The Mueller Probe is Complete - Longer OP Edition

[Yusseria]

Here we have typical behavior from someone who is far too afraid to speak to me directly.

Actually I just put you on ignore and opened this because I got curious.

Out of interest, what would i be afraid of?

Debating, I'd imagine.

And by the way, putting people on ignore yet still sub posting them is a hallmark of cowardice. If you have something to say about me then say it directly to me. Otherwise you're even less deserving of respect then you already were... which is saying something.

[Tobleste]

Actually I just put you on ignore and opened this because I got curious.

Out of interest, what would i be afraid of?

Debating, I'd imagine.

And by the way, putting people on ignore yet still sub posting them is a hallmark of cowardice. If you have something to say about me then say it directly to me. Otherwise you're even less deserving of respect then you already were... which is saying something.

So you called me a coward and you're saying I'm not deserving of respect. It's a wonder I don't want to spend more time reading what you write.

This is something many trump supporters/defenders don't get. It's not that the rest of us are afraid to 'debate' with you (debates typically exclude insults), it's more that we're disgusted by the things you believe, say and enable. Saying I'm not talking to you because I'm afraid of debating is like saying I'm afraid of water because I decline to swim through sh!t.

[The Black Forrest]

Bill Barr's fake Mueller report: Is this WMDs in Iraq all over again?

So yeah, there's quite a few disturbing parallels here in how the GOP is playing things.

Why hasn't Mueller said anything if the AG's report is total BS?

He has never been a political guy. A news blip said he will be testify before congress.....

[Conserative Morality]

So you called me a coward and you're saying I'm not deserving of respect. It's a wonder I don't want to spend more time reading what you write.

This is something many trump supporters/defenders don't get. It's not that the rest of us are afraid to 'debate' with you (debates typically exclude insults), it's more that we're disgusted by the things you believe, say and enable. Saying I'm not talking to you because I'm afraid of debating is like saying I'm afraid of water because I decline to swim through sh!t.

What could be more offensive to those who have normalized shit than the refusal of others to normalize it in turn? Do you think you're better than shit or something? Fucking elitist.

[Fahran]

Regarding crimes, tax evasion seems likely,

Tax evasion has been alleged, but that's a separate series of investigations and we have no substantive evidence of tax evasion at the moment. It's also important to note that Trump probably doesn't handle his own taxes. We'd have to subpoena his accountants and financial representatives. This might not materialize until he's out of office and I'd honestly be surprised if he hadn't been audited in the past.

conflict of interest seems almost guaranteed (though afaik that's not criminal)

Conflict of interest is debatable, and I doubt it meets the threshold to be characterized as a crime at this point.

and I'd be amazed if most of the sexual assault claims against him aren't true.

I actually do think that Trump is a sexual predator in the mold of Bill Clinton and Harvey Weinstein. I didn't believe the allegations against Kavanaugh, but I'm inclined to believe the ones leveled at Trump. The issue is actually proving it with concrete evidence. It's unsound epistemology to assume guilt before it can be positively proven.

Regarding immorality, the internet isn't big enough. For one, the fact that half his campaign was corrupt and his own family was willing to collude makes him a horrible choice to pick federal judges.

The summary of Mueller's report suggests that there's too little evidence of collusion by anyone affiliated with Trump's campaign to pursue charges. With regard to corruption, I think you'll find a lot of financial irregularities if you dig into any politician's associates. Most of the indictments had more to do with obstruction or getting caught in lies. He's picks for judges seem to be pretty decent from what I've read, though I'd have picked more conservative ones personally.

None of that would lead to anything criminal or lead to impeachment so I don't think he will be impeached though. It was never a possibility. Trump could confess to everything I just said and there still wouldn't be enough Republicans on board for impeachment to be possible.

If he confessed to high crimes and misdemeanors, it's probable that he would be impeached. He was disliked by a good many Republicans, despite his popularity with the base, and has only managed to stay afloat because the economy is strong and he's not declaring the War on Terror Part II: Electric Boogaloo. Both of these put him on a pretty firm foundation as long as he's quiet and doesn't perjure himself.

The economy was strong before trump. FWIW, when it inevitably declines, it wouldn't be trumps fault either. The economy in the US goes up and down for far more reasons than the POTUS. I see no reason why he gets credit.

