Brunei plans to pass law to stone homosexuals

[Mystic Warriors]

Learn to read. Your quote was from the new, I asked for the old.

Again what Jesus says overrides anything in the Old Testament.
Yes the Old Testament states the Law of Moses includes stoning. Jesus says not to do it.
What Jesus says goes in Christianity.

But again how does your lack of understanding of Christianity theology and whataboutism help oppressed Muslims?
It does not of course. Why are you trying to run interference for Muslim countries who execute gays?

You always get this mad when you get proved wrong? Does jesus tell you to get mad when you are wrong? Tsk tsk.

I am running interference for no silly religion. I am countering that Trump supporter.

[New Sukberia]

Well criticising is not meddling. It's not like we're invading them.

This shit happens in S.A. too, and they are our greatest allies. Right?

Re-read the post. "our government exerts some pressure", "sanctions" seem to indicate "meddling" pretty definitively to me, and I really don't want to argue semantics. If our government were to "criticise" it, that would mean releasing a statement that says "Brunei not cool" and leaving it at that, not trying to intervene in another country's business just because we want complete world ideological domination.

If we wanted complete world ideological domination, then Irak would be a colony. Instead of the Islamo-Light regime we put in place.

[Novus America]

Again what Jesus says overrides anything in the Old Testament.
Yes the Old Testament states the Law of Moses includes stoning. Jesus says not to do it.
What Jesus says goes in Christianity.

But again how does your lack of understanding of Christianity theology and whataboutism help oppressed Muslims?
It does not of course. Why are you trying to run interference for Muslim countries who execute gays?

You always get this mad when you get proved wrong? Does jesus tell you to get mad when you are wrong? Tsk tsk.

I am running interference for no silly religion. I am countering that Trump supporter.

I am not mad. Slightly annoyed yes.
And you are attempting to deflect criticism of Islam by derailing the thread.
The thread is not about Christianity.
We have a Christianity thread.

So you will acknowledge, in the modern world, Islamic countries on average have a much worse record on LGBTQ rights than non Islamic ones?

[Astoriya]

If so, then let me paraphrase - apart from Iran
Is that better ?

Read the source!
Saudi Arabia for one!
Please, if you ask for a source read it!

Let's look closer, shall we?

Iranian media reported that the 31-year-old kidnapped two 15-year-olds. | The unidentified man was hanged on January 10 in the southwestern city of Kazeroon based on criminal violations of “lavat-e be onf” – sexual intercourse between two men, as well as kidnapping charges, according to ISNA. Iran’s radical sharia law system prescribes the death penalty for gay sex.

TL;DR the man was hanged after being convicted of gay sex, and child kidnapping

Now, keep in mind that whenever any crime involves children (eg. kidnapping, rape, murder), it's always met with some form of justifiable dislike, though some people may come up with their own "punishments" which are frequently more bloody than the ruling that the perpetrator will get.

try again?

[Crockerland]

Well you might have heard that on an edgy Youtube atheism channel, but that doesn't actually make it true.

Islam:

https://sunnah.com/abudawud/40/112
"The Prophet (ﷺ) said: If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done."

https://sunnah.com/abudawud/40/113
"If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he will be stoned to death."

Christianity

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+8%3A1-11&version=NLT
"Jesus returned to the Mount of Olives, but early the next morning he was back again at the Temple. A crowd soon gathered, and he sat down and taught them. As he was speaking, the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in the act of adultery. They put her in front of the crowd.

“Teacher,” they said to Jesus, "this woman was caught in the act of adultery. The law of Moses says to stone her. What do you say?"

They were trying to trap him into saying something they could use against him, but Jesus stooped down and wrote in the dust with his finger. They kept demanding an answer, so he stood up again and said, "All right, but let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone!""

Islam says you should kill people for being gay outright.

Christianity does not directly state that you should or shouldn't kill people for being gay, mostly because the Bible doesn't really mention gay people who aren't prostitutes or rapists outside of maybe, sort of, one or two passages in the very old testament, but even if we construe those laws to make being gay to be a sexual sin, the person for who Christianity is named after personally said that you shouldn't kill people for violating those laws.

