LWDT 7: The Earth and Heavens Tremble.

[Aellex]

>just putting down a rebellion

Let's just conveniently ignore the massacres that've happened in Afrin thanks to the Turkish military and their FSA allies, and let's also just ignore the Turkish government's official responses to the mere existence of Kurdish movements not even inside of Turkey's borders.

They're clearly anti-Kurdish, same as you, really.

>20 or so deads Kurds in alleged Turkish attacks
>"ALL THOSE MASSACRES11111!!!11"

>lack of historical knowledge

It's really, really fucking funny how you keep saying this without even attempting to refute me with any actual written works or whatnot. Not that it matters, much, because it's easy for anyone to see that what happened to the Cathars was genocide.

I've responded to that already and had offered you to give you names of actual reference books on the subject.
Don't bitch about sources when you're the one refusing them.

[Torrocca]

I like how you can do little more than break out insults and not even provide any sources backing up your arguments here.

I've made my case for why the Albigensian Crusade was a genocide using on-hand evidence, you've not refuted it with more than snide pettiness. I've made my case for why your fucked up views of the Kurds and how they, collectively, should be "punished" is bullshit, and all you bring in response is cheap "roasts". I've made it clear why you're implicitly supporting a genocide with evidence of Turkish actions against the Kurds as well as the stated beliefs of the Turkish government, and you just pretend you're doing something entirely different.

It's really pathetic, to be quite honest.

You've made your point by using a screenshot, a Wikipedia link that itself admits that only a single author is making that ludicrous claim and another Wikipedia link to a definition that you then proceeded to repeat without linking in any way what you're claiming with the historical facts.

Firstly, it references multiple accredited historians, including the man who coined the term "genocide" in the first place. Secondly, let's take into consideration the fact that A) Pope Innocent III specifically launched the Albigensian Crusade to eradicate Catharism, B) most Cathars were systematically murdered during the Crusade, C) the remaining Cathars were hunted to extinction by the Inquisition (formed specifically to destroy Catharism) and D) genocide includes the partial or wholesale destruction of religious groups.

Long story short, you're fucking denying a genocide.

[North German Realm]

You've made your point by using a screenshot, a Wikipedia link that itself admits that only a single author is making that ludicrous claim and another Wikipedia link to a definition that you then proceeded to repeat without linking in any way what you're claiming with the historical facts.

Firstly, it references multiple accredited historians, including the man who coined the term "genocide" in the first place. Secondly, let's take into consideration the fact that A) Pope Innocent III specifically launched the Albigensian Crusade to eradicate Catharism, B) most Cathars were systematically murdered during the Crusade, C) the remaining Cathars were hunted to extinction by the Inquisition (formed specifically to destroy Catharism) and D) genocide includes the partial or wholesale destruction of religious groups.

Long story short, you're fucking denying a genocide.

To be fair, that Wikipedia page also mentions that at least one person who opposed the idea that the Albigensian Crusade was a genocide thought so because, and I paraphrase, "there was no Geno to be cided". I am curious about what the argument of those opposing the view that it was a genocide is though.

[Aellex]

You've made your point by using a screenshot, a Wikipedia link that itself admits that only a single author is making that ludicrous claim and another Wikipedia link to a definition that you then proceeded to repeat without linking in any way what you're claiming with the historical facts.

Firstly, it references multiple accredited historians, including the man who coined the term "genocide" in the first place. Secondly, let's take into consideration the fact that A) Pope Innocent III specifically launched the Albigensian Crusade to eradicate Catharism, B) most Cathars were systematically murdered during the Crusade, C) the remaining Cathars were hunted to extinction by the Inquisition (formed specifically to destroy Catharism) and D) genocide includes the partial or wholesale destruction of religious groups.

Long story short, you're fucking denying a genocide.

A) Wrong, a papal legate was murdered and the Cathars declared a rebellion and forced, essentially with a knife to his throat, the Duc of Toulouse to support them; the Croisade was called to put it down and restore order.
B) Wrong again, please read even the god damn Wikipedia page at least before spouting such stupidities; I mean, I'm not surprised you believe it given you unironically used the "God will know his own" quote but still, it's not helping your credibility.
At all.
C) >when he thinks the Inquisition were fucking death squads rather than itinerant preachers from the begging orders
D) Yeah. It includes doing that by murdering them. Which didn't happen. Which you would know if you actually read history books about the Croisade des Albigeois.

Long story short, you're spouting shit about a subject you've no knowledge of, just as usual.

[Torrocca]

Firstly, it references multiple accredited historians, including the man who coined the term "genocide" in the first place. Secondly, let's take into consideration the fact that A) Pope Innocent III specifically launched the Albigensian Crusade to eradicate Catharism, B) most Cathars were systematically murdered during the Crusade, C) the remaining Cathars were hunted to extinction by the Inquisition (formed specifically to destroy Catharism) and D) genocide includes the partial or wholesale destruction of religious groups.