It began recovering under Obama and is now doing remarkably well. Because presidents routinely get credit for the economy, whether they deserve it or not, it's not surprising that Trump will get credit for it. Additionally, his trade policies with regard to China are addressing a salient issue that we've been ignoring since at least Bush - unfair trade practices and deliberate attempts to undermine American businesses and people in the market. Nobody wants a full-blown trade war, but nobody should want to get taken advantage of either.

The deficit is increasing and the entire government is currently nihilistic,

Yes, but the deficit arguably increased under Bush and Obama as well and we could wholly expect it to continue increasing under any of the Democrats currently taking the field for the general elections in 2020. With regard to the nihilism, nationalism has the potential to reinvigorate our politics and shift focus away from globalism. The reassertion of moral values, conventions, vestiges of culture, and priorities that come before corporate profits could reverse these trends, which I associate largely with the New Left and the proliferation of neoliberalism/capitalism following the collapse of the Soviet Union.

though I agree about the foreign wars. Clinton was overly aggressive but Trumps approach to Iran and North Korea is too.

He talked tough on North Korea before doing what most of his predecessors did and walking away with no real concessions or deals. His approach to Iran is a reasonable employment of soft power and moral indignation to harm a country that perceives itself as our geopolitical enemy. The IRI has over-extended itself interfering in every conflict in the Middle East. Imposing sanctions because they like executing LGBT+ people and isolating them from the international community could be the light shove that causes their house of cards to come tumbling down in the next decade or so.

I would seriously question the idea that anyone would consider voting for trump due to concerns about culture wars and vitriol. It's the equivalent of backing Korean unification under the rule of Kim Jong Un out of a belief in human rights.

I'm a traditionalist, an agrarian, and a nationalist. I frankly dislike all of the available options, but view Trump as marginally more bearable than anyone the Democrats have fielded since Carter. If he'd support the TPP, stop tweeting, and stick to the script, the number of complaints about him would dry up quite quickly.

[The Black Forrest]

Honestly unless it's actually released it will always be Schrodinger's Report and whether or not that cat is dead inside is going to depend on the viewer. Which, as alluded to in the article Vass linked, might be exactly what the Republicans are going for.

But but the memo exonerated donnie!

A news blip said the AG was going to let the WH edit the report.

It will be a shame if that happens.

Not surprised though, truth is not in donnies character. It will serve his desire for chaos........

[Confederate States of German America]

Can we not? We ought to be gracious in perceived victories. Besides, this isn't really a deep exploration of the issue at hand.

Nah, I'll worry about being gracious when I'm older.

[Yusseria]

Debating, I'd imagine.

And by the way, putting people on ignore yet still sub posting them is a hallmark of cowardice. If you have something to say about me then say it directly to me. Otherwise you're even less deserving of respect then you already were... which is saying something.

So you called me a coward and you're saying I'm not deserving of respect. It's a wonder I don't want to spend more time reading what you write.

This is something many trump supporters/defenders don't get. It's not that the rest of us are afraid to 'debate' with you (debates typically exclude insults), it's more that we're disgusted by the things you believe, say and enable. Saying I'm not talking to you because I'm afraid of debating is like saying I'm afraid of water because I decline to swim through sh!t.

Because you're behaving like one. If you don't wish to be called one than why do you commit cowardly acts? You aren't immune to criticism, fam.

[Yusseria]

So you called me a coward and you're saying I'm not deserving of respect. It's a wonder I don't want to spend more time reading what you write.

This is something many trump supporters/defenders don't get. It's not that the rest of us are afraid to 'debate' with you (debates typically exclude insults), it's more that we're disgusted by the things you believe, say and enable. Saying I'm not talking to you because I'm afraid of debating is like saying I'm afraid of water because I decline to swim through sh!t.

What could be more offensive to those who have normalized shit than the refusal of others to normalize it in turn? Do you think you're better than shit or something? Fucking elitist.

Exhibit B of what I'm talking about. Smug and arrogant, and the usual cowardice with addressing people in subposts rather than speaking to them directly.

Utterly arrogant and pathetic.

[The Black Forrest]

What could be more offensive to those who have normalized shit than the refusal of others to normalize it in turn? Do you think you're better than shit or something? Fucking elitist.

