government the power to go after Nazis, those granted powers will soon be used to go after Communists as well.

... Except I didn't say that.

Except I did.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Okay, so let's do a thought experiment.

I say you are a fascist and I have the right to assault you. Go ahead and convince me otherwise.

I'd say to prove it.

Try asking a masked antifa thug to prove it while they're beating you up.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Idk man, with how often you go on about Einsatzgruppening the fash it really seems like this isn't the case.

Misgendering aside, I'm totally arguing for fucking death squads to roam around Eastern Europe to help perpetuate a genocide by killing 1,500,000 people - just, y'know, this time against Fascists. Riiight.

Be honest, would you really care if your fellow lefties shot up an NSM rally and killed some Nazis? Because I feel like I've interacted with you enough to know that you'd be pretty gleeful about it.

[Ifreann]

Fine, I'll bite - how, precisely, do you intend to non-violently expropriate my parents' shares, stocks, bonds, gilts, other equities, mutual funds and pensions rights? How do you intend to achieve that without force, violence or coercion of any kind?

Again, "Seize the Means of Production!" doesn't fucking mean seizing personal assets. At the absolute worse, those things would end up becoming meaningless. At best, literally nothing would happen except they'd probably have their shares, stocks, bonds and shit in democratic businesses (and that'd probably end up getting worked out with them getting monetary compensation or some shit, since that probably would no longer be legal depending on the form of Socialism being practiced).

Hands off my toothbrush, commie.

---

I'd say to prove it.

Try asking a masked antifa thug to prove it while they're beating you up.

Patrick Hermansson spent a year undercover in the alt-right for Hope Not Hate. But sure, they just go around beating up any rando who looks at them wrong. Gathering intelligence? Nah, course not.

[The Galactic Liberal Democracy]

I'd say to prove it.

Try asking a masked antifa thug to prove it while they're beating you up.

Beat them up first and accuse them of being fascist. That’s how this stuff works.

[Torrocca]

Too bad people are bashing fash with no evidence that they are fascists (let alone proof), other than they disagree with the anti-fascists.

Patrick Hermansson spent a year undercover in the alt-right for Hope Not Hate. But sure, they just go around beating up any rando who looks at them wrong. Gathering intelligence? Nah, course not.

Y'see, we're too smooth-brained and stupid to do something as simple as intel-gathering operations. Not a single anti-Fascist in the history of ever has had access to the Internet or heard stories about espionage and infiltration strategies. Hell, not even the people who actually fought Fascist in a World War knew how to use espionage. Fuckin' Fascists got some kinda mind ray or some shit that turns their enemies stupid.

I'd say to prove it.

Try asking a masked antifa thug to prove it while they're beating you up.

... I'm pretty sure they'd see I'm not a Fascist when I'd be standing side-by-side with them at a counterprotest.

[Purgatio]

Unlike ANTIFA, the police are actually needed. Yes, the police hurt and kill the wrong guy more than ANTIFA, I agree with you there, and I'm very much in favour of police reform to change that (like body cameras, independent DOJ prosecution etc) but I can't very well advocate abolishing the police in response because any civilised society with a legal system needs some body or institution to enforce those laws, so short of advocating for the abolition of law and government itself, unlike with ANTIFA I can't advocate for the police to just fuck off and go away, I can only advocate reforms to make them better.

As for ANTIFA's assessment of who is a fascist, I might not be a fascism-detection expert or anything, but at the very least I know that Mexican-American Marine reservists near a We the People rally (https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2019/01/30/third-man-charged-in-alleged-antifa-assault-of-two-marine-reservists-in-philadelphia/), a US Marine Corps office (https://www.theepochtimes.com/far-left-antifa-captured-on-video-smashing-windows-of-us-marine-corps-during-protest_2616164.html), the Hamilton Crowne Plaza Hotel (https://nypost.com/2017/01/20/anti-trump-protesters-smash-windows-throw-flares-in-dc/), the New York Republican headquarters (https://dailycaller.com/2018/10/12/nyc-gop-headquarters-vandalized/), random police officers and journalists (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2018/08/13/antifa-protesters-couldnt-find-any-fascists-at-unite-the-right-and-harassed-the-press-instead/) and a Bernie Sanders voter carrying an American flag (https://www.newsweek.com/antifa-violence-portland-bernie-sanders-video-1082072) are clearly, clearly not fascists.

