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LWDT 7: The Earth and Heavens Tremble.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Which Book on Leftist Ideology is Your Preferred Book?

The Communist Manifesto (Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels)
17
17%
The Conquest of Bread (Peter Kropotkin)
20
20%
Das Kapital (Karl Marx)
17
17%
What is Property? (Pierre-Joseph Proudhon)
2
2%
Guerilla Warfare (Che Guevara)
6
6%
Mutual Aid (Peter Kropotkin)
2
2%
Profit Over People (Noam Chomsky)
3
3%
The Ego and Its Own (Max Stirner)
7
7%
Debt: The First 5,000 Years (David Graeber)
3
3%
Other (Please Explain)
21
21%
 
Total votes : 98

User avatar
LiberNovusAmericae
Senator
 
Posts: 3540
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:38 am

Grenartia wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Russia's culture is authoritarian. Democracy and Liberty will not work there.


Sounds like ethnic bigotry to me. Why do Russians not deserve democracy and liberty? What fucking bullshit about their culture allegedly proves they're unfit to enjoy the fruits of democracy and liberty like Americans? That's the biggest fucking copout to justify tyranny that I've ever heard.


You deliberately put words into my mouth. I did not justify tyranny, nor did I say that Russians don't "deserve" liberty. Their current culture is very Authoritarian. I mean, the dictator Putin is overwhelmingly popular, and many Russians have a positive view of Joseph Stalin. Democracy probably is not going to rise from that, so don't get triggered.
Supports: Liberty, Capitalism, Libertarianism, Low Taxes, Free Speech, Civic Nationalism, Representative Republics, Secularism, Atheism

Against: Crony Capitalism, Fascism, Nazism, Antifa, Ethnic Nationalism, alt-right, Communism, Socialism, Religion, Totalitarianism, Authoritarianism, mass migration
Fascists on Gameside have declared me an Enemy of the State! lol.

User avatar
The Xenopolis Confederation
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6546
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:57 am

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Grenartia wrote:
Sounds like ethnic bigotry to me. Why do Russians not deserve democracy and liberty? What fucking bullshit about their culture allegedly proves they're unfit to enjoy the fruits of democracy and liberty like Americans? That's the biggest fucking copout to justify tyranny that I've ever heard.


You deliberately put words into my mouth. I did not justify tyranny, nor did I say that Russians don't "deserve" liberty. Their current culture is very Authoritarian. I mean, the dictator Putin is overwhelmingly popular, and many Russians have a positive view of Joseph Stalin. Democracy probably is not going to rise from that, so don't get triggered.

This is why we need more Russian libtards like NFKRZ tbh.
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Psychedelic Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0
Social: -8
NS Stats should be taken with a pinch of salt, but they're not too far off.
I'm an 18 year old Australian male* who tries to think about things but fails, as we all do. I'll regret this in 2 years tops.

*I'm sort of questioning my gender, thinking I might be gender dysphoric, so if you want, I would prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

User avatar
Roosevetania
Diplomat
 
Posts: 540
Founded: Jan 08, 2016
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Roosevetania » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:04 am

Grenartia wrote:
Hanafuridake wrote:
I'm a monarchist and religious conservative.

What makes you think I care about left unity?


If "left unity" means selling out to the tankies like "right unity" did with right-libs to the fascists, I want no fucking part of it.

The tankies will purge us libertarians as soon as we're not convenient to them anymore. Left unity would be very difficult.
Cis White Male, Anarcho-Communist, Anti-Fascist, American Deep South
Pro: Communism, Anarchism, Antifa, Environment, LGBT+/Women's/POC Liberation, Gun Rights, Immigration, Peace (when possible), Education, Revolution
Anti: Capitalism, the State, Fascism, the Right, Most Major Political Parties, Bigotry (except against fashies), Unnecessary War, Conscription, Death Penalty, Nationalism, Israel

Alexander Norberg, Deputy Leader of the National People's Party in the NS Parliament - For Family and Freedom
Head Admin of the NS Parliament

User avatar
LiberNovusAmericae
Senator
 
Posts: 3540
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:08 am

Roosevetania wrote:
Grenartia wrote:
If "left unity" means selling out to the tankies like "right unity" did with right-libs to the fascists, I want no fucking part of it.

