Brunei plans to pass law to stone homosexuals

[The New California Republic]

(Is that "behavior" fairly common, I need to ask? Because as far as I can tell, and having lived for years there, I did not see it being common. But maybe within the two years I've been outside, it's increased - who knows?

Umm...perhaps because Brunei suppresses it, meaning that LGBT people are afraid to be noticed?

[Caliphate of Harlem]

Absolutely appalling! Stoning is atavistic and barbaric. They should be hanged.

Hanging is atavistic and barbaric. They should be electrocuted!

[Astoriya]

(Is that "behavior" fairly common, I need to ask? Because as far as I can tell, and having lived for years there, I did not see it being common. But maybe within the two years I've been outside, it's increased - who knows?

Umm...perhaps because Brunei suppresses it, meaning that LGBT people are afraid to be noticed?

Hmm, good point
(although IIRC there was at least one person who told me they were gay - however they were foreigners, if my memory serves)

You're testing my patience, you know that?
Since you're that obsessed with wanting to know what I've said, I've already explained in the past few pages
1. they have a moratorium in place, and haven't put anyone to death since December 1857 (before independence)
2. no one has yet been arrested for gay sex (as of now)
3. the country has no executioners

1. That can very easily change with the implementation of this new penal code.
(How so?)
2, Citation Needed And again my point is you have given nothing to back up the idea they won't implant these new laws.
(I already explained - however do you have anything to back up your claims?)
3. So? Your acting like they can't easily get some people to chuck stones at them.
(you're not your, but I'll skip - point already brought up by another person, answered already)

But I stay, because there are far too many people that have warped ideas about this whole thing - and no, this does not mean that I support it

If you think we are misinterpreting the situation provide some articles or something to help clarify instead of just claiming shit.
(Look back through the pages - you haven't given jack shit to back up your claims either, so get off that high horse)

[Caliphate of Harlem]

(Is that "behavior" fairly common, I need to ask? Because as far as I can tell, and having lived for years there, I did not see it being common. But maybe within the two years I've been outside, it's increased - who knows?

Umm...perhaps because Brunei suppresses it, meaning that LGBT people are afraid to be noticed?

I’d wager that the reason that the whole gay rights thing never caught on the way the ‘women’s liberation movement’ did, is because it gays aren’t common and a lot of people probably don’t know what the word even means. I’m not saying that people don’t have same-sex relationships, in the parts of MENA I’ve visited that’s pretty common, but none of those people really think of themselves as gay. There never really was a gay culture, no gay bars, no gay parts of town, no flags or pride parades, so for all practical purpose there exist no gays just men/women who fuck other men/women sometimes openly and sometimes not openly. I’m not saying there aren’t people that see themselves as gay over there, but most people who have same sex don’t really care. I know people who hate the word and won’t associate with it even though there openly sleeping with other men. I’m guessing it’s probably the same story in Brunei.

[Astoriya]

Umm...perhaps because Brunei suppresses it, meaning that LGBT people are afraid to be noticed?

I’d wager that the reason that the whole gay rights thing never caught on the way the ‘women’s liberation movement’ did, is because it gays aren’t common and a lot of people probably don’t know what the word even means. I’m not saying that people don’t have same-sex relationships, in the parts of MENA I’ve visited that’s pretty common, but none of those people really think of themselves as gay. There never really was a gay culture, no gay bars, no gay parts of town, no flags or pride parades, so for all practical purpose there exist no gays just men/women who fuck other men/women sometimes openly and sometimes not openly. I’m not saying there aren’t people that see themselves as gay over there, but most people who have same sex don’t really care. I know people who hate the word and won’t associate with it even though there openly sleeping with other men. I’m guessing it’s probably the same story in Brunei.

Pretty much

[Neutraligon]

Umm...perhaps because Brunei suppresses it, meaning that LGBT people are afraid to be noticed?

Hmm, good point
(although IIRC there was at least one person who told me they were gay - however they were foreigners, if my memory serves)

1. That can very easily change with the implementation of this new penal code.
(How so?)
2, Citation Needed And again my point is you have given nothing to back up the idea they won't implant these new laws.
(I already explained - however do you have anything to back up your claims?)
3. So? Your acting like they can't easily get some people to chuck stones at them.
(you're not your, but I'll skip - point already brought up by another person, answered already)

If you think we are misinterpreting the situation provide some articles or something to help clarify instead of just claiming shit.
(Look back through the pages - you haven't given jack shit to back up your claims either, so get off that high horse)

Oh so you are willing to ask for evidence, but are not willing to provide it when presented? Because guess what, the nytimes article is evidence and the Australian government is evidence here is the nice link, which you could easily have gotten from the nytimes article since they linked to it. https://smartraveller.gov.au/countries/ ... .aspx#laws

You want to know why no one has yet to be stoned to death under this law...it might be because the law has yet to go into effect.