Literally the only possible way for me to be worse at detecting fascists than ANTIFA is if I run out of the house right now, point at random bunnies and kittens, scream 'fascist!' and kick them in the face.

Yes, clearly anti-fascists all over the world carrying out anti-fascist actions all the time are all bad at recognising fascists because of a few news stories about a few things allegedly done by anti-fascists.

---

Non-Hispanic whites will no longer be the majority of the US in 2045. Whites in the UK will be a minority in 2066. You can argue all you want that this doesn't matter and race is only skin-deep and we are all God's children and all the other typical platitudes, but it won't change the fact that human beings are inherently tribalistic, we form communal connections and forge a group identity based on visible, stark and obvious distinguishing features, and the biggest of this phenotypical physical appearance, in the form of race. When massive demographic changes are foisted on societies ill-suited to handle them, the result is lack of social cohesion and a massive social backlash from the racial group that feels threatened, alienated and displaced in their own country. As long as these demographic changes continue, white support for fascist movements in these countries will increase until fascism becomes inevitably popular.

---

Too bad people are bashing fash with no evidence that they are fascists (let alone proof), other than they disagree with the anti-fascists.

Patrick Hermansson spent a year undercover in the alt-right for Hope Not Hate. But sure, they just go around beating up any rando who looks at them wrong. Gathering intelligence? Nah, course not.

I'm sorry, you call those a 'few' stories? Would you like more stories, if those aren't enough for you? Like how they attack random senior citizens driving in Portland (https://www.foxnews.com/us/portland-antifa-protesters-caught-on-video-bullying-elderly-motorist-woman-in-wheelchair), attacking cops in DC (https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/item/29773-antifa-goons-attack-cops-in-dc-charlottesville-want-to-kill-trump), journalists in Toronto (https://dailycaller.com/2018/08/13/antifa-violence-cops-journalists/), attacking an NBC journalist in Charlottesville (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/cnn-journalists-criticize-antifa-protester-for-attacking-nbc-reporter-at-unite-the-right-rally)? How many more examples do I need to cite before you finally see ANTIFA as the threat they are?

Also, as for your claims that I was just 'extrapolating', the numbers I cited about demographic changes in the US and UK are supported by evidence and reliable projections, based on the existing demographic of younger generations and expected immigration. The US Census projects non-Hispanic whites will be a minority in the US in 2045 (https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2018/03/14/the-us-will-become-minority-white-in-2045-census-projects/) and an Oxford study found Whites will be a minority in the UK in 2066 (https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/uk/By-2066-white-Britons-to-become-minority-Study/articleshow/6958214.cms). Those are just facts, plain and simple.

[Torrocca]

Misgendering aside, I'm totally arguing for fucking death squads to roam around Eastern Europe to help perpetuate a genocide by killing 1,500,000 people - just, y'know, this time against Fascists. Riiight.

Be honest, would you really care if your fellow lefties shot up an NSM rally and killed some Nazis? Because I feel like I've interacted with you enough to know that you'd be pretty gleeful about it.

I'd be annoyed if they didn't let the Nazis attack first so they'd have a legal case for self-defense. That's just bad praxis. Nonplussed otherwise.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Again, "Seize the Means of Production!" doesn't fucking mean seizing personal assets. At the absolute worse, those things would end up becoming meaningless. At best, literally nothing would happen except they'd probably have their shares, stocks, bonds and shit in democratic businesses (and that'd probably end up getting worked out with them getting monetary compensation or some shit, since that probably would no longer be legal depending on the form of Socialism being practiced).

Hands off my toothbrush, commie.

---

Try asking a masked antifa thug to prove it while they're beating you up.

Patrick Hermansson spent a year undercover in the alt-right for Hope Not Hate. But sure, they just go around beating up any rando who looks at them wrong. Gathering intelligence? Nah, course not.

Did I say that all of antifa were like that?

[Purgatio]

Fine, I'll bite - how, precisely, do you intend to non-violently expropriate my parents' shares, stocks, bonds, gilts, other equities, mutual funds and pensions rights? How do you intend to achieve that without force, violence or coercion of any kind?