The tankies will purge us libertarians as soon as we're not convenient to them anymore. Left unity would be very difficult.

Tankies would purge anyone, even some of themselves.
Supports: Liberty, Capitalism, Libertarianism, Low Taxes, Free Speech, Civic Nationalism, Representative Republics, Secularism, Atheism

Against: Crony Capitalism, Fascism, Nazism, Antifa, Ethnic Nationalism, alt-right, Communism, Socialism, Religion, Totalitarianism, Authoritarianism, mass migration
Fascists on Gameside have declared me an Enemy of the State! lol.

User avatar
Kowani
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9113
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:43 am

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Kowani wrote:Yeah, that doesn’t follow.

How so? If you can meaningfully vote, then you can change the system, albeit gradually, without revolution.

That you can vote is no guarantee that you can actually change the system.
Narcissistic (Hedonistic) Nihilist. Yes, I am edgy. I know.
Dorgival R. Seč of the NS Parliament!
Atheist and still proud of it. Technophile to the extreme.
Post-Capitalist, Post-Nationalist. Go beyond.
Oh, and a Pragmatist. Somehow.
Rights are functionally just privileges society has deemed important.
Neanderthaland wrote:
Christian Confederation wrote:Contraception can't fail if you don't have sex in term no unwanted pregnancy.

Your entire religion is based on the idea that this isn't true.

User avatar
The South Falls
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11639
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The South Falls » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:50 am

Roosevetania wrote:
Grenartia wrote:
If "left unity" means selling out to the tankies like "right unity" did with right-libs to the fascists, I want no fucking part of it.

The tankies will purge us libertarians as soon as we're not convenient to them anymore. Left unity would be very difficult.

The left seems broader than the right when it comes to politics. Left-unity will be incredibly hard to garner between all the votes.
This is an MT nation that reflects some of my beliefs, trade deals and debate always welcome! Call me TeaSF. A level 8, according to This Index.


Political Compass Results:

Economic: -6.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.28
I make dumb jokes. I'm really serious about that.

User avatar
Bojikami
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11181
Founded: Jul 24, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Bojikami » Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:02 am

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Kowani wrote:Yeah, that doesn’t follow.

How so? If you can meaningfully vote, then you can change the system, albeit gradually, without revolution.

Gradual changes don't mean shit when we're facing down an ecological apocalypse. Not to mention the fact that the individuals vote really doesn't mean anything at all.
Be gay, do crime.
Russian in America, Pansexual Doomer, Vegan, Godless Communist
Economic Left/Right: -10.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.33
Pandeeria wrote:Revolt is by degrees. Saying I don't like ice cream is revolutionary, but is of the most petty kind of revolutionary. It's like stating an unpopular opinion.

User avatar
Rostavykhan
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1423
Founded: Sep 30, 2017
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Rostavykhan » Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:35 am

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Grenartia wrote:
Sounds like ethnic bigotry to me. Why do Russians not deserve democracy and liberty? What fucking bullshit about their culture allegedly proves they're unfit to enjoy the fruits of democracy and liberty like Americans? That's the biggest fucking copout to justify tyranny that I've ever heard.


You deliberately put words into my mouth. I did not justify tyranny, nor did I say that Russians don't "deserve" liberty. Their current culture is very Authoritarian. I mean, the dictator Putin is overwhelmingly popular, and many Russians have a positive view of Joseph Stalin. Democracy probably is not going to rise from that, so don't get triggered.


Yeah, I don't see how "Russians are more authoritarian" is bigoted or an argument for why they can't have Democracy ever.

