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Is Fascism Inevitable in the Future of the West?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Is Fascism Inevitable in the Future of the West?

Yes
149
28%
No
364
68%
Other (Posting in Thread)
20
4%
 
Total votes : 533

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Aureumterra
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Posts: 7450
Founded: Oct 25, 2017
Mother Knows Best State

Postby Aureumterra » Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:19 pm

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Just because the attempt turned to shi* does not mean that it wasn't a valid attempt.

Well you'd have to show when communism was attempted.

USSR collapsed rather fast, North Korea is a dictatorial shithole, Cuba is dealing with crippling poverty, Vietnam used to be poor before it switched to a capitalist system with communism as a rubber stamp, same as China
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El-Amin Caliphate
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Founded: Apr 05, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:20 pm

Aureumterra wrote:
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Well you'd have to show when communism was attempted.

USSR collapsed rather fast, North Korea is a dictatorial shi*hole, Cuba is dealing with crippling poverty, Vietnam used to be poor before it switched to a capitalist system with communism as a rubber stamp, same as China

None of those are/were communist.
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LiberNovusAmericae
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Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:22 pm

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:
Aureumterra wrote:USSR collapsed rather fast, North Korea is a dictatorial shi*hole, Cuba is dealing with crippling poverty, Vietnam used to be poor before it switched to a capitalist system with communism as a rubber stamp, same as China

None of those are/were communist.

No, they only self-describe themselves as such, and are admired by communists abroad. They magically became non-communist because you say so. :roll:
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First American Empire
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Founded: Mar 12, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby First American Empire » Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:22 pm

Elletolis wrote:Eh, if there is going to be any kind of revolution against the current status quo in the US (violent or non-violent) it will probably be led by a coalition of moderates and relative-moderates (ie people not on the far-left or far-right) demanding constitutional reform to end the two-party system and poorly incentivized voting practices. Once plurality in politics has been embraced (and someone finally does something to stop morally bankrupt media companies from exploiting fringe issues for profit) extremist won't be able to piggy back off of major parties and movements any longer, and they'll finally crawl off into a corner to die, as they should have decades ago.


The status quo in the US is so entrenched that it would require an unholy alliance between both the moderates and the radical left to overturn it.
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LiberNovusAmericae
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Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:24 pm

First American Empire wrote:
Elletolis wrote:Eh, if there is going to be any kind of revolution against the current status quo in the US (violent or non-violent) it will probably be led by a coalition of moderates and relative-moderates (ie people not on the far-left or far-right) demanding constitutional reform to end the two-party system and poorly incentivized voting practices. Once plurality in politics has been embraced (and someone finally does something to stop morally bankrupt media companies from exploiting fringe issues for profit) extremist won't be able to piggy back off of major parties and movements any longer, and they'll finally crawl off into a corner to die, as they should have decades ago.


The status quo in the US is so entrenched that it would require an unholy alliance between both the moderates and the radical left to overturn it.

What about us Right-Libertarians? Many of us don't like the two party system either.
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El-Amin Caliphate
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Founded: Apr 05, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:25 pm

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:None of those are/were communist.

No, they only self-describe themselves as such, and are admired by communists abroad. They magically became non-communist because you say so. :roll:

And because they literally don't/didn't follow the 3 basic tenets of communism: classlessness, statelessness and no currency. Also, being admire by someone doesn't mean anything in terms of personal ideological standing.
Last edited by El-Amin Caliphate on Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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LiberNovusAmericae
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Posts: 6945
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:28 pm

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:No, they only self-describe themselves as such, and are admired by communists abroad. They magically became non-communist because you say so. :roll:

And because they literally don't/didn't follow the 3 basic tenets of communism: classlessness, statelessness and no currency. Also, being admire by someone doesn't mean anything in terms of personal ideological standing.

Yes, those three things didn't happen because the experiment was a failure. It is an unachievable ideal that results in bloodshed every single time it is attempted. Just because it didn't make it to the end state does not mean it doesn't count as an attempt.
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El-Amin Caliphate
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Founded: Apr 05, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:30 pm

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:And because they literally don't/didn't follow the 3 basic tenets of communism: classlessness, statelessness and no currency. Also, being admire by someone doesn't mean anything in terms of personal ideological standing.

Yes, those three things didn't happen because the experiment was a failure. It is an unachievable ideal that results in bloodshed every single time it is attempted. Just because it didn't make it to the end state does not mean it doesn't count as an attempt.

Doesn't an attempt at something mean you at least got to that point. None of those examples that we're pointed out got to communism, they only got to a variant of socialism.
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Valrifell
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Founded: Aug 18, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Valrifell » Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:31 pm

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:None of those are/were communist.