Again, "Seize the Means of Production!" doesn't fucking mean seizing personal assets. At the absolute worse, those things would end up becoming meaningless. At best, literally nothing would happen except they'd probably have their shares, stocks, bonds and shit in democratic businesses (and that'd probably end up getting worked out with them getting monetary compensation or some shit, since that probably would no longer be legal depending on the form of Socialism being practiced).

And how does a private or sole proprietorship business become a 'democratic business' without violent coercion of the existing legal proprietor in some form to accept the new system of 'democratic' ownership?

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Patrick Hermansson spent a year undercover in the alt-right for Hope Not Hate. But sure, they just go around beating up any rando who looks at them wrong. Gathering intelligence? Nah, course not.

Y'see, we're too smooth-brained and stupid to do something as simple as intel-gathering operations. Not a single anti-Fascist in the history of ever has had access to the Internet or heard stories about espionage and infiltration strategies. Hell, not even the people who actually fought Fascist in a World War knew how to use espionage. Fuckin' Fascists got some kinda mind ray or some shit that turns their enemies stupid.

Try asking a masked antifa thug to prove it while they're beating you up.

... I'm pretty sure they'd see I'm not a Fascist when I'd be standing side-by-side with them at a counterprotest.

What if you weren't standing side by side with them?

[Torrocca]

Again, "Seize the Means of Production!" doesn't fucking mean seizing personal assets. At the absolute worse, those things would end up becoming meaningless. At best, literally nothing would happen except they'd probably have their shares, stocks, bonds and shit in democratic businesses (and that'd probably end up getting worked out with them getting monetary compensation or some shit, since that probably would no longer be legal depending on the form of Socialism being practiced).

And how does a private or sole proprietorship business become a 'democratic business' without violent coercion of the existing legal proprietor in some form to accept the new system of 'democratic' ownership?

Theoretically speaking, a sole proprietorship is owned by a worker-owner and wouldn't have to worry about that at all. It falls under the same theory as worker cooperatives, technically speaking, where the people are democratically worker-owners.

[Purgatio]

Patrick Hermansson spent a year undercover in the alt-right for Hope Not Hate. But sure, they just go around beating up any rando who looks at them wrong. Gathering intelligence? Nah, course not.

Y'see, we're too smooth-brained and stupid to do something as simple as intel-gathering operations. Not a single anti-Fascist in the history of ever has had access to the Internet or heard stories about espionage and infiltration strategies. Hell, not even the people who actually fought Fascist in a World War knew how to use espionage. Fuckin' Fascists got some kinda mind ray or some shit that turns their enemies stupid.

Try asking a masked antifa thug to prove it while they're beating you up.

... I'm pretty sure they'd see I'm not a Fascist when I'd be standing side-by-side with them at a counterprotest.

I've given example after example of ANTIFA attacking perfectly innocent people - journalists covering events, US Marines who were just walking by, literally senior citizens driving in cars. These animals and savages are just bloodthirsty and violent people who attack anyone in the nearby vicinity on the thinly-veiled pretext of 'I thought he was a fascist', you are naive if you think you or anyone else is 100% safe.

[Torrocca]

Y'see, we're too smooth-brained and stupid to do something as simple as intel-gathering operations. Not a single anti-Fascist in the history of ever has had access to the Internet or heard stories about espionage and infiltration strategies. Hell, not even the people who actually fought Fascist in a World War knew how to use espionage. Fuckin' Fascists got some kinda mind ray or some shit that turns their enemies stupid.



... I'm pretty sure they'd see I'm not a Fascist when I'd be standing side-by-side with them at a counterprotest.

What if you weren't standing side by side with them?

... You do realize visual indicators, like patches or flags or shit, exist, right?

Like, Xeno, I know you're smarter than this.

[Torrocca]

Y'see, we're too smooth-brained and stupid to do something as simple as intel-gathering operations. Not a single anti-Fascist in the history of ever has had access to the Internet or heard stories about espionage and infiltration strategies. Hell, not even the people who actually fought Fascist in a World War knew how to use espionage. Fuckin' Fascists got some kinda mind ray or some shit that turns their enemies stupid.



... I'm pretty sure they'd see I'm not a Fascist when I'd be standing side-by-side with them at a counterprotest.

