NATION

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LWDT 7: The Earth and Heavens Tremble.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Which Book on Leftist Ideology is Your Preferred Book?

The Communist Manifesto (Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels)
23
18%
The Conquest of Bread (Peter Kropotkin)
24
19%
Das Kapital (Karl Marx)
21
16%
What is Property? (Pierre-Joseph Proudhon)
2
2%
Guerilla Warfare (Che Guevara)
8
6%
Mutual Aid (Peter Kropotkin)
2
2%
Profit Over People (Noam Chomsky)
4
3%
The Ego and Its Own (Max Stirner)
8
6%
Debt: The First 5,000 Years (David Graeber)
5
4%
Other (Please Explain)
32
25%
 
Total votes : 129

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Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 51493
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Thu May 23, 2019 9:06 am

Liriena wrote:So it seems that the example we've got of "SJWs infiltrating and destroying my hobbies" is actually fellow anime fans not liking the things you do for reasons you disagree with.


They're not anime fans Lir. They're activists hired by media publications to generate clickbait.
New Sig, who dis?
Patriarchy theory is a valid academic theory, not incel tier psychological abuse which maps on to any situation a woman doesn't like and enables them to rationalize a hostility to men, we swear.
https://i.redd.it/zj1a11ooxwb31.jpg

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Liriena
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Posts: 56587
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Thu May 23, 2019 9:06 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Liriena wrote:I get it. You disagreed with his review and you think he didn't give the show a fair shake. Congrats, you discovered subjectivity. That still doesn't answer my original question. Do you think this person is "no true anime fan" but actually a "SJW" infiltrator from the outside maliciously trying to tear down an anime you like?


His review was 90% anti-male sexist bullshit, and 10% not actually a professional review, just an "It's bad" and "The character is boring". That's not me disagreeing because he didn't give the show a fair shake, it's me disagreeing because he didn't actually write a review. If I published Das Kapital and tagged on a page at the end saying "And even if you ignore all that, this movie with bankers in it is bad. The characters are dumb and I don't like them.".

That's not a review. Do you get that? Why are you deliberately ignoring that?

I get that you are so immensely triggered by a small handful of mediocre internet reviews taking issue with false rape accusations against a fictional male character that you interpret them as an example of SJW infiltrators rather than just... y'know... some fellow fans having views and reviewing styles you personally find abhorrent.

Ostroeuropa wrote:Pretty much yes, they are infiltrators. They're hired for clickbait, and this toxic nonsense generates clicks.

Have you got the receipts? Can you actually prove that the reviews don't actually like anime in general? That they are "outsiders" coming to poison your hobby? Do you genuinely believe that one cannot be both a "SJW" and an anime fan?

What do you even think a SJW is? Because it's beginning to look like "SJW" is just a manipulative rhetorical tool rather than an actual, honestly defined category of person. They seem to exclusively exist in your writing as a shorthand for "foreign other that we must fear and hate". It's actually beginning to give me some serious fashy vibes, to be honest. You might as well cry "cultural bolshevism" and start talking about a "stab in the back".
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


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Liriena
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 56587
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Thu May 23, 2019 9:07 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Liriena wrote:So it seems that the example we've got of "SJWs infiltrating and destroying my hobbies" is actually fellow anime fans not liking the things you do for reasons you disagree with.


They're not anime fans Lir. They're activists hired by media publications to generate clickbait.

[citation needed], Sen. McCarthy.
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
if you passed biology and know
gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

I disown most of my previous posts

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Cappuccina
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1516
Founded: Jun 05, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Cappuccina » Thu May 23, 2019 9:08 am

Cekoviu wrote:
Liriena wrote:Nah, it's good and necessary. If anime gets to be treated like a form of art, that means it, and its fans, owe it to themselves to take a meaningful look into its politics.

I can't figure out a rational reason to disagree with you, but I really want to nonetheless. :/

Does everything really need to be politicized though? Can't people have something that they enjoy that isn't made into debate?
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##################
Economic Left/Right: -5.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.46

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Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 51493
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Thu May 23, 2019 9:10 am

Lir you're basically asking me if a true lover of big brother can like Eurasias alliance with Oceania.