"If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."


Leviticus 20:13

It's always great when people's responses are answered by the posts they quote

even if we construe those laws to make being gay to be a sexual sin, the person for who Christianity is named after personally said that you shouldn't kill people for violating those laws.

Christians do not follow the law of Leviticus and are not bound by it at all. Even if this were in reference to gay people in general, it wouldn't really matter, as I already explained.

And, again, the idea that this is about gay people in general is rather dubious, hence why gay people don't get put to death in Israel either. Leviticus 20 is dealing with the people of Israel falling back on unholy religious practices, just reading the first few verses makes this rather apparent:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+20&version=KJV
And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

And I will set my face against that man, and will cut him off from among his people; because he hath given of his seed unto Molech, to defile my sanctuary, and to profane my holy name.

And if the people of the land do any ways hide their eyes from the man, when he giveth of his seed unto Molech, and kill him not:

Then I will set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him, to commit whoredom with Molech, from among their people.

And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.

The word for "detestable" in the verse you provided, also sometimes rendered as "abomination", is from a Hebrew word, toevah (תֹּועֵבָה), it has no direct translation to English. Toevah contains explicit connotations with the religiously profane, such as Moloch sacrifices.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/ni/2008/06/have_you_committed_an_abominat.html

So is there any religious connotations to sexual acts of such a nature? Well, the Bible actually names this practice outright in Deuteronomy

[url]https://www.biblica.com/bible/?osis=niv:Deuteronomy.23:17–23:18[/url]
No Israelite man or woman is to become a shrine prostitute. You must not bring the earnings of a female prostitute or of a male prostitute into the house of the Lord your God to pay any vow, because the Lord your God detests them both.

Yep, there were shrine prostitutes, both gay and straight, who had sex with worshipers for religious reasons.

Many people in ancient Israel participated in many perverted or violent acts as part of profane rites that were considered detestable, including gay shrine prostitutes derived from earlier Canaanite religion, and so the book of Leviticus condemned them. This does not constitute a condemnation of all gay people by Christianity. A similar rule applies for Leviticus 20:18's influence on couples who have sex during the woman's period.

Again though, even if that wasn't the case, and you (wrongly) interpret this law to apply to all gay people (again it doesn't) then the Bible really isn't that nebulous on the issue: You shouldn't kill people for sexual immorality, according to the messiah himself.

[Mystic Warriors]

You always get this mad when you get proved wrong? Does jesus tell you to get mad when you are wrong? Tsk tsk.

I am running interference for no silly religion. I am countering that Trump supporter.

I am not mad. Slightly annoyed yes.
And you are attempting to deflect criticism of Islam by derailing the thread.
The thread is not about Christianity.
We have a Christianity thread.

Eat a cookie.

I am doing nothing of the sort. I just wont let him turn this into a Islam bashing thread.

[Astoriya]

Eat a cookie.

I am doing nothing of the sort. I just wont let him turn this into a Islam bashing thread.

We've got one already...

[Mystic Warriors]

"If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."


Leviticus 20:13

It's always great when people's responses are answered by the posts they quote

even if we construe those laws to make being gay to be a sexual sin, the person for who Christianity is named after personally said that you shouldn't kill people for violating those laws.

Christians do not follow the law of Leviticus and are not bound by it at all. Even if this were in reference to gay people in general, it wouldn't really matter, as I already explained.

And, again, the idea that this is about gay people in general is rather dubious, hence why gay people don't get put to death in Israel either. Leviticus 20 is dealing with the people of Israel falling back on unholy religious practices, just reading the first few verses makes this rather apparent:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+20&version=KJV
And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

And I will set my face against that man, and will cut him off from among his people; because he hath given of his seed unto Molech, to defile my sanctuary, and to profane my holy name.

And if the people of the land do any ways hide their eyes from the man, when he giveth of his seed unto Molech, and kill him not:

Then I will set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him, to commit whoredom with Molech, from among their people.

And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.