No, they only self-describe themselves as such, and are admired by communists abroad. They magically became non-communist because you say so. :roll:


There's no consensus within Left-Wing circles regarding if the USSR is what everyone had in mind with Communism, and this has been since the start.

Nobody questions whether or not Nazi Germany or Mussolini's Italy were Fascist.
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Aureumterra
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Founded: Oct 25, 2017
Mother Knows Best State

Postby Aureumterra » Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:38 pm

Valrifell wrote:Nobody questions whether or not Nazi Germany.

Many people do question wether or not Nazi Germany was actually fascist, since Hitler did everything differing to the Fascist Manifesto

Valrifell wrote:or Mussolini's Italy were Fascist.

Two things:
  • Mussolini invented Fascism (or at least had a part in it)
  • Mussolini didn’t follow his own definition in terms of ideology
The closest state in history to true fascism was Francoist Spain, but even then, it didn’t have socialism, which is a core part of fascism
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First American Empire
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Founded: Mar 12, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby First American Empire » Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:42 pm

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
First American Empire wrote:
The status quo in the US is so entrenched that it would require an unholy alliance between both the moderates and the radical left to overturn it.

What about us Right-Libertarians? Many of us don't like the two party system either.


Maybe, but the only way to make real change in the US is to take control of one of the two main parties and get control of both Congress and the Presidency. The Republican party is currently a lost cause for political change, since its two main branches are "polite pro-status quo", and "angry racist pro-status quo". I don't see many Right-Libertarians allying with the Democrats in order to get electoral reforms at the moment, but it would certainly help if enough of them did that.
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LiberNovusAmericae
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Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:50 pm

First American Empire wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:What about us Right-Libertarians? Many of us don't like the two party system either.


Maybe, but the only way to make real change in the US is to take control of one of the two main parties and get control of both Congress and the Presidency. The Republican party is currently a lost cause for political change, since its two main branches are "polite pro-status quo", and "angry racist pro-status quo". I don't see many Right-Libertarians allying with the Democrats in order to get electoral reforms at the moment, but it would certainly help if enough of them did that.

The Republican party is trying to block all candidates for the presidency that aren't Trump (I'm thinking of creating a thread about that.), and the Democratic party isn't under the control of people who want electoral reform.

If the Democrats go in that direction, then I'd support them on that issue, and I hope that a significant amount of us does the same.
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Torrocca
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Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:51 pm

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:None of those are/were communist.

No, they only self-describe themselves as such, and are admired by communists abroad. They magically became non-communist because you say so. :roll:


Yes, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics actually called itself the Union of Soviet Communist Republics. In other news, the Democratic People's Republic of North Korea is single-handedly the freest and most democratic place on Earth, and National Socialists are Socialists. :roll:

Aureumterra wrote:
Valrifell wrote:or Mussolini's Italy were Fascist.

Two things:
  • Mussolini invented Fascism (or at least had a part in it)
  • Mussolini didn’t follow his own definition in terms of ideology
The closest state in history to true fascism was Francoist Spain, but even then, it didn’t have socialism, which is a core part of fascism


Lol, this amazing fucking meme again. No, Socialism is not a core part of any Fascist ideology anywhere. There's a damn good reason why the Francoists, Mussolini's Italy, and Nazi Germany were all dialectically opposed to Socialists.
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LiberNovusAmericae
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Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:00 pm

Torrocca wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:No, they only self-describe themselves as such, and are admired by communists abroad. They magically became non-communist because you say so. :roll:


Yes, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics actually called itself the Union of Soviet Communist Republics. In other news, the Democratic People's Republic of North Korea is single-handedly the freest and most democratic place on Earth, and National Socialists are Socialists. :roll:

The Communist Party of the Soviet Union described itself as communist. It wasn't like it was the only legal political party in the country. :roll:
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Torrocca
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Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:07 pm

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Yes, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics actually called itself the Union of Soviet Communist Republics. In other news, the Democratic People's Republic of North Korea is single-handedly the freest and most democratic place on Earth, and National Socialists are Socialists. :roll:

The Communist Party of the Soviet Union described itself as communist. It wasn't like it was the only legal political party in the country. :roll:


Whoa, a party that called itself Communist? That's so cool! And did they implement any of the well-known Communist ideas that make Communism, Communism, such as social ownership of the means of production? How about a stateless, classless, moneyless society? What about equality?
Communist now and forever.
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"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
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United States of Natan
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Founded: Jul 21, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby United States of Natan » Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:09 pm

No. In today's day and age, fascism will always give way to democracy. It may take a while, but it always happens. You cannot have an educated populace deprived of their rights.
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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:13 pm

Torrocca wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:The Communist Party of the Soviet Union described itself as communist. It wasn't like it was the only legal political party in the country. :roll:


Whoa, a party that called itself Communist? That's so cool! And did they implement any of the well-known Communist ideas that make Communism, Communism, such as social ownership of the means of production? How about a stateless, classless, moneyless society? What about equality?

