The Mueller Probe is Complete - Longer OP Edition

[Nazeroth]

Man the reactions to this on places like reddit are amusing to say the least. So many people who previously adored Mueller are now convinced he's a Trump and Russian puppet.

And after years of insisting Mueller is a Clinton puppet in a deep state coup, he's now a paragon of integrity to Trump and co. It's how things work. The about face from both is ridiculous. What is true is that one ridiculous conspiracy theory about Mueller was spread by the Republican president and the left wing equivalent other was something I only just heard you mention that you saw on reddit and hasn't been uttered by any important Democrat which is a pretty good example of how disproportionately crazier the American right is than the left now.

oh boy, this shit is hilarious

crazier than the right?

you mean the people screaming for open borders, removal of ICE, offering sanctuary to illegal immigrants, removal of the electoral college(which of course would give them domination), lower the voting age to 16(again, power play). The people who screamed(including their TOP leaders) that the covington kid was wrong and also that Kavanaugh was a "serial rapist" with ZERO evidence of ANY KIND.

yeah...the right has totally lost it's fucking mind

[Diarcesia]

And after years of insisting Mueller is a Clinton puppet in a deep state coup, he's now a paragon of integrity to Trump and co. It's how things work. The about face from both is ridiculous. What is true is that one ridiculous conspiracy theory about Mueller was spread by the Republican president and the left wing equivalent other was something I only just heard you mention that you saw on reddit and hasn't been uttered by any important Democrat which is a pretty good example of how disproportionately crazier the American right is than the left now.

oh boy, this shit is hilarious

crazier than the right?

you mean the people screaming for open borders, removal of ICE, offering sanctuary to illegal immigrants, removal of the electoral college(which of course would give them domination), lower the voting age to 16(again, power play). The people who screamed(including their TOP leaders) that the covington kid was wrong and also that Kavanaugh was a "serial rapist" wiht ZERO evidence of ANY KIND.

yeah...the right has totally lost it's fucking mind

That or the right hides their craziness better than the left

[Tobleste]

I'm saying there could be plenty of dirt in the report that would look bad for Trump without reaching the bar of criminal conspiracy.

Perhaps, but the Mueller investigation wasn't a fact-finding mission for Trump's political opponents and shouldn't be used as such.

No but it's relevant to whether or not trump is vindicated by the report.

I disagree on whether it should be used as such though. Given trumps nature, everything short of force should be used to remove him.

[Vassenor]

And after years of insisting Mueller is a Clinton puppet in a deep state coup, he's now a paragon of integrity to Trump and co. It's how things work. The about face from both is ridiculous. What is true is that one ridiculous conspiracy theory about Mueller was spread by the Republican president and the left wing equivalent other was something I only just heard you mention that you saw on reddit and hasn't been uttered by any important Democrat which is a pretty good example of how disproportionately crazier the American right is than the left now.

oh boy, this shit is hilarious

crazier than the right?

you mean the people screaming for open borders, removal of ICE, offering sanctuary to illegal immigrants, removal of the electoral college(which of course would give them domination), lower the voting age to 16(again, power play). The people who screamed(including their TOP leaders) that the covington kid was wrong and also that Kavanaugh was a "serial rapist" wiht ZERO evidence of ANY KIND.

yeah...the right has totally lost it's fucking mind

I'm not seeing the crazy here.

[Yusseria]

When none of the Americans indicted had anything to do with collusion, well, yeah it kinda is nothing.

I mean was anyone really shocked to learn people like Manafort were committing financial crimes?

Weren't his financial crimes about not disclosing financial ties with Russia backed Ukrainian oligarchs? And wasn't Trumps lawyer caught lying to congress while trump was being investigated for obstruction?

Only trump and his enablers could read that Trump is neither proven guilty of obstruction of justice nor proven innocent and scream vindication.

That such crimes are dismissed as nothing shows that trump supporters wouldn't care about anything Mueller could have found.

Barr said there was not enough evidence for obstruction, so yeah. Ya got nothing, dude.

[Nazeroth]

oh boy, this shit is hilarious

crazier than the right?

you mean the people screaming for open borders, removal of ICE, offering sanctuary to illegal immigrants, removal of the electoral college(which of course would give them domination), lower the voting age to 16(again, power play). The people who screamed(including their TOP leaders) that the covington kid was wrong and also that Kavanaugh was a "serial rapist" wiht ZERO evidence of ANY KIND.

yeah...the right has totally lost it's fucking mind

I'm not seeing the crazy here.

I know you don't....this is nation states after all.

[Vassenor]

I'm not seeing the crazy here.

I know you don't....this is nation states after all.

Plus generally stuff like that requires using things people have actually said.