The word for "detestable" in the verse you provided, also sometimes rendered as "abomination", is from a Hebrew word, toevah (תֹּועֵבָה), it has no direct translation to English. Toevah contains explicit connotations with the religiously profane, such as Moloch sacrifices.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/ni/2008/06/have_you_committed_an_abominat.html

So is there any religious connotations to sexual acts of such a nature? Well, the Bible actually names this practice outright in Deuteronomy

[url]https://www.biblica.com/bible/?osis=niv:Deuteronomy.23:17–23:18[/url]
No Israelite man or woman is to become a shrine prostitute. You must not bring the earnings of a female prostitute or of a male prostitute into the house of the Lord your God to pay any vow, because the Lord your God detests them both.

Yep, there were shrine prostitutes, both gay and straight, who had sex with worshipers for religious reasons.

Many people in ancient Israel participated in many perverted or violent acts as part of profane rites that were considered detestable, including gay shrine prostitutes derived from earlier Canaanite religion, and so the book of Leviticus condemned them. This does not constitute a condemnation of all gay people by Christianity. A similar rule applies for Leviticus 20:18's influence on couples who have sex during the woman's period.

Again though, even if that wasn't the case, and you (wrongly) interpret this law to apply to all gay people (again it doesn't) then the Bible really isn't that nebulous on the issue: You shouldn't kill people for sexual immorality, according to the messiah himself.

Enough cherry picking.


What does that have to do with this?

[Mystic Warriors]

Eat a cookie.

I am doing nothing of the sort. I just wont let him turn this into a Islam bashing thread.

We've got one already...

I thought that was a thread for muslims.

[Astoriya]

We've got one already...

I thought that was a thread for muslims.

Not just for us, but it's also a thread where non-Muslims can debate & discuss, as I see it

[Novus America]

Read the source!
Saudi Arabia for one!
Please, if you ask for a source read it!

Let's look closer, shall we?

Iranian media reported that the 31-year-old kidnapped two 15-year-olds. | The unidentified man was hanged on January 10 in the southwestern city of Kazeroon based on criminal violations of “lavat-e be onf” – sexual intercourse between two men, as well as kidnapping charges, according to ISNA. Iran’s radical sharia law system prescribes the death penalty for gay sex.

TL;DR the man was hanged after being convicted of gay sex, and child kidnapping

Now, keep in mind that whenever any crime involves children (eg. kidnapping, rape, murder), it's always met with some form of justifiable dislike, though some people may come up with their own "punishments" which are frequently more bloody than the ruling that the perpetrator will get.

try again?

The site notes that the fact other charges are included makes it difficult sometimes to tell what charge the death penalty is being used for.
And you said not to include Iran. So it talks about Saudi Arabia too.

[Novus America]

I am not mad. Slightly annoyed yes.
And you are attempting to deflect criticism of Islam by derailing the thread.
The thread is not about Christianity.
We have a Christianity thread.

Eat a cookie.

I am doing nothing of the sort. I just wont let him turn this into a Islam bashing thread.

When Islamic countries to be things in the name of enforcing Islamic law, there is nothing wrong with criticizing Islamic law.

[Mystic Warriors]

Eat a cookie.

I am doing nothing of the sort. I just wont let him turn this into a Islam bashing thread.

When Islamic countries to be things in the name of enforcing Islamic law, there is nothing wrong with criticizing Islamic law.

Law yes, hating people who may not agree with it no

[Astoriya]

The site notes that the fact other charges are included makes it difficult sometimes to tell what charge the death penalty is being used for.
And you said not to include Iran. So it talks about Saudi Arabia too.

All right then, let me reread it...
There are still no mentions of Saudi Arabia - are you sure we're reading the same article? Maybe point me to the source, because I haven't found it.

[Novus America]

The site notes that the fact other charges are included makes it difficult sometimes to tell what charge the death penalty is being used for.
And you said not to include Iran. So it talks about Saudi Arabia too.

All right then, let me reread it...
There are still no mentions of Saudi Arabia - are you sure we're reading the same article? Maybe point me to the source, because I haven't found it.