Long story short, you're fucking denying a genocide.

To be fair, that Wikipedia page also mentions that at least one person who opposed the idea that the Albigensian Crusade was a genocide thought so because, and I paraphrase, "there was no Geno to be cided". I am curious about what the argument of those opposing the view that it was a genocide is though.

But that's (what that person said) pretty blatantly wrong when the definition of genocide includes religious groups.

[Aellex]

Firstly, it references multiple accredited historians, including the man who coined the term "genocide" in the first place. Secondly, let's take into consideration the fact that A) Pope Innocent III specifically launched the Albigensian Crusade to eradicate Catharism, B) most Cathars were systematically murdered during the Crusade, C) the remaining Cathars were hunted to extinction by the Inquisition (formed specifically to destroy Catharism) and D) genocide includes the partial or wholesale destruction of religious groups.

Long story short, you're fucking denying a genocide.

To be fair, that Wikipedia page also mentions that at least one person who opposed the idea that the Albigensian Crusade was a genocide thought so because, and I paraphrase, "there was no Geno to be cided". I am curious about what the argument of those opposing the view that it was a genocide is though.

Note that this debate only exist on the english Wikipedia article whereas the word "génocide" isn't even used a single time in the French one, which just happens to be the one to be ranked as a "Good Article" unlike the english one.

It wasn't a genocide because genocide requires a conscious effort to exterminate a people, whether a religious or ethnic one.

The Croisade des Albigeois lacked such intent as the Barons were only there for lands and the Church did missionary work, not eradication one.
Once more, pillage and war crimes a genocide doesn't make.

[Loben]

wasnt the cathars basically a cult if i remember correctly?

[El-Amin Caliphate]

wasnt the cathars basically a cult if i remember correctly?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism

[Loben]

wasnt the cathars basically a cult if i remember correctly?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism

>2 gods.

sounds like a cult to me.

[Salus Maior]

wasnt the cathars basically a cult if i remember correctly?

Cathars were pretty weird, and had some misguided beliefs, but they weren't all bad.

They didn't really deserve the full extend of what was done to them, but given the powers that be at the time, there really wasn't any other way it was going to end.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism

>2 gods.

sounds like a cult to me.

Committing shirk isn't a definition of a cult.

[Loben]

>2 gods.

sounds like a cult to me.

Committing shirk isn't a definition of a cult.

believing in 2 gods, basically pissing over the idea of the Abrahamic master god does sound like a pagan heresy to me.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Committing shirk isn't a definition of a cult.

believing in 2 gods, basically p*ssing over the idea of the Abrahamic master god does sound like a pagan heresy to me.

Yes, but that's not really peeing over the idea. Heresy, yes. Cult/middle finger to Abrahamism, no/not really.

[Loben]

believing in 2 gods, basically p*ssing over the idea of the Abrahamic master god does sound like a pagan heresy to me.

Yes, but that's not really peeing over the idea. Heresy, yes. Cult/middle finger to Abrahamism, no/not really.

do you know what the church *did* to heretics during that age?

[West Leas Oros 2]

Been gone so long i missed the new thread. What's new comrades?

[El-Amin Caliphate]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade:

"The Crusaders captured the small village of Servian and then headed for Béziers, arriving on July 21, 1209. Under the command of the papal legate, Arnaud Amalric,[59] they started to besiege the city, calling on the Catholics within to come out, and demanding that the Cathars surrender.[60] Neither group did as commanded. The city fell the following day when an abortive sortie was pursued back through the open gates.[61] The entire population was slaughtered and the city burned to the ground. It was reported that Amalric, when asked how to distinguish Cathars from Catholics, responded, "Kill them all! God will know his own." Historian Joseph Strayer doubts that Amalric actually said this, but maintains that the statement captures the "spirit" of the Crusaders, who killed nearly every man, woman, and child in the town.[62] Amalric and Milo, a fellow legate, in a letter to the Pope, claimed that the Crusaders "put to the sword almost 20,000 people".[63] Strayer insists that this estimate is too high, but noted that in his letter "the legate expressed no regret about the massacre, not even a word of condolence for the clergy of the cathedral who were killed in front of their own altar".[64] News of the disaster quickly spread and afterwards many settlements surrendered without a fight.[63]"