Exhibit B of what I'm talking about. Smug and arrogant, and the usual cowardice with addressing people in subposts rather than speaking to them directly.

Utterly arrogant and pathetic.

ok. What does this have to do with the Muller probe?

[Fahran]

This thread is about the Mueller Report and its aftermath, not about the posters here or their debate strategies. We're also getting a little bit heated and personal.

[Neutraligon]

Actually I just put you on ignore and opened this because I got curious.

Out of interest, what would i be afraid of?

Debating, I'd imagine.

And by the way, putting people on ignore yet still sub posting them is a hallmark of cowardice. If you have something to say about me then say it directly to me. Otherwise you're even less deserving of respect then you already were... which is saying something.

*** Warned for flaming/baiting. ***
Tobleste if you have someone on ignore then you should not be responding to them.

[Proctopeo]

So the guy who got the AG job by saying no one can investigate the president, whose son-in-law recently got a job as a legal adviser to the president, says the president can take the report about his wrongdoings and scribble out any parts he doesn't like before the public sees it

The report is a fraud. He is guilty and abused his power to cover himself.

Nice to see you've gone full conspiracy theorist.
I personally believe that the Roswell aliens did 9/11 and pinned it on Bush who then pinned it on Al-Qaeda.

Bill Barr's fake Mueller report: Is this WMDs in Iraq all over again?

So yeah, there's quite a few disturbing parallels here in how the GOP is playing things.

>Salon
opinion immediately discarded with extreme prejudice
try using actual news for once, Vass

Lets be honest, you're bowling with the guards up. Any response would have played into your narrative including none. You set yourself up for an 'all wins' scenario where you get to take a victory lap regardless of what happens. I mean, the kids who manage to roll the ball down the lane with the guards up seem the happiest, if that's your jam...

The gift that keeps on giving.

It's like playing Spot the Vegan.

[Druulis]

Regarding crimes, tax evasion seems likely,

Tax evasion has been alleged, but that's a separate series of investigations and we have no substantive evidence of tax evasion at the moment. It's also important to note that Trump probably doesn't handle his own taxes. We'd have to subpoena his accountants and financial representatives. This might not materialize until he's out of office and I'd honestly be surprised if he hadn't been audited in the past.

conflict of interest seems almost guaranteed (though afaik that's not criminal)

Conflict of interest is debatable, and I doubt it meets the threshold to be characterized as a crime at this point.

and I'd be amazed if most of the sexual assault claims against him aren't true.

I actually do think that Trump is a sexual predator in the mold of Bill Clinton and Harvey Weinstein. I didn't believe the allegations against Kavanaugh, but I'm inclined to believe the ones leveled at Trump. The issue is actually proving it with concrete evidence. It's unsound epistemology to assume guilt before it can be positively proven.

Regarding immorality, the internet isn't big enough. For one, the fact that half his campaign was corrupt and his own family was willing to collude makes him a horrible choice to pick federal judges.

The summary of Mueller's report suggests that there's too little evidence of collusion by anyone affiliated with Trump's campaign to pursue charges. With regard to corruption, I think you'll find a lot of financial irregularities if you dig into any politician's associates. Most of the indictments had more to do with obstruction or getting caught in lies. He's picks for judges seem to be pretty decent from what I've read, though I'd have picked more conservative ones personally.

None of that would lead to anything criminal or lead to impeachment so I don't think he will be impeached though. It was never a possibility. Trump could confess to everything I just said and there still wouldn't be enough Republicans on board for impeachment to be possible.

If he confessed to high crimes and misdemeanors, it's probable that he would be impeached. He was disliked by a good many Republicans, despite his popularity with the base, and has only managed to stay afloat because the economy is strong and he's not declaring the War on Terror Part II: Electric Boogaloo. Both of these put him on a pretty firm foundation as long as he's quiet and doesn't perjure himself.

The economy was strong before trump. FWIW, when it inevitably declines, it wouldn't be trumps fault either. The economy in the US goes up and down for far more reasons than the POTUS. I see no reason why he gets credit.