[The New California Republic]

I’d wager that the reason that the whole gay rights thing never caught on the way the ‘women’s liberation movement’ did, is because it gays aren’t common and a lot of people probably don’t know what the word even means. I’m not saying that people don’t have same-sex relationships, in the parts of MENA I’ve visited that’s pretty common, but none of those people really think of themselves as gay. There never really was a gay culture, no gay bars, no gay parts of town, no flags or pride parades,

That...really has nothing to do with what I said. I wasn't talking about gay rights, I was talking about the existence of LGBT people in Brunei in the first place.

so for all practical purpose there exist no gays just men/women who fuck other men/women sometimes openly and sometimes not openly. I’m not saying there aren’t people that see themselves as gay over there, but most people who have same sex don’t really care. I know people who hate the word and won’t associate with it even though there openly sleeping with other men. I’m guessing it’s probably the same story in Brunei.

If they have sex with people of the same gender then that makes them homosexual, or at the very least bi, regardless of how they see themselves. I could claim that I am not a human being all I want, but the fact remains...

[Astoriya]

-snip-

In my defence, when I went on the NYT page, it refused to let me see the article until I gave it my money -_-
If you want to be confrontational, then go ahead

[The New California Republic]

-snip-

In my defence, when I went on the NYT page, it refused to let me see the article until I gave it my money -_-
If you want to be confrontational, then go ahead

Nobody is forcing you to be here.

[Neutraligon]

-snip-

In my defence, when I went on the NYT page, it refused to let me see the article until I gave it my money -_-
If you want to be confrontational, then go ahead

Odd since I am not a member of the nytimes and I can see it. I wonder if there is a difference due to country? You have been asked to provide evidence, something people in this thread have provided. Tell me why should you get to demand evidence of something when you have yet to provide the evidence you have been asked for?

This is especially true since it is evident you did not even read the OP.

[Astoriya]

-snip-

And again...

But I stay, because there are far too many people that have warped ideas about this whole thing - and no, this does not mean that I support it

[Neutraligon]

-snip-

And again...

But I stay, because there are far too many people that have warped ideas about this whole thing - and no, this does not mean that I support it

Except...you have yet to provide evidence the views are warped.

[The New California Republic]

-snip-

And again...

But I stay, because there are far too many people that have warped ideas about this whole thing - and no, this does not mean that I support it

Then stop refusing to provide evidence...

[Caliphate of Harlem]

I’d wager that the reason that the whole gay rights thing never caught on the way the ‘women’s liberation movement’ did, is because it gays aren’t common and a lot of people probably don’t know what the word even means. I’m not saying that people don’t have same-sex relationships, in the parts of MENA I’ve visited that’s pretty common, but none of those people really think of themselves as gay. There never really was a gay culture, no gay bars, no gay parts of town, no flags or pride parades,

That...really has nothing to do with what I said. I wasn't talking about gay rights, I was talking about the existence of LGBT people in Brunei in the first place.

so for all practical purpose there exist no gays just men/women who fuck other men/women sometimes openly and sometimes not openly. I’m not saying there aren’t people that see themselves as gay over there, but most people who have same sex don’t really care. I know people who hate the word and won’t associate with it even though there openly sleeping with other men. I’m guessing it’s probably the same story in Brunei.

If they have sex with people of the same gender then that makes them homosexual, or at the very least bi, regardless of how they see themselves. I could claim that I am not a human being all I want, but the fact remains...

Right, but there is a difference between a medical classification (heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual etc.) and the LGBT subculture, the sense of belonging to a community with shared symbols, history, places that are frequented together like gay bars or events like pride parades. So yes, you can say that there are a hell of a lot of people in Muslim countries who engage in bisexual or homosexual behaviour, but none of those people really give a shit about gay rights, many would be confused by the whole idea of calling yourself gay, as opposed to being straight, and having legal provisions or being able to marry. So on the one hand, there exist people who do bisexual/homosexual things, but those things aren’t meaningful for people the way they are here in the West. It’s not something to be proud of, you don’t go around calling yourself gay or demanding legal rights, no rainbow bumper stickers, people don’t care. Bisexual behavior is everyday, it’s as normal and mundane as putting on trousers or watching TV. There is even some hostility towards the idea of gay rights, or even a nonchalant attitude towards it. Makes the whole thing feel pretty pointless.