[Washington Resistance Army]

When none of the Americans indicted had anything to do with collusion, well, yeah it kinda is nothing.

I mean was anyone really shocked to learn people like Manafort were committing financial crimes?

Weren't his financial crimes about not disclosing financial ties with Russia backed Ukrainian oligarchs? And wasn't Trumps lawyer caught lying to congress while trump was being investigated for obstruction?

Only trump and his enablers could read that Trump is neither proven guilty of obstruction of justice nor proven innocent and scream vindication.

That such crimes are dismissed as nothing shows that trump supporters wouldn't care about anything Mueller could have found.

Everyone already knew Manafort worked with eastern European oligarchs though, this was public record and maybe I'm just an asshole but I assume that anyone who is that cozy with an eastern European government is already a criminal.

Sure Mueller got some indictments but it was nothing earth shattering by any means and already confirmed things we pretty much knew. Yeah, Trump and friends are shady and skirt the bounds of the law, but there was no collusion and no obstruction. It was a nothingburger.

[Tobleste]

And after years of insisting Mueller is a Clinton puppet in a deep state coup, he's now a paragon of integrity to Trump and co. It's how things work. The about face from both is ridiculous. What is true is that one ridiculous conspiracy theory about Mueller was spread by the Republican president and the left wing equivalent other was something I only just heard you mention that you saw on reddit and hasn't been uttered by any important Democrat which is a pretty good example of how disproportionately crazier the American right is than the left now.

oh boy, this shit is hilarious

crazier than the right?

you mean the people screaming for open borders, removal of ICE, offering sanctuary to illegal immigrants, removal of the electoral college(which of course would give them domination), lower the voting age to 16(again, power play). The people who screamed(including their TOP leaders) that the covington kid was wrong and also that Kavanaugh was a "serial rapist" with ZERO evidence of ANY KIND.

yeah...the right has totally lost it's fucking mind

I don't know of many important Democrats calling for open borders, Obama deported millions of illegals, left wing activists are arguing for removing ICE, removing the electoral college would only give them domination because they have more voters, the Covington thing was more the media than the Democrats and witness testimony is evidence.

On the other hand, Republicans have given control of nuclear weapons to the idiot from the apprentice, shrugged while he locks up children, defends attendees at a neo nazi march and foreign dictators and runs a blatantly corrupt administration.

[Tobleste]

Weren't his financial crimes about not disclosing financial ties with Russia backed Ukrainian oligarchs? And wasn't Trumps lawyer caught lying to congress while trump was being investigated for obstruction?

Only trump and his enablers could read that Trump is neither proven guilty of obstruction of justice nor proven innocent and scream vindication.

That such crimes are dismissed as nothing shows that trump supporters wouldn't care about anything Mueller could have found.

Everyone already knew Manafort worked with eastern European oligarchs though, this was public record and maybe I'm just an asshole but I assume that anyone who is that cozy with an eastern European government is already a criminal.

Sure Mueller got some indictments but it was nothing earth shattering by any means and already confirmed things we pretty much knew. Yeah, Trump and friends are shady and skirt the bounds of the law, but there was no collusion and no obstruction. It was a nothingburger.

I think proven that trumps campaign was effectively a convention of grifters and criminals, it should be a big deal though obviously won't.

He also wasn't cleared of obstruction.

It's a nothing burger because the standard for trump is so low that anything short of him referring to Putin as "Comrade" would feel anti climactic.

[Tobleste]

I'm not seeing the crazy here.

I know you don't....this is nation states after all.

You know that Republicans are seen as the extreme ones worldwide? It's not just nation states.

[Fahran]

No but it's relevant to whether or not trump is vindicated by the report.

The intention of the investigation was to verify whether Trump had engaged in conspiracy with agents of the Russian government to influence the American elections. Mueller didn't uncover sufficient evidence of that. Trump is largely vindicated in stating that there was minimal merit to the allegations against him regarding Russia, and it's grasping at straws to state otherwise until evidence materializes.

I disagree on whether it should be used as such though. Given trumps nature, everything short of force should be used to remove him.

Resorting to morally questionable actions to remove a political opponent from power isn't going to endear your political faction to people who don't already belong to it. Honestly, you're just giving Trump more ammunition and making him look like the more reasonable option in 2020. And that's a tall task.

[Yusseria]

Everyone already knew Manafort worked with eastern European oligarchs though, this was public record and maybe I'm just an asshole but I assume that anyone who is that cozy with an eastern European government is already a criminal.

Sure Mueller got some indictments but it was nothing earth shattering by any means and already confirmed things we pretty much knew. Yeah, Trump and friends are shady and skirt the bounds of the law, but there was no collusion and no obstruction. It was a nothingburger.

I think proven that trumps campaign was effectively a convention of grifters and criminals, it should be a big deal though obviously won't.