It began recovering under Obama and is now doing remarkably well. Because presidents routinely get credit for the economy, whether they deserve it or not, it's not surprising that Trump will get credit for it. Additionally, his trade policies with regard to China are addressing a salient issue that we've been ignoring since at least Bush - unfair trade practices and deliberate attempts to undermine American businesses and people in the market. Nobody wants a full-blown trade war, but nobody should want to get taken advantage of either.

The deficit is increasing and the entire government is currently nihilistic,

Yes, but the deficit arguably increased under Bush and Obama as well and we could wholly expect it to continue increasing under any of the Democrats currently taking the field for the general elections in 2020. With regard to the nihilism, nationalism has the potential to reinvigorate our politics and shift focus away from globalism. The reassertion of moral values, conventions, vestiges of culture, and priorities that come before corporate profits could reverse these trends, which I associate largely with the New Left and the proliferation of neoliberalism/capitalism following the collapse of the Soviet Union.

though I agree about the foreign wars. Clinton was overly aggressive but Trumps approach to Iran and North Korea is too.

He talked tough on North Korea before doing what most of his predecessors did and walking away with no real concessions or deals. His approach to Iran is a reasonable employment of soft power and moral indignation to harm a country that perceives itself as our geopolitical enemy. The IRI has over-extended itself interfering in every conflict in the Middle East. Imposing sanctions because they like executing LGBT+ people and isolating them from the international community could be the light shove that causes their house of cards to come tumbling down in the next decade or so.

I would seriously question the idea that anyone would consider voting for trump due to concerns about culture wars and vitriol. It's the equivalent of backing Korean unification under the rule of Kim Jong Un out of a belief in human rights.

I'm a traditionalist, an agrarian, and a nationalist. I frankly dislike all of the available options, but view Trump as marginally more bearable than anyone the Democrats have fielded since Carter. If he'd support the TPP, stop tweeting, and stick to the script, the number of complaints about him would dry up quite quickly.

Why do you think Trump is a rapist but it's impossible for Kavanaugh to be one?

[Druulis]

The report is a fraud. He is guilty and abused his power to cover himself.

Nice to see you've gone full conspiracy theorist.

So..stating what clearly happened means they're a conspiracy theorist?

Bill Barr's fake Mueller report: Is this WMDs in Iraq all over again?

So yeah, there's quite a few disturbing parallels here in how the GOP is playing things.

>Salon
opinion immediately discarded with extreme prejudice
try using actual news for once, Vass

Like Breitbart?

[Vassenor]

Nice to see you've gone full conspiracy theorist.

So..stating what clearly happened means they're a conspiracy theorist?

>Salon
opinion immediately discarded with extreme prejudice
try using actual news for once, Vass

Like Breitbart?

Sources are only valid if they can be relied upon to be consistently pro-Trump. -nods-

[Ors Might]

So..stating what clearly happened means they're a conspiracy theorist?




Like Breitbart?

Sources are only valid if they can be relied upon to be consistently pro-Trump. -nods-

They who live in glass houses should not throw stones, Vass.

[Vassenor]

CNN Poll: Majority says Trump not exonerated of collusion after Barr's summary

Complete dataset is linked in the article should anyone wish to peruse it in detail.

[Cannot think of a name]

-already handled in an official capacity-

[Ors Might]

CNN Poll: Majority says Trump not exonerated of collusion after Barr's summary

Complete dataset is linked in the article should anyone wish to peruse it in detail.

What is this supposed to prove?

[Tobleste]

Regarding crimes, tax evasion seems likely,

Tax evasion has been alleged, but that's a separate series of investigations and we have no substantive evidence of tax evasion at the moment. It's also important to note that Trump probably doesn't handle his own taxes. We'd have to subpoena his accountants and financial representatives. This might not materialize until he's out of office and I'd honestly be surprised if he hadn't been audited in the past.

conflict of interest seems almost guaranteed (though afaik that's not criminal)

Conflict of interest is debatable, and I doubt it meets the threshold to be characterized as a crime at this point.

and I'd be amazed if most of the sexual assault claims against him aren't true.

I actually do think that Trump is a sexual predator in the mold of Bill Clinton and Harvey Weinstein. I didn't believe the allegations against Kavanaugh, but I'm inclined to believe the ones leveled at Trump. The issue is actually proving it with concrete evidence. It's unsound epistemology to assume guilt before it can be positively proven.