[Vojelneit]

Brunei's state religion is Islam and it adopted Sharia law. As such it is applying Islam's teachings on homosexuality.

Book 40, Hadith 112: "The Prophet said: If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done."
https://sunnah.com/abudawud/40/112
And the hadith right after that: "If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he will be stoned to death."
https://sunnah.com/abudawud/40/113

The root of the problem is Islam.

[Astoriya]

In my defence, when I went on the NYT page, it refused to let me see the article until I gave it my money -_-
If you want to be confrontational, then go ahead

Odd since I am not a member of the nytimes and I can see it. I wonder if there is a difference due to country? (Maybe - though it did say "You have 0 remaining articles this month.) You have been asked to provide evidence, something people in this thread have provided. Tell me why should you get to demand evidence of something when you have yet to provide the evidence you have been asked for? (*facepalm* How much more evidence do you need, man?)

This is especially true since it is evident you did not even read the OP.
(Contrary to popular belief, I did.)

Then stop refusing to provide evidence...

Then stop refusing to go back a measly few pages...

The root of the problem is Islam.

Yes, because this thread is apparently the Islam-bashing thread...

[Gormwood]

Brunei's state religion is Islam and it adopted Sharia law. As such it is applying Islam's teachings on homosexuality.

Book 40, Hadith 112: "The Prophet said: If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done."
https://sunnah.com/abudawud/40/112
And the hadith right after that: "If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he will be stoned to death."
https://sunnah.com/abudawud/40/113

The root of the problem is Islam.

The people of Sodom demanded Lot turn the incognito angels over to them for a session of Deliverance. So that hadith could be interpreted as "The Prophet said if you find a rape in progress, kill the rapist as well as the victim."

[Vojelneit]

The root of the problem is Islam.

Yes, because this thread is apparently the Islam-bashing thread...

This thread is about Brunei planning to pass a law to execute those found guilty of homosexuality by stonings. When there's a subject so serious at stake I think it's fair to search for the root cause of the problem, so it can perhaps be fixed, you know?
All countries that currently have the death penalty for homosexuality are Muslim countries and Islam itself condones killing homosexuals. That's the reason Brunei, a country applying Sharia law, is enacting this law in the first place. I'm not at all off-topic by pointing that out, nor am I bashing Islam by acknowledging that it does as a matter of fact advocate for homosexuals to be killed.

[Astoriya]

Yes, because this thread is apparently the Islam-bashing thread...

This thread is about Brunei planning to pass a law to execute those found guilty of homosexuality by stoning (yeah, got that thirty-seven days ago). When there's a subject so serious at stake I think it's fair to search for the root cause of the problem, so it can perhaps be fixed, you know? (though the cause you picked isn't IMO the root cause)
All countries that currently have the death penalty for homosexuality are Muslim countries and Islam itself condones killing homosexuals. That's the reason Brunei, a country applying Sharia law (and civil law at the same time), is enacting this law in the first place. I'm not at all off-topic (didn't mention that, did I?) by pointing that out, nor am I bashing Islam by acknowledging that it does as a matter of fact advocate for homosexuals to be killed (the same thing can also be said for Christianity - it even contains the same story pertaining to Lot and his "people").

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Islam itself condones killing homosexuals.

That's a debated topic actually.

[Caliphate of Harlem]

I think it’s important to keep a few things in mind here. Firstly, homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual etc. are all modern medical labels that were made popular in the West by sexologists like Alfred Kinsey. It’s a word that doesn’t have an equivalent in Classical Arabic, historians point out that Muslim societies in the golden age didn’t distinguish between gays and straights. Basically, they assumed everyone was to some extent bisexual. In classical Islamic law, younger men were often segregated from older men in places of worship. Arabic literature is full of same-sex relationships that aren’t morally judged in any way, in fact the Quran does offer ‘handsome young boys’ along with virgins in paradise. What Islamic law only prohibited anal sex, wether it was straight sex or between men, sometimes with harsh punishment. Now, laws explicitly against homosexuality in Muslim countries are recent, only about a century or so old, they were installed by reformists and European governments who wanted to model society on Victorian moral ideals. Often Islamist governments install harsh punishments as a populist move, a show of how Islamic they really are, for the most part Islamists don’t know or care to understand how Islamic law even functioned, their views are theological not juridical. There is no decent religious argument for Brunei’s law, it has no legitimacy whatsoever, it’s like Trump’s attitude towards child detainees, it’s just a show of force that’s pretty inhumane.