He also wasn't cleared of obstruction.

It's a nothing burger because the standard for trump is so low that anything short of him referring to Putin as "Comrade" would feel anti climactic.

It's already been said by Barr that there is insufficient evidence for obstruction. If you do not have evidence then it's kind of hard to prove someone did something wrong.

But please, continue grasping at straws.

[Gravlen]

Politically? Probably no difference. But that was a given from the beginning, to be honest, and cemented when Pelosi ruled out impeachment.

A lot of the clamoring to release Mueller's report seems to be politically charged. I'm more or less indifference because I'm skeptical that Barr misrepresented it in any dramatic way. And, if he did, it wouldn't change Mueller's final conclusion.

No, but politically it would matter if Mueller's report suggest, for example, that there's clear and convincing evidence that Trump attempted to enter into a criminal conspiracy, but that the evidence they have doesn't clear the threshold of reasonable doubt (because, say, they lacked criminal intent and were simply incompetent and poor judgement). That would be a huge difference from a report which suggests, for example, that there is no evidence of any attempted wrongdoing.

To put it differently, if it's 80% - 90% likely that Trump attempted criminal acts, the situation should be handled very differently (politically) than if it's 0% - 10% likely that he did so.

Legally? Absolutely. And that's why we should see the full report.

Not having enough evidence to even impeach a person isn't exactly a promising place to begin on a matter of legal consequence.

Well, you don't need evidence to impeach a person, strictly speaking. You just need political will.

To quote Wikipedia and the onward link:

The standard of proof required for impeachment and conviction is also left to the discretion of individual Representatives and Senators, respectively.

The Constitution gives the United States Senate the responsibility for trying impeachments, but does not address the standard of proof that is to be used in such trials. [...] In the final analysis the question is one which historically has been answered by individual Senators guided by their own consciences.

Do you believe we need an additional investigation? And, if so, why?

No, not presently. I believe the report should be released, and we should take it from there.

[Washington Resistance Army]

He also wasn't cleared of obstruction.

Mueller said there was no evidence one way or the other on obstruction and then the DoJ looked over everything and said "Yeah, there's really nothing here."

There is no solid case for obstruction and it's never going to go anywhere, he's as cleared as you can be.

[Tobleste]

No but it's relevant to whether or not trump is vindicated by the report.

The intention of the investigation was to verify whether Trump had engaged in conspiracy with agents of the Russian government to influence the American elections. Mueller didn't uncover sufficient evidence of that. Trump is largely vindicated in stating that there was minimal merit to the allegations against him regarding Russia, and it's grasping at straws to state otherwise until evidence materializes.

I disagree on whether it should be used as such though. Given trumps nature, everything short of force should be used to remove him.

Resorting to morally questionable actions to remove a political opponent from power isn't going to endear your political faction to people who don't already belong to it. Honestly, you're just giving Trump more ammunition and making him look like the more reasonable option in 2020. And that's a tall task.

Lack of a conviction doesn't mean that the investigation wasn't warranted and Muellers job was to investigate Russian interference and any other crimes that are discovered during that investigation.

Concern trolling. Republican senators are calling for investigations into the FBI and Clinton. Me posting on NS is unlikely to swing Wisconsin in 2020.

Also, nothing could be done to sway the people still with trump. They're a lost cause.

[Diarcesia]

He also wasn't cleared of obstruction.

Mueller said there was no evidence one way or the other on obstruction and then the DoJ looked over everything and said "Yeah, there's really nothing here."

There is no solid case for obstruction and it's never going to go anywhere, he's as cleared as you can be.

Or they're good at tying 'loose ends', so to speak. But Trump being Trump, I don't count on that.

[Nazeroth]

oh boy, this shit is hilarious

crazier than the right?

you mean the people screaming for open borders, removal of ICE, offering sanctuary to illegal immigrants, removal of the electoral college(which of course would give them domination), lower the voting age to 16(again, power play). The people who screamed(including their TOP leaders) that the covington kid was wrong and also that Kavanaugh was a "serial rapist" with ZERO evidence of ANY KIND.

yeah...the right has totally lost it's fucking mind

I don't know of many important Democrats calling for open borders, Obama deported millions of illegals, left wing activists are arguing for removing ICE, removing the electoral college would only give them domination because they have more voters, the Covington thing was more the media than the Democrats and witness testimony is evidence.

On the other hand, Republicans have given control of nuclear weapons to the idiot from the apprentice, shrugged while he locks up children, defends attendees at a neo nazi march and foreign dictators and runs a blatantly corrupt administration.

I'm going to go ahead and break this down REALLY simple for you concerning two things.