I've given example after example of ANTIFA attacking perfectly innocent people - journalists covering events, US Marines who were just walking by, literally senior citizens driving in cars. These animals and savages are just bloodthirsty and violent people who attack anyone in the nearby vicinity on the thinly-veiled pretext of 'I thought he was a fascist', you are naive if you think you or anyone else is 100% safe.

Are you just gonna ignore the earlier parts of conversation we had where I said I'd like AntiFa to do better to reduce or completely nullify incidents of innocents getting attacked?

[Ifreann]

Patrick Hermansson spent a year undercover in the alt-right for Hope Not Hate. But sure, they just go around beating up any rando who looks at them wrong. Gathering intelligence? Nah, course not.

Y'see, we're too smooth-brained and stupid to do something as simple as intel-gathering operations. Not a single anti-Fascist in the history of ever has had access to the Internet or heard stories about espionage and infiltration strategies. Hell, not even the people who actually fought Fascist in a World War knew how to use espionage. Fuckin' Fascists got some kinda mind ray or some shit that turns their enemies stupid.

A kid in a hoodie picks a fight somewhere in America: "AnTiFa attacks at random! You could be next!"
Anti-fascists infiltrate fascist groups, watch who's talking to who, learn the language, lurk fascist forums and discord servers, probably keep better tabs on fascists than the fucking police do: *crickets*

[Elletolis]

"Conspiracy to commit murder" is a crime I don't often see people having a problem with.

Yet somehow, when it comes to talking about "conspiracy to replace the government with an institution that will actively carry out racial genocide against potentially millions of people" people seem to think it becomes a matter of free speech and freedom of association.

I'm still having trouble processing that.

[Arkhane]

... You do realize I've already argued against them attacking non-Fascists in this very thread, correct?

See that's the thing, you actually believe that violence is just a door you can open for a small amount, just a small peek, and let in a specific type of particle to come in and exclude the rest. No, that's not how it works with humanity and history. You justified punching Nazis, what's stopping them from justifying hitting you back AND more.

You're expecting a large group of people to have the same, uniform, filtered idea of what a Nazi is and at the same time underestimating what Nazis have done and can do.

If you truly believe they're evil, unreasonable people, you know that assaulting them will further give them excuse to "avenge" themselves and attack not only "anti-fascists", but everyone they deem a threat...and even those who are not a threat but don't meet their standards of what a human should be.

If you truly believe they're manipulative and divisive, you'll know that they keep videos and reports of "anti-fascist assaulting "innocent" speaker/protester" as propaganda to rile up their fellow Nazis and make them more active.

You assaulting them gives them the victim narrative and makes like-minded AND non-like minded BUT sympathetic people open to listening and entertaining their concepts.

Actual white supremacists and Nazis are using the current climate of intolerance and violence by using the "We were just minding our business and saying our *cough*bigoted*cough* opinions when these anti-fascists punched us!"

You're not dampening the flame, you're fueling it.

[Purgatio]

I've given example after example of ANTIFA attacking perfectly innocent people - journalists covering events, US Marines who were just walking by, literally senior citizens driving in cars. These animals and savages are just bloodthirsty and violent people who attack anyone in the nearby vicinity on the thinly-veiled pretext of 'I thought he was a fascist', you are naive if you think you or anyone else is 100% safe.

Are you just gonna ignore the earlier parts of conversation we had where I said I'd like AntiFa to do better to reduce or completely nullify incidents of innocents getting attacked?

Because its useless to say "I wish you'd not hurt innocent people" if you also morally endorse a group attacking people they individual deem, at their sole and unrestrained discretion, a fascist worthy of being punched in the face like a vigilante goon squad above the law. Once you support such a system, it works on autopilot and said goon squad will start attacking people at their individual determination, a process over which you have no control. So telling us "I don't support violence against non-fascists" is useless as long as you keep supporting ANTIFA as a movement and the employment of extra-legal violence on non-violent individuals.

[Australian rePublic]

I can see some kind of showdown between the left and the right sometime in the future, with us moderates caught in the midsts of it all. I just hope it doesn't escalate to a civil war. If this does happen, it will be the fault of those who oppress free speech, to the point where those who disagree had no peaceful outlet, so turned to violence to have their voices heard, and hopefully it's not at the extent of facism