Regarding immorality, the internet isn't big enough. For one, the fact that half his campaign was corrupt and his own family was willing to collude makes him a horrible choice to pick federal judges.

The summary of Mueller's report suggests that there's too little evidence of collusion by anyone affiliated with Trump's campaign to pursue charges. With regard to corruption, I think you'll find a lot of financial irregularities if you dig into any politician's associates. Most of the indictments had more to do with obstruction or getting caught in lies. He's picks for judges seem to be pretty decent from what I've read, though I'd have picked more conservative ones personally.

None of that would lead to anything criminal or lead to impeachment so I don't think he will be impeached though. It was never a possibility. Trump could confess to everything I just said and there still wouldn't be enough Republicans on board for impeachment to be possible.

If he confessed to high crimes and misdemeanors, it's probable that he would be impeached. He was disliked by a good many Republicans, despite his popularity with the base, and has only managed to stay afloat because the economy is strong and he's not declaring the War on Terror Part II: Electric Boogaloo. Both of these put him on a pretty firm foundation as long as he's quiet and doesn't perjure himself.

The economy was strong before trump. FWIW, when it inevitably declines, it wouldn't be trumps fault either. The economy in the US goes up and down for far more reasons than the POTUS. I see no reason why he gets credit.

It began recovering under Obama and is now doing remarkably well. Because presidents routinely get credit for the economy, whether they deserve it or not, it's not surprising that Trump will get credit for it. Additionally, his trade policies with regard to China are addressing a salient issue that we've been ignoring since at least Bush - unfair trade practices and deliberate attempts to undermine American businesses and people in the market. Nobody wants a full-blown trade war, but nobody should want to get taken advantage of either.

The deficit is increasing and the entire government is currently nihilistic,

Yes, but the deficit arguably increased under Bush and Obama as well and we could wholly expect it to continue increasing under any of the Democrats currently taking the field for the general elections in 2020. With regard to the nihilism, nationalism has the potential to reinvigorate our politics and shift focus away from globalism. The reassertion of moral values, conventions, vestiges of culture, and priorities that come before corporate profits could reverse these trends, which I associate largely with the New Left and the proliferation of neoliberalism/capitalism following the collapse of the Soviet Union.

though I agree about the foreign wars. Clinton was overly aggressive but Trumps approach to Iran and North Korea is too.

He talked tough on North Korea before doing what most of his predecessors did and walking away with no real concessions or deals. His approach to Iran is a reasonable employment of soft power and moral indignation to harm a country that perceives itself as our geopolitical enemy. The IRI has over-extended itself interfering in every conflict in the Middle East. Imposing sanctions because they like executing LGBT+ people and isolating them from the international community could be the light shove that causes their house of cards to come tumbling down in the next decade or so.

I would seriously question the idea that anyone would consider voting for trump due to concerns about culture wars and vitriol. It's the equivalent of backing Korean unification under the rule of Kim Jong Un out of a belief in human rights.

I'm a traditionalist, an agrarian, and a nationalist. I frankly dislike all of the available options, but view Trump as marginally more bearable than anyone the Democrats have fielded since Carter. If he'd support the TPP, stop tweeting, and stick to the script, the number of complaints about him would dry up quite quickly.

His allies being caught obstructing an investigation isn't minor. It suggests they're hiding something or are undermining the rule of law.

I disagree on his chances of impeachment. Despite his widespread unpopularity, hes dominant among the base and Fox news. The party elite dislike him but they wouldn't act unless it was in their interest and considering that they need trumps base, they need him regardless of how much he disgusts the rest of the nation.

China should be confronted but his approach comes from a hatred for trade and a misunderstanding of it. He's picked trade conflicts with the rest of North America, China and Europe. If he was smart, he'd build a coalition against China and deal with the main threat.

The deficit increased under Obama's first few years and then declined. The GOP isn't really a believer in fiscal conservatism. If anything, they appear to be trying to bankrupt the government to stop social programs. The Democrats generally pay for what they spend (mostly).

I think if Iran collapses, it wouldn't be a positive. A country with some degree of nuclear technology fighting a civil war or being taken over in a coup isn't an ideal result.

If you identify as a nationalist and dislike every Democrat since Carter, then Democrats were never likely to get your vote in 2020. They should focus on the people who might vote for them and fight for their interests.