Electoral College: This allows EQUAL representation for all STATES in our Union. This system is designed to make sure that the ENTIRE NATION is represented, including places like the mid west, so that there needs/concerns are voiced. Removing the electoral college would literally push us into a single-party dictatorship where the only campaigning you would need to do is in NYC, SF, Chicago and other MAJOR liberal cities.

lower population states would literally be enslaved by metropolitan areas.

Lowering the Voting Age to 16: Again, this is a power play by Dems to get more voters. The school system is notoriously left-wing and 16 year olds are also notoriously naive and easily persuaded(shit, I was a communist in highschool for that exact reason).

When the two above are enacted the United States will literally cease to exist as we know it.

[Gormwood]

So the guy who got the AG job by saying no one can investigate the president, whose son-in-law recently got a job as a legal adviser to the president, says the president can take the report about his wrongdoings and scribble out any parts he doesn't like before the public sees it

Link?

[Fahran]

You know that Republicans are seen as the extreme ones worldwide? It's not just nation states.

Again, the United States is socially liberal by global standards. A lot of countries do not support LGBT rights, do not accept refugees, have stricter, more hierarchical class divisions, have minimal segregation between church and state, have harsh penalties for drug-related infractions, regulate the media severely, and employ nationalist rhetoric routinely. You're looking at Europe and a few other countries and then throwing them against Latin America, Africa, and Asia.

[Tobleste]

He also wasn't cleared of obstruction.

Mueller said there was no evidence one way or the other on obstruction and then the DoJ looked over everything and said "Yeah, there's really nothing here."

There is no solid case for obstruction and it's never going to go anywhere, he's as cleared as you can be.

His justice department decided that.

It was never going to go anywhere anyway. It was about finding the truth. Anyone hoping trump would be walked out in handcuffs was being way too optimistic.

[Vassenor]

I don't know of many important Democrats calling for open borders, Obama deported millions of illegals, left wing activists are arguing for removing ICE, removing the electoral college would only give them domination because they have more voters, the Covington thing was more the media than the Democrats and witness testimony is evidence.

On the other hand, Republicans have given control of nuclear weapons to the idiot from the apprentice, shrugged while he locks up children, defends attendees at a neo nazi march and foreign dictators and runs a blatantly corrupt administration.

I'm going to go ahead and break this down REALLY simple for you concerning two things.

Electoral College: This allows EQUAL representation for all STATES in our Union. This system is designed to make sure that the ENTIRE NATION is represented, including places like the mid west, so that there needs/concerns are voiced. Removing the electoral college would literally push us into a single-party dictatorship where the only campaigning you would need to do is in NYC, SF, Chicago and other MAJOR liberal cities.

lower population states would literally be enslaved by metropolitan areas.

Lowering the Voting Age to 16: Again, this is a power play by Dems to get more voters. The school system is notoriously left-wing and 16 year olds are also notoriously naive and easily persuaded(shit, I was a communist in highschool for that exact reason).

When the two above are enacted the United States will literally cease to exist as we know it.

Everybody drink. Because that's not what the Electoral College does in practice. And because you could win the 100 largest cities in the U.S. and still not even be close to a quarter of the vote.

[Yusseria]

Mueller said there was no evidence one way or the other on obstruction and then the DoJ looked over everything and said "Yeah, there's really nothing here."

There is no solid case for obstruction and it's never going to go anywhere, he's as cleared as you can be.

His justice department decided that.

It was never going to go anywhere anyway. It was about finding the truth. Anyone hoping trump would be walked out in handcuffs was being way too optimistic.

But... didn't Mueller also work for "his" Justice Department?

[Gormwood]

Mueller said there was no evidence one way or the other on obstruction and then the DoJ looked over everything and said "Yeah, there's really nothing here."

There is no solid case for obstruction and it's never going to go anywhere, he's as cleared as you can be.

His justice department decided that.

It was never going to go anywhere anyway. It was about finding the truth. Anyone hoping trump would be walked out in handcuffs was being way too optimistic.

Not while he's in the Oval Office anyways, assuming the nation isn't a doomsday prepper wet dream by the time he leaves. Assuming he leaves.

If the U.S. is more or less standing by then the SDNY amongst others are going to Carrie him with a bucket of pig blood indictments.

[Tobleste]

You know that Republicans are seen as the extreme ones worldwide? It's not just nation states.

Again, the United States is socially liberal by global standards. A lot of countries do not support LGBT rights, do not accept refugees, have stricter, more hierarchical class divisions, have minimal segregation between church and state, have harsh penalties for drug-related infractions, regulate the media severely, and employ nationalist rhetoric routinely. You're looking at Europe and a few other countries and then throwing them against Latin America, Africa, and Asia.

True. I should have said by the standards of the developed world. FWIW, on the issue of guns, Republicans are extreme by every standard.