You just used a self-described name as an argument for what that thing was, and now you're dismissing someone else doing the same fucking thing.
Yes, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics actually called itself the Union of Soviet Communist Republics.
Last edited by Genivaria on Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Torrocca
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Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:19 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Whoa, a party that called itself Communist? That's so cool! And did they implement any of the well-known Communist ideas that make Communism, Communism, such as social ownership of the means of production? How about a stateless, classless, moneyless society? What about equality?

You just used a self-described name as an argument for what that thing was, and now you're dismissing someone else doing the same fucking thing.
Yes, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics actually called itself the Union of Soviet Communist Republics.


It's almost like, when that quote of mine's taken into the complete context I had it in that is my entire post, that I don't consider the USSR to have been very much Socialist, either, and that the name alone doesn't make it such. :roll:
Communist now and forever.
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"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - [b]Buenaventura Durruti

"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

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Saiwania
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Founded: Jun 30, 2008
New York Times Democracy

Postby Saiwania » Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:07 pm

Adolf Hitler is my favorite politician. Sure, he's not perfect and made a lot of dumb decisions- but... he was still overall, the best Germany has ever had. His not listening to his generals on the Eastern Front, actually saved the situation a few times. He had the correct broad strategic view in wanting to capture the Caucasus instead of driving straight towards Moscow. Moscow's fall wouldn't have gained anything for the Germans like the capture of oil fields would have. Soviets would simply retreat to Ural mountains and use scorched earth until they recaptured Moscow again if Moscow was taken.

Hitler has politics I'd like to see more of on the world stage, well- asides from being so anti-Jew and anti-Slav when those peoples could've been assets, but raised in a different environment, he'd probably have different priorities in mind that're more relevant and less counterproductive.

The ultimate political leader I can get behind in my mind, is someone whom I can call daddy. Someone who can keep me safe, but will tell me what to do within reason.

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Great Minarchistan
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Founded: Jan 08, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Great Minarchistan » Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:10 pm

San Lumen wrote:
The Man Who Shot Jiminy Cricket wrote:Liberal democracy is perhaps unaffordable, but fascism remains far too much of a fringe for it to get the support it would need to seize power.

The said the same thing about Germany in the 1930s. Or that fringe far right groups would never take power again. They did in Hungary

Yeah, the conditions of a country that was neck-deep into an economic fallout are comparable to the milquetoast post-08 stagnation :roll:

I'd also defy the notion that fascism and nazism were far-right -- they were totalitarian for sure, but that doesn't excuse peddling for the horseshoe bs.
Last edited by Great Minarchistan on Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kragholm Free States
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Kragholm Free States » Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:12 pm

Saiwania wrote:Adolf Hitler is my favorite politician. Sure, he's not perfect and made a lot of dumb decisions- but... he was still overall, the best Germany has ever had. His not listening to his generals on the Eastern Front, actually saved the situation a few times. He had the correct broad strategic view in wanting to capture the Caucasus instead of driving straight towards Moscow. Moscow's fall wouldn't have gained anything for the Germans like the capture of oil fields would have. Soviets would simply retreat to Ural mountains and use scorched earth until they recaptured Moscow again if Moscow was taken.

Hitler has politics I'd like to see more of on the world stage, well- asides from being so anti-Jew and anti-Slav when those peoples could've been assets, but raised in a different environment, he'd probably have different priorities in mind that're more relevant and less counterproductive.

The ultimate political leader I can get behind in my mind, is someone whom I can call daddy. Someone who can keep me safe, but will tell me what to do within reason.


oooh daddy hitler I've been a naughty little untermensch gas me harder
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Great Minarchistan
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Ex-Nation

Postby Great Minarchistan » Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:13 pm

Kragholm Free States wrote:
Saiwania wrote:Adolf Hitler is my favorite politician. Sure, he's not perfect and made a lot of dumb decisions- but... he was still overall, the best Germany has ever had. His not listening to his generals on the Eastern Front, actually saved the situation a few times. He had the correct broad strategic view in wanting to capture the Caucasus instead of driving straight towards Moscow. Moscow's fall wouldn't have gained anything for the Germans like the capture of oil fields would have. Soviets would simply retreat to Ural mountains and use scorched earth until they recaptured Moscow again if Moscow was taken.