I'd just assumed that one of the main reasons Russians tend to be more authoritarian and supportive of figures like Putin and Stalin is that they're generally a more collective-minded people, who tend to be more patriotic and nationalistic than Americans or other Westerners. It tends to be more "How can Russia benefit from something and become stronger" rather than "How can all peoples and groups in Russia benefit and pursue their own self-interests" generally, as I understand it.

That, and Russians tend to be fairly conservative and supportive of authority, even among the left there.

I may be mistaken, of course. I don't live in Russia; I'm interested in learning about it because I'd like to visit or live there if I ever had the chance, but at the moment I'm just trying to learn what I can about the people and their mindset.
Last edited by Rostavykhan on Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Authoritarian Socialist
【PLUS ULTRA】
Chaotic Neutral
I also go by Torsiedelle (or 'Tori')

User avatar
Rostavykhan
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1423
Founded: Sep 30, 2017
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Rostavykhan » Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:41 am

Proctopeo wrote:
Bojikami wrote:I was born and lived there for sometime. I live in the United States now. There isn't all that much of a difference.

Well that's just plain bullshit. Almost certainly ideologically driven bullshit too.


I mean, they are different, just in the sense that one has a bunch of different parties, with one remaining in power in a system riddled with corruption, while the other has only two real options to vote for, remaining in power indefinitely in a system riddled with corruption and corporate lobbying.
Authoritarian Socialist
【PLUS ULTRA】
Chaotic Neutral
I also go by Torsiedelle (or 'Tori')

User avatar
Liriena
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 56263
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:34 pm

be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
if you passed biology and know
gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

I disown most of my previous posts

User avatar
The Xenopolis Confederation
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6546
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:42 pm

Bojikami wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:How so? If you can meaningfully vote, then you can change the system, albeit gradually, without revolution.

Gradual changes don't mean shit when we're facing down an ecological apocalypse. Not to mention the fact that the individuals vote really doesn't mean anything at all.

Individuals don't, but if Socialism is popular enough, and we live in a true democracy, I don't see why it wouldn't eventually be voted in.
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Psychedelic Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0
Social: -8
NS Stats should be taken with a pinch of salt, but they're not too far off.
I'm an 18 year old Australian male* who tries to think about things but fails, as we all do. I'll regret this in 2 years tops.

*I'm sort of questioning my gender, thinking I might be gender dysphoric, so if you want, I would prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

User avatar
Bojikami
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11181
Founded: Jul 24, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Bojikami » Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:23 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Bojikami wrote:Gradual changes don't mean shit when we're facing down an ecological apocalypse. Not to mention the fact that the individuals vote really doesn't mean anything at all.

Individuals don't, but if Socialism is popular enough, and we live in a true democracy, I don't see why it wouldn't eventually be voted in.

Because before socialism can gain the necessary momentum to overtake the state apparatus, Fascism happens. The military will step in. Do you really think the billionaires are going to just let themselves be voted out of power?
Be gay, do crime.
Russian in America, Pansexual Doomer, Vegan, Godless Communist
Economic Left/Right: -10.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.33
Pandeeria wrote:Revolt is by degrees. Saying I don't like ice cream is revolutionary, but is of the most petty kind of revolutionary. It's like stating an unpopular opinion.

User avatar
Grenartia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 40489
Founded: Feb 14, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Grenartia » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:32 pm

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Grenartia wrote:
Sounds like ethnic bigotry to me. Why do Russians not deserve democracy and liberty? What fucking bullshit about their culture allegedly proves they're unfit to enjoy the fruits of democracy and liberty like Americans? That's the biggest fucking copout to justify tyranny that I've ever heard.


You deliberately put words into my mouth. I did not justify tyranny, nor did I say that Russians don't "deserve" liberty. Their current culture is very Authoritarian. I mean, the dictator Putin is overwhelmingly popular, and many Russians have a positive view of Joseph Stalin. Democracy probably is not going to rise from that, so don't get triggered.


Democracy can, does, and has arisen from authoritarian cultures. Otherwise, it would not exist as a concept.