Source:
Before Homosexuality by Khaled El Rouayheb
Muslim Rage and Islamic Law by Wael Hallaq

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Islam itself condones killing homosexuals.

That's a debated topic actually.

What if it wasn't? What if Sharia law clearly and unambiguously supported executing homosexuals. Would you support stoning homosexuals?

[The New California Republic]

That...really has nothing to do with what I said. I wasn't talking about gay rights, I was talking about the existence of LGBT people in Brunei in the first place.


If they have sex with people of the same gender then that makes them homosexual, or at the very least bi, regardless of how they see themselves. I could claim that I am not a human being all I want, but the fact remains...

Right, but there is a difference between a medical classification (heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual etc.) and the LGBT subculture, the sense of belonging to a community with shared symbols, history, places that are frequented together like gay bars or events like pride parades. So yes, you can say that there are a hell of a lot of people in Muslim countries who engage in bisexual or homosexual behaviour, but none of those people really give a shit about gay rights, many would be confused by the whole idea of calling yourself gay, as opposed to being straight, and having legal provisions or being able to marry. So on the one hand, there exist people who do bisexual/homosexual things, but those things aren’t meaningful for people the way they are here in the West. It’s not something to be proud of, you don’t go around calling yourself gay or demanding legal rights, no rainbow bumper stickers, people don’t care. Bisexual behavior is everyday, it’s as normal and mundane as putting on trousers or watching TV. There is even some hostility towards the idea of gay rights, or even a nonchalant attitude towards it. Makes the whole thing feel pretty pointless.

This is just a load of noise that does nothing to really address what I said, and I mentioned nothing about LGBT subculture, so I really don't know why you are mentioning it. Is this just a very verbose strawman?

And regarding the "people don't care" part, people clearly do care, as Brunei cares enough to decide that stoning people to death for homosexual behaviour is fine...

[Vojelneit]

This thread is about Brunei planning to pass a law to execute those found guilty of homosexuality by stoning
(yeah, got that thirty-seven days ago)

Oh.

When there's a subject so serious at stake I think it's fair to search for the root cause of the problem, so it can perhaps be fixed, you know?
(though the cause you picked isn't IMO the root cause)

So what's the root cause?

All countries that currently have the death penalty for homosexuality are Muslim countries and Islam itself condones killing homosexuals. That's the reason Brunei, a country applying Sharia law,
(and civil law at the same time)

What does it matter that civil law is applied if Sharia law overrides it?

is enacting this law in the first place. I'm not at all off-topic
(didn't mention that, did I?)

Yes you did. You sarcastically commented that this was the "Islam-bashing thread" as if I was on the wrong thread. I'm not. My observation was entirely relevant to the topic.

by pointing that out, nor am I bashing Islam by acknowledging that it does as a matter of fact advocate for homosexuals to be killed.
(the same thing can also be said for Christianity - it even contains the same story pertaining to Lot and his "people").

No. In the Bible, it is God himself who destroys Sodom and Gomorrha and there is no physical, terrestrial, human intervention at any point. As the Hadith I quoted shows, Islam doesn't just warn homosexuals that they will be punished by God - it advocates for its believers themselves to take the matter in their own hands and kill them.

[Caliphate of Harlem]

Right, but there is a difference between a medical classification (heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual etc.) and the LGBT subculture, the sense of belonging to a community with shared symbols, history, places that are frequented together like gay bars or events like pride parades. So yes, you can say that there are a hell of a lot of people in Muslim countries who engage in bisexual or homosexual behaviour, but none of those people really give a shit about gay rights, many would be confused by the whole idea of calling yourself gay, as opposed to being straight, and having legal provisions or being able to marry. So on the one hand, there exist people who do bisexual/homosexual things, but those things aren’t meaningful for people the way they are here in the West. It’s not something to be proud of, you don’t go around calling yourself gay or demanding legal rights, no rainbow bumper stickers, people don’t care. Bisexual behavior is everyday, it’s as normal and mundane as putting on trousers or watching TV. There is even some hostility towards the idea of gay rights, or even a nonchalant attitude towards it. Makes the whole thing feel pretty pointless.

This is just a load of noise that does nothing to really address what I said, and I mentioned nothing about LGBT subculture, so I really don't know why you are mentioning it. Is this just a very verbose strawman?

And regarding the "people don't care" part, people clearly do care, as Brunei cares enough to decide that stoning people to death for homosexual behaviour is fine...

Brunei is an absolute monarchy. The public have no real say, they don’t debate laws over there it’s all ‘I say, you do’. It doesn’t matter if there are or are not LGBT people in Brunei anyway, it’s a bad law either way.