Hitler has politics I'd like to see more of on the world stage, well- asides from being so anti-Jew and anti-Slav when those peoples could've been assets, but raised in a different environment, he'd probably have different priorities in mind that're more relevant and less counterproductive.

The ultimate political leader I can get behind in my mind, is someone whom I can call daddy. Someone who can keep me safe, but will tell me what to do within reason.


oooh daddy hitler I've been a naughty little untermensch gas me harder

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The Galactic Liberal Democracy
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Founded: Jun 13, 2018
New York Times Democracy

Postby The Galactic Liberal Democracy » Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:24 pm

Saiwania wrote:Adolf Hitler is my favorite politician. Sure, he's not perfect and made a lot of dumb decisions- but... he was still overall, the best Germany has ever had. His not listening to his generals on the Eastern Front, actually saved the situation a few times. He had the correct broad strategic view in wanting to capture the Caucasus instead of driving straight towards Moscow. Moscow's fall wouldn't have gained anything for the Germans like the capture of oil fields would have. Soviets would simply retreat to Ural mountains and use scorched earth until they recaptured Moscow again if Moscow was taken.

Hitler has politics I'd like to see more of on the world stage, well- asides from being so anti-Jew and anti-Slav when those peoples could've been assets, but raised in a different environment, he'd probably have different priorities in mind that're more relevant and less counterproductive.

The ultimate political leader I can get behind in my mind, is someone whom I can call daddy. Someone who can keep me safe, but will tell me what to do within reason.

Please improve the quality of your ironic posts only meant to aggravate people before posting them.
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Aureumterra
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Founded: Oct 25, 2017
Mother Knows Best State

Postby Aureumterra » Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:29 pm

Kragholm Free States wrote:
Saiwania wrote:Adolf Hitler is my favorite politician. Sure, he's not perfect and made a lot of dumb decisions- but... he was still overall, the best Germany has ever had. His not listening to his generals on the Eastern Front, actually saved the situation a few times. He had the correct broad strategic view in wanting to capture the Caucasus instead of driving straight towards Moscow. Moscow's fall wouldn't have gained anything for the Germans like the capture of oil fields would have. Soviets would simply retreat to Ural mountains and use scorched earth until they recaptured Moscow again if Moscow was taken.

Hitler has politics I'd like to see more of on the world stage, well- asides from being so anti-Jew and anti-Slav when those peoples could've been assets, but raised in a different environment, he'd probably have different priorities in mind that're more relevant and less counterproductive.

The ultimate political leader I can get behind in my mind, is someone whom I can call daddy. Someone who can keep me safe, but will tell me what to do within reason.


oooh daddy hitler I've been a naughty little untermensch gas me harder

:rofl: :clap: This one’s going in the sig
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Greater Loegria
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Founded: Jan 15, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Greater Loegria » Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:37 pm

Saiwania wrote:Adolf Hitler is my favorite politician. Sure, he's not perfect and made a lot of dumb decisions- but... he was still overall, the best Germany has ever had. His not listening to his generals on the Eastern Front, actually saved the situation a few times. He had the correct broad strategic view in wanting to capture the Caucasus instead of driving straight towards Moscow. Moscow's fall wouldn't have gained anything for the Germans like the capture of oil fields would have. Soviets would simply retreat to Ural mountains and use scorched earth until they recaptured Moscow again if Moscow was taken.

Hitler has politics I'd like to see more of on the world stage, well- asides from being so anti-Jew and anti-Slav when those peoples could've been assets, but raised in a different environment, he'd probably have different priorities in mind that're more relevant and less counterproductive.

The ultimate political leader I can get behind in my mind, is someone whom I can call daddy. Someone who can keep me safe, but will tell me what to do within reason.

Excellent satire. Otherwise, dear help you like.
CONFŒDERATIO MAGNA LŒGRIÆ
Y Gynghraig Lloegreg Mawr

If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.-J.R.R Tolkien
A theocratic military junta, a Brythonic ennobled republic with a Roman flair. Imperialistic and Nationalistic, balancing deep social conservatism with a social economy. 260 million strong, led by a Lord Chancellor from the ancient city of Caer Ddywfol
Tradionalist Catholic British Nationalist
Pro: Christianity, Nationalism, Traditionalism, Environmentalism, Ruralism, Integralism and Ancestral Heritage
Anti: Globalism, Progressivism, Capitalism, Socialism, Immigration, Neo-Liberalism
British Catholic Student of Classical Antiquity. Fond of pints, rugger, the outdoors and Western Classical Arts. Reservist-in-Training

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