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Roosevetania wrote:The tankies will purge us libertarians as soon as we're not convenient to them anymore. Left unity would be very difficult.

Tankies would purge anyone, even some of themselves.


The quickest way to save yourself from the tankie firing squads is to convince the members of each squad that the others are revisionists. That's why its important to know your tankies. Accuse Stalinists of being Trots, etc.

The South Falls wrote:
Roosevetania wrote:The tankies will purge us libertarians as soon as we're not convenient to them anymore. Left unity would be very difficult.

The left seems broader than the right when it comes to politics. Left-unity will be incredibly hard to garner between all the votes.


Judicious shifting of the Overton Window should help with that.
Last edited by Grenartia on Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Impeach Humanity, Legalize Death Stars, Life is TheftWis/Gren 2016 Something all cisgender allies should start doing. I wear teal, blue & pink for Swith. ⚧Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed biology and know gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧
"Don't take life so serious. It isn't permanent."-Dyakovo
I'm a pansexual Androgyne. Also a Christian.
Please use they/them/their when referencing me, as I do NOT appreciate the other pronouns.
Textbook definition of irony
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The Xenopolis Confederation
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6546
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:34 pm

Kowani wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:How so? If you can meaningfully vote, then you can change the system, albeit gradually, without revolution.

That you can vote is no guarantee that you can actually change the system.

Hence why I said meaningfully vote.
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Psychedelic Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0
Social: -8
NS Stats should be taken with a pinch of salt, but they're not too far off.
I'm an 18 year old Australian male* who tries to think about things but fails, as we all do. I'll regret this in 2 years tops.

*I'm sort of questioning my gender, thinking I might be gender dysphoric, so if you want, I would prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

User avatar
The Xenopolis Confederation
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6546
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:35 pm

Bojikami wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Individuals don't, but if Socialism is popular enough, and we live in a true democracy, I don't see why it wouldn't eventually be voted in.

Because before socialism can gain the necessary momentum to overtake the state apparatus, Fascism happens. The military will step in. Do you really think the billionaires are going to just let themselves be voted out of power?

How will Fascism happen? Fascism is even more unpopular than Socialism. Why would the military step in? This is first world liberal democracy, not ancient China.
Last edited by The Xenopolis Confederation on Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Psychedelic Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0
Social: -8
NS Stats should be taken with a pinch of salt, but they're not too far off.
I'm an 18 year old Australian male* who tries to think about things but fails, as we all do. I'll regret this in 2 years tops.

*I'm sort of questioning my gender, thinking I might be gender dysphoric, so if you want, I would prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

User avatar
Grenartia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 40489
Founded: Feb 14, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Grenartia » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:40 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Bojikami wrote:Because before socialism can gain the necessary momentum to overtake the state apparatus, Fascism happens. The military will step in. Do you really think the billionaires are going to just let themselves be voted out of power?

How will Fascism happen? Fascism is even more unpopular than Socialism. Why would the military step in? This is first world liberal democracy, not ancient China.


The idea is that the elites only allow liberal democracy as long as it isn't a serious threat to their power (which the military protects and serves the interests of), and that fascism is their last-ditch attempt to preserve said power, at the expense of liberal democracy.
Impeach Humanity, Legalize Death Stars, Life is TheftWis/Gren 2016 Something all cisgender allies should start doing. I wear teal, blue & pink for Swith. ⚧Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed biology and know gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧
"Don't take life so serious. It isn't permanent."-Dyakovo
I'm a pansexual Androgyne. Also a Christian.
Please use they/them/their when referencing me, as I do NOT appreciate the other pronouns.
Textbook definition of irony
Quotes of awesomeness

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Bojikami
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11181
Founded: Jul 24, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Bojikami » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:49 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Bojikami wrote:Because before socialism can gain the necessary momentum to overtake the state apparatus, Fascism happens. The military will step in. Do you really think the billionaires are going to just let themselves be voted out of power?