"After the Massacre at Béziers, the next major target was Carcassonne,[65] a city with many well known Cathars.[66] Carcassonne was well fortified but vulnerable, and overflowing with refugees.[65] The Crusaders traversed the 45 miles between Béziers and Carcassonne in six days,[67] arriving in the city on August 1, 1209. The siege did not last long.[68] By August 7 they had cut the city's water supply. Raymond Roger sought negotiations but was taken prisoner while under truce, and Carcassonne surrendered on August 15. The people were not killed but were forced to leave the town. They were naked according to Peter of Vaux-de-Cernay, a monk and eyewitness to many events of the crusade,[69] but "in their shifts and breeches," according to Guillaume de Puylaurens, a contemporary.[70] Raymond Roger died several months later. Although his death supposedly resulted from dysentery, some suspected that he was assassinated.[71]

Simon de Montfort, a prominent French nobleman, was then appointed leader of the Crusader army,[72] and was granted control of the area encompassing Carcassonne, Albi, and Béziers. After the fall of Carcassonne, other towns surrendered without a fight. Albi, Castelnaudary, Castres, Fanjeaux, Limoux, Lombers and Montréal all fell quickly during the autumn.[73]"

"The next battle centred around Lastours and the adjacent castle of Cabaret. Attacked in December 1209, Pierre Roger de Cabaret repulsed the assault.[74] Fighting largely halted over the winter, but fresh Crusaders arrived.[75] In March 1210, Bram was captured after a short siege.[76] In June, the well-fortified city of Minerve was besieged.[77] The city was not of major strategic importance. Simon's decision to attack it was probably influenced by the large number of perfects who had gathered there. Unable to take the town by storm because of the surrounding geography,[78] Simon launched a heavy bombardment against the town, and in late June the main well was destroyed and on July 22, the city, short on water, surrendered.[79] Simon wished to treat the occupants leniently, but was pressured by Arnaud Amalric to punish the Cathars. The Crusaders allowed the soldiers defending the town as well as the Catholics inside of it to go free, along with the non-perfect Cathars. The Cathar "perfects" were given the opportunity to return to Catholicism.[80] Simon and many of his soldiers made strong efforts to convert the Cathar perfects, but were highly unsuccessful.[81] Ultimately, only three women recanted.[80] The 140 who refused were burned at the stake. Some entered the flames voluntarily, not awaiting their executioners.[82]"

There's a bunch more horrid stuff in there. At least it's was religious persecuti9n at the highest order. At most it was genocide.

[New yugoslavaia]

One question.

Does the alt-right like anime.

If so, if they win then at the very least I can still watch things FOR THE PLOT!

[Torrocca]

Firstly, it references multiple accredited historians, including the man who coined the term "genocide" in the first place. Secondly, let's take into consideration the fact that A) Pope Innocent III specifically launched the Albigensian Crusade to eradicate Catharism, B) most Cathars were systematically murdered during the Crusade, C) the remaining Cathars were hunted to extinction by the Inquisition (formed specifically to destroy Catharism) and D) genocide includes the partial or wholesale destruction of religious groups.

Long story short, you're fucking denying a genocide.

A) Wrong, a papal legate was murdered and the Cathars declared a rebellion and forced, essentially with a knife to his throat, the Duc of Toulouse to support them; the Croisade was called to put it down and restore order.

The Crusade was also called to eradicate Catharism. Let's not skirt around Pope Innocent III's intentions here.

"From the beginning of his reign, Pope Innocent III attempted to end Catharism by sending missionaries and by persuading the local authorities to act against them. In 1208, Innocent's papal legate Pierre de Castelnau was murdered while returning to Rome after excommunicating Count Raymond VI of Toulouse, who, in his view, was too lenient with the Cathars.[13] Pope Innocent III then abandoned the option of sending Catholic missionaries and jurists, declared Pierre de Castelnau a martyr and launched the Albigensian Crusade which all but ended Catharism.[13][14]"

B) Wrong again, please read even the god damn Wikipedia page at least before spouting such stupidities; I mean, I'm not surprised you believe it given you unironically used the "God will know his own" quote but still, it's not helping your credibility.

That exact wiki confirms what I'm saying, thank you very much. So does the new one I'm linking, as well.

"But in spite of the wholesale massacre of Cathars during the war, Catharism was not yet extinguished and Catholic forces would continue to pursue Cathars.[60]"

C) >when he thinks the Inquisition were fucking death squads rather than itinerant preachers from the begging orders

For someone to talk such a big talk about me "not reading" the wikis, you sure really prove you're not doing such.

"The Inquisition was established in 1233 to uproot the remaining Cathars.[72] Operating in the south at Toulouse, Albi, Carcassonne and other towns during the whole of the 13th century, and a great part of the 14th, it succeeded in crushing Catharism as a popular movement and driving its remaining adherents underground.[72] Cathars who refused to recant were hanged, or burnt at the stake.[73]"

D) Yeah. It includes doing that by murdering them. Which didn't happen. Which you would know if you actually read history books about the Croisade des Albigeois.

Long story short, you're spouting shit about a subject you've no knowledge of, just as usual.