Seriously?
“2. Saudi Arabia

Saudi Arabia is No. 3 among the world’s most avid executioners, with 90+ in 2014. At least in the past, beheadings were imposed for homosexual behavior, including three men in 2002. Imprisonment and lashings are a more common punishment for same-sex activity.”

https://76crimes.com/10-nations-where-t ... -is-death/

[Novaya Equestria]

I find it ironic that it was called the State of Brunei, Abode of Peace.

[Gormwood]

Sure enough this thread became a denunciation of Islam and all Muslims, even the ones living peacefully and fully integrated in Western countries by conflating all of them together in a vast, monolithic Wahhabist hivemind. And some people act shocked that Christchurch happened at all.

[The Man Who Shot Jiminy Cricket]

When Islamic countries to be things in the name of enforcing Islamic law, there is nothing wrong with criticizing Islamic law.

Law yes, hating people who may not agree with it no

All Muslims think Sharia is holy and ordained by God, but most probably reject this fiqh.

[Gormwood]

I find it ironic that it was called the State of Brunei, Abode of Peace.

North Korea calls itself The People's Democratic Republic of Korea which has been long ironic.

[Mystic Warriors]

Law yes, hating people who may not agree with it no

All Muslims think Sharia is holy and ordained by God, but most probably reject this fiqh.

If I told you what I think I would be banned.

[Novus America]

When Islamic countries to be things in the name of enforcing Islamic law, there is nothing wrong with criticizing Islamic law.

Law yes, hating people who may not agree with it no

Sure, but it is impossible to pretend the majority of Islam today has severe problems.
Sure not all Muslims want to enforce the brutality of the Hadith.
But most do believe the Hadith is divinely mandated.

Much of the Hadith is completely disgusting.

[Astoriya]

All right then, let me reread it...
There are still no mentions of Saudi Arabia - are you sure we're reading the same article? Maybe point me to the source, because I haven't found it.

Seriously?
“2. Saudi Arabia

Saudi Arabia is No. 3 among the world’s most avid executioners, with 90+ in 2014. At least in the past, beheadings were imposed for homosexual behaviour, including three men in 2002. Imprisonment and lashings are a more common punishment for same-sex activity.”

https://76crimes.com/10-nations-where-t ... -is-death/

I apologise, I was reading the wrong link
Anyway
It only mentions a few (only Iran and Saudi Arabia) - all the rest have not recently executed
(as the executions are carried out extrajudicially, or by militias (ie. unofficial armed thugs) as regards Iraq & Somalia, they don't count)

try again? (if this gets annoying, just say so)

[Mystic Warriors]

Law yes, hating people who may not agree with it no

Sure, but it is impossible to pretend the majority of Islam today has severe problems.
Sure not all Muslims want to enforce the brutality of the Hadith.
But most do believe the Hadith is divinely mandated.

Lol

[Astoriya]

I find it ironic that it was called the State of Brunei, Abode of Peace.

Compared with neighbouring countries, it's pretty damn peaceful - far too peaceful, in fact

Sure enough this thread became a denunciation of Islam and all Muslims, even the ones living peacefully and fully integrated in Western countries by conflating all of them together in a vast, monolothic Wahhabist hivemind. And some people act shocked that Christchurch happened at all.

^^^ signal boost this

[Novus America]

Seriously?
“2. Saudi Arabia

Saudi Arabia is No. 3 among the world’s most avid executioners, with 90+ in 2014. At least in the past, beheadings were imposed for homosexual behaviour, including three men in 2002. Imprisonment and lashings are a more common punishment for same-sex activity.”

https://76crimes.com/10-nations-where-t ... -is-death/

I apologise, I was reading the wrong link
Anyway
It only mentions a few (only Iran and Saudi Arabia) - all the rest have not recently executed
(as the executions are carried out extrajudicially, or by militias (ie. unofficial armed thugs) as regards Iraq & Somalia, they don't count)

try again? (if this gets annoying, just say so)

It is getting annoying. And you cannot keep moving the goalposts and say “try again” as a valid debate tactic.
You said name an Islamic country besides Iran.
Easy, Saudi Arabia. Question answered, we are done now.