How will Fascism happen? Fascism is even more unpopular than Socialism. Why would the military step in? This is first world liberal democracy, not ancient China.

Weimar Germany was a first world liberal democracy. Italy, while a parliamentary monarchy, had the trappings of a liberal democracy. And as in these cases, when the left grew to threaten the entrenched elites, fascism was brought in to destroy the power of the working class.

Fascism of the modern day will not call itself fascism, overtly. In addition, when it comes down to it, the popularity of it doesn't mean shit to the rich. They'll readily drop the pretenses of liberal democracy as soon as it becomes nonviable for them. All the while we've been caught up in channeling our energy into incremental electoral change, they'll be polishing their guns, readying the propaganda, and getting their lists together.
Be gay, do crime.
Russian in America, Pansexual Doomer, Vegan, Godless Communist
Economic Left/Right: -10.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.33
Pandeeria wrote:Revolt is by degrees. Saying I don't like ice cream is revolutionary, but is of the most petty kind of revolutionary. It's like stating an unpopular opinion.

User avatar
Pasong Tirad
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8848
Founded: May 31, 2007
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Pasong Tirad » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:58 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Bojikami wrote:Because before socialism can gain the necessary momentum to overtake the state apparatus, Fascism happens. The military will step in. Do you really think the billionaires are going to just let themselves be voted out of power?

How will Fascism happen? Fascism is even more unpopular than Socialism. Why would the military step in? This is first world liberal democracy, not ancient China.

Your heart's in the right place, but no business class would ever willingly hand over the means of production. Not through any kind of meaningful vote or law. The best liberal democracies can do is make lives a bit better for the working class here and there, and I'm personally still holding out hope that democratic socialism can actually vote to, at the very least, limit the power and influence of the rich. But, realistically, no. No kind of vote is ever going to even be held that has an option for the elites to hand over the means of production.
Last edited by Pasong Tirad on Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"If there is no friendship with them [the poor] and no sharing of the life of the poor, then there is no authentic commitment to liberation, because love exists only among equals."
- Gustavo Gutiérrez
[b]Filipino||Catholic Liberationist||Leftist||He/Him||Bisexual||Trans Rights
Rojava||Free Taiwan||Assyria||Zapatistas

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Jack Thomas Lang
Diplomat
 
Posts: 676
Founded: Apr 18, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Jack Thomas Lang » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:59 pm

I'm skeptical that the "rich" will support fascism as we know it, even as a last-ditch attempt against violent revolution, mainly because I'm not convinced that the contemporary "rich" share similar values to conservative and reactionary industrialists that backed Mussolini, Hitler and Franco. I wish the political affiliations of the "rich" could be studied, because I think that more of them are somewhat more liberal and globalist than the business class that backed fascism in the past.
Catholic Distributist
Three Acres and a Cow

"In the race of life, always back self-interest — at least you know it's trying."
Rerum Novarum and Quadragesimo Anno

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Grenartia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 40489
Founded: Feb 14, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Grenartia » Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:07 am

Jack Thomas Lang wrote:I'm skeptical that the "rich" will support fascism as we know it, even as a last-ditch attempt against violent revolution, mainly because I'm not convinced that the contemporary "rich" share similar values to conservative and reactionary industrialists that backed Mussolini, Hitler and Franco. I wish the political affiliations of the "rich" could be studied, because I think that more of them are somewhat more liberal and globalist than the business class that backed fascism in the past.