>The murders of the Cathars didn't happen

Top fucking kek. Must be fun being a genocide denier, huh?

I really am done here this time, after this one.

[Greater Loegria]

Ah the good old cathars. Only thing to say is: Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Economic positions are not relevant to awesome facial hair.

Explain why Hitler had a terrible mustache.

Just coincidence, I guess.

[Thanatttynia]

Imperialism and communism (or any form of leftism) aren't incompatible... it's their economic model which makes them non-leftist, as well as their complete non-interest in equality, democracy etc.

Eeeeeeeeeh, I'd argue it is. Imperialism implies the use of force to subjugate a group of people to the whims of the imperialist. Very much incompatible with the left's ideals of bringing up the proletariat. But yes, their capitalist economy, suppression of labor unions, subjugation of ethnic minorities and complete lack of any freedom of the press and the ballot also very much disqualifies them from being communist.

I suppose it depends on the definition used; if you subscribe to the idea that it's a form of capitalism then ofc it's incompatible with leftism. If you take a broader (and imo more accurate) view, one group of people exploiting another group of people fits just fine with any form of leftism. The USSR was a socialist state and certainly engaged in imperialism, as did China when it was a socialist state.

Imperialism developed under capitalism, yes, (much like communism or a whole host of ideologies) but it's more a historical accident that the end of explicit imperialism came about at the same time as socialism was gaining converts. Imperialism shouldn't be used in conjunction with leftism, but I think it can be (and has.)

[Aellex]

The Crusade was also called to eradicate Catharism. Let's not skirt around Pope Innocent III's intentions here.

"From the beginning of his reign, Pope Innocent III attempted to end Catharism by sending missionaries and by persuading the local authorities to act against them. In 1208, Innocent's papal legate Pierre de Castelnau was murdered while returning to Rome after excommunicating Count Raymond VI of Toulouse, who, in his view, was too lenient with the Cathars.[13] Pope Innocent III then abandoned the option of sending Catholic missionaries and jurists, declared Pierre de Castelnau a martyr and launched the Albigensian Crusade which all but ended Catharism.[13][14]"

TIL that missionary work is eradication, lmao

That exact wiki confirms what I'm saying, thank you very much. So does the new one I'm linking, as well.

"But in spite of the wholesale massacre of Cathars during the war, Catharism was not yet extinguished and Catholic forces would continue to pursue Cathars.[60]"

Except that random quoting of Wikipedia article doesn't support that Cathars were systematically murdered and neither do the source given neither.
In the mean time, actual historians disagree with those lies of your that there was a constant hunting and "cleansing" of cathar, I advise you to read "l'Épopée Cathare", a book that unlike that sham one of yours that is the only one to claim that the Croisade des Albigeois was a Genocide, actually is considered a reference by the academia, being distinguished by the Académie for its quality.
Unsurprisingly, it was, unlike your one and only source, wrote by someone who spoke the languages involved, went in the South of France, visited the archives and actually lived there for almost a decade as he wrote it.
So big fail from you, yet again.

For someone to talk such a big talk about me "not reading" the wikis, you sure really prove you're not doing such.

"The Inquisition was established in 1233 to uproot the remaining Cathars.[72] Operating in the south at Toulouse, Albi, Carcassonne and other towns during the whole of the 13th century, and a great part of the 14th, it succeeded in crushing Catharism as a popular movement and driving its remaining adherents underground.[72] Cathars who refused to recant were hanged, or burnt at the stake.[73]"

And again that's a retarded view that doesn't take into account the fact that most of the Church's work was missionary one.

>The murders of the Cathars didn't happen

Top fucking kek. Must be fun being a genocide denier, huh?

I really am done here this time, after this one.

>"genocide includes the partial or wholesale destruction of religious groups."
>"Yes, [the destruction of religious] by murder which didn't happen"
>"BUT CATHARS DID GET MURDERED!!!!!111!!11"

Wow, there is really no low you won't step to in your attempts to gaslight.
Pathetic.

Sure cathars were murdered, and that for a lot of reasons. In battle, in pillage, in sieges. They weren't ethnic cleansed however and thus weren't genocided.

Unlike you who's been denying the crimes of genociders and making excuses for them repeatedly like with the Kurds and Haitians, I'm merely correcting your historical illiteracy when you're calling a simple medieval war à genocide.
So do tell me, how does it feels to try and give excuses to genocidal scums just because of your politics?

[Pasong Tirad]

Explain why Hitler had a terrible mustache.

Just coincidence, I guess.

[The Galactic Liberal Democracy]

Just coincidence, I guess.

Weird flex but ok.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Just coincidence, I guess.

It works for both religious and sexual reasons, in Jewish mysticism, the beard is a reservoir for the male energy, and shaving it is believed by some kabbalah rabbis to reduce a man's sexual energy.