I'll think trump will also disappoint you. His nationalism fights for a small segment of the US population. White, Christian and conservative are the 'real Americans'. Trump isn't a uniter. He's an opportunistic race baiter.

[The Two Jerseys]

CNN Poll: Majority says Trump not exonerated of collusion after Barr's summary

Complete dataset is linked in the article should anyone wish to peruse it in detail.

What is this supposed to prove?

That the people polled by CNN are just as salty as the network's anchors.

[Proctopeo]

Nice to see you've gone full conspiracy theorist.

So..stating what clearly happened means they're a conspiracy theorist?

Just because you buy into the conspiracy theory as well doesn't make it not one.

>Salon
opinion immediately discarded with extreme prejudice
try using actual news for once, Vass

Like Breitbart?

Breitbart is closer to actual news than Salon. So, in lieu of anything else but those two options, yes.

So..stating what clearly happened means they're a conspiracy theorist?




Like Breitbart?

Sources are only valid if they can be relied upon to be consistently pro-Trump. -nods-

No, but nice try.
I know you only see sources as "valid" of they're consistently anti-Trump, but projecting is unbecoming

[Luminesa]

What crimes do you believe he committed?


Who precisely are you accusing of concern trolling?


Even if the result is foppery?


We have a strong economy at present, we haven't escalated our involvement in a foreign conflict that we'll abandon in five years, we aren't actively promoting policies rooted in what I would consider a largely nihilistic philosophy, we aren't investing in economic overhauls that will balloon our deficit, etc. I like a good many Democratic positions actually. I actually want to raise taxes and implement a tax on externality costs for instance. I don't mind nationalism and solidarity movements within minority communities under the umbrella of a broader American nationalism. I like immigration reform and criminal justice reform. But the social policies and vitriol are alienating - and the inevitable comparisons to Martin Luther King, Jr. whenever someone calls them out on it aren't really endearing either because the contrast in behavior, rhetoric, and ethics is pretty glaring in many cases. I also doubt that the Democrats will follow through on their promises aside from driving the culture war even further to the left.

Regarding crimes, tax evasion seems likely, conflict of interest seems almost guaranteed (though afaik that's not criminal) and I'd be amazed if most of the sexual assault claims against him aren't true. Regarding immorality, the internet isn't big enough. For one, the fact that half his campaign was corrupt and his own family was willing to collude makes him a horrible choice to pick federal judges.
None of that would lead to anything criminal or lead to impeachment so I don't think he will be impeached though. It was never a possibility. Trump could confess to everything I just said and there still wouldn't be enough Republicans on board for impeachment to be possible.

The economy was strong before trump. FWIW, when it inevitably declines, it wouldn't be trumps fault either. The economy in the US goes up and down for far more reasons than the POTUS. I see no reason why he gets credit.

The deficit is increasing and the entire government is currently nihilistic, though I agree about the foreign wars. Clinton was overly aggressive but Trumps approach to Iran and North Korea is too.

I would seriously question the idea that anyone would consider voting for trump due to concerns about culture wars and vitriol. It's the equivalent of backing Korean unification under the rule of Kim Jong Un out of a belief in human rights.

If we wanted to be completely balanced we would mention that of course, in 2008, there was a pretty bad crash in markets, and some people are only just recently recovering from it. Now was the crash all Obama's fault? Of course not. But he ended-up getting saddled with trying to make a solution the same way Trump is saddled with helping the economy to recover. Has it been recovering? Yes. Will it always be up, up, up for the economy? Of course not.

[Fahran]

Why do you think Trump is a rapist but it's impossible for Kavanaugh to be one?

I believe Trump is a rapist because he's been accused of sexual assault with concrete details included in the accounts by over a dozen women despite the lack of substantive evidence to bring charges against him. I don't believe it's impossible for Kavanaugh to be a rapist. I merely don't believe that there's sufficient evidence to conclude that he is a rapist, even outside a court of law, because we have one credible accuser who didn't include concrete details in her accusation and two less than credible accusers - one of whom has a history of making false accusations. To put it in less abstract terms, I'd feel safe in a room alone with Kavanaugh. I wouldn't feel safe in a room alone with Trump, Clinton, or Cosby.