The Koch brothers, and pretty much every millionaire and billionaire that backs Trump and Putin beg to differ.
Impeach Humanity, Legalize Death Stars, Life is TheftWis/Gren 2016 Something all cisgender allies should start doing. I wear teal, blue & pink for Swith. ⚧Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed biology and know gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧
"Don't take life so serious. It isn't permanent."-Dyakovo
I'm a pansexual Androgyne. Also a Christian.
Please use they/them/their when referencing me, as I do NOT appreciate the other pronouns.
Textbook definition of irony
Quotes of awesomeness

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Dumb Ideologies
Post Czar
 
Posts: 39949
Founded: Sep 30, 2007
Mother Knows Best State

Postby Dumb Ideologies » Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:28 am

Probably today the elites are more likely to go for a Pinochet-type free market character than a Hitler-type who'll more directly interfere with and steer their production to meet the needs of total war.
Last edited by Dumb Ideologies on Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Jack Thomas Lang
Diplomat
 
Posts: 676
Founded: Apr 18, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Jack Thomas Lang » Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:48 am

Grenartia wrote:The Koch brothers, and pretty much every millionaire and billionaire that backs Trump and Putin beg to differ.

Several examples out of many. That's the issue, there isn't any study of political affiliations of the "rich". We can all agree that they're against reforms and revolution that threaten their wealth and power, but I don't think that the collective "rich" are avowed conservatives who'll put the army on top as soon as a general strike starts. At least, not anymore.
Catholic Distributist
Three Acres and a Cow

"In the race of life, always back self-interest — at least you know it's trying."
Rerum Novarum and Quadragesimo Anno

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Pasong Tirad
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8848
Founded: May 31, 2007
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Pasong Tirad » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:07 am

Jack Thomas Lang wrote:
Grenartia wrote:The Koch brothers, and pretty much every millionaire and billionaire that backs Trump and Putin beg to differ.

Several examples out of many. That's the issue, there isn't any study of political affiliations of the "rich". We can all agree that they're against reforms and revolution that threaten their wealth and power, but I don't think that the collective "rich" are avowed conservatives who'll put the army on top as soon as a general strike starts. At least, not anymore.

Umberto Eco agrees: “It would be so much easier, for us, if there appeared on the world scene somebody saying, "I want to reopen Auschwitz, I want the Black Shirts to parade again in the Italian squares." Life is not that simple.” Ur-Fascism, June 22, 1995.

Not every fascist is going to look like a blackshirt. Which is why it's important for us to be knowledgeable about the identifying characteristics that more often than not are similar among a lot of fascists.
Last edited by Pasong Tirad on Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
"If there is no friendship with them [the poor] and no sharing of the life of the poor, then there is no authentic commitment to liberation, because love exists only among equals."
- Gustavo Gutiérrez
[b]Filipino||Catholic Liberationist||Leftist||He/Him||Bisexual||Trans Rights
Rojava||Free Taiwan||Assyria||Zapatistas

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Jack Thomas Lang
Diplomat
 
Posts: 676
Founded: Apr 18, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Jack Thomas Lang » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:14 am

Pasong Tirad wrote:Umberto Eco agrees: “It would be so much easier, for us, if there appeared on the world scene somebody saying, "I want to reopen Auschwitz, I want the Black Shirts to parade again in the Italian squares." Life is not that simple.” Ur-Fascism, June 22, 1995.

Not every fascist is going to look like a blackshirt. Which is why it's important for us to be knowledgeable about the identifying characteristics that more often than not are similar among a lot of fascists.

I don't think they'll be fascists at all, is what I'm saying. What are the identifying characteristics in the first place? For one, I don't see the contemporary "rich" supporting ultra-nationalism, expansionism (at least not in a traditional sense) and complete state control over society characteristic of fascist states.
Last edited by Jack Thomas Lang on Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Nakena
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nakena » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:17 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Probably today the elites are more likely to go for a Pinochet-type free market character than a Hitler-type who'll more directly interfere with and steer their production to meet the needs of total war.


The elites today have drunk their own kool-aid and will stick with "liberal democracy" until the end.

Jack Thomas Lang wrote:I don't think they'll be fascists at all, is what I'm saying. What are the identifying characteristics in the first place? For one, I don't see the contemporary "rich" supporting ultra-nationalism, expansionism (at least not in a traditional sense) and complete state control over society characteristic of fascist states.


Classical fascism is not relevant anywhere but some obscure reddit and facebook groups.
Last edited by Nakena on Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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