I'm telling you no, they can't.

It's a totalizing ideology. They don't like anime, because they have bought in to a totalitarian worldview. They don't like anything anymore, except the ideology. That is literally the point and goal of totalitarianism. They like anime only in as far as it facilitates their worldview being imposed.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Thu May 23, 2019 9:17 am, edited 3 times in total.
New Sig, who dis?
Patriarchy theory is a valid academic theory, not incel tier psychological abuse which maps on to any situation a woman doesn't like and enables them to rationalize a hostility to men, we swear.
https://i.redd.it/zj1a11ooxwb31.jpg

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Liriena
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 56587
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Thu May 23, 2019 9:11 am

Cappuccina wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:I can't figure out a rational reason to disagree with you, but I really want to nonetheless. :/

Does everything really need to be politicized though? Can't people have something that they enjoy that isn't made into debate?

Who says you can't enjoy something and also be open to think about it on a deeper level, including its politics?

I love The Lord of the Rings, I enjoy watching the movies and reading Tolkien's work, and now and then I also think about Tolkien's politics and the politics of Middle Earth.

And furthermore, if other people engaging in a debate about stuff you like ruins your enjoyment, that's kind of your problem. The things you enjoy were already political long before people started to debate them, because art is always political.
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
if you passed biology and know
gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

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Cekoviu
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10081
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cekoviu » Thu May 23, 2019 9:11 am

Cappuccina wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:I can't figure out a rational reason to disagree with you, but I really want to nonetheless. :/

Does everything really need to be politicized though? Can't people have something that they enjoy that isn't made into debate?

Everything is, by nature, political.
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\end{center}
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Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 51493
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Thu May 23, 2019 9:13 am

Liriena wrote:
Cappuccina wrote:Does everything really need to be politicized though? Can't people have something that they enjoy that isn't made into debate?

Who says you can't enjoy something and also be open to think about it on a deeper level, including its politics?

I love The Lord of the Rings, I enjoy watching the movies and reading Tolkien's work, and now and then I also think about Tolkien's politics and the politics of Middle Earth.

And furthermore, if other people engaging in a debate about stuff you like ruins your enjoyment, that's kind of your problem. The things you enjoy were already political long before people started to debate them, because art is always political.


We have seen how this movement moves to censor things they don't like eventually.
New Sig, who dis?
Patriarchy theory is a valid academic theory, not incel tier psychological abuse which maps on to any situation a woman doesn't like and enables them to rationalize a hostility to men, we swear.
https://i.redd.it/zj1a11ooxwb31.jpg

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Liriena
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 56587
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Thu May 23, 2019 9:17 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Liriena wrote:I get that you are so immensely triggered by a small handful of mediocre internet reviews taking issue with false rape accusations against a fictional male character that you interpret them as an example of SJW infiltrators rather than just... y'know... some fellow fans having views and reviewing styles you personally find abhorrent.


Have you got the receipts? Can you actually prove that the reviews don't actually like anime in general? That they are "outsiders" coming to poison your hobby? Do you genuinely believe that one cannot be both a "SJW" and an anime fan?

What do you even think a SJW is? Because it's beginning to look like "SJW" is just a manipulative rhetorical tool rather than an actual, honestly defined category of person. They seem to exclusively exist in your writing as a shorthand for "foreign other that we must fear and hate". It's actually beginning to give me some serious fashy vibes, to be honest. You might as well cry "cultural bolshevism" and start talking about a "stab in the back".


And again you come back to ignoring wider context. This is not an isolated incident, but a growing problem in our society.

If your illustrative example fails to illustrate the wider context you want to whine about, then your wider context may well be a fabrication of yours.

Ostroeuropa wrote:I think it's like joining a cult that makes you an addict to a particular repetitive behavior at the expense of everything else. An SJW is not only not an anime fan, they are a fan of nothing but their ideology. Same as a hardcore drug addict eventually gets. They'll steal from their friends, their family, and so on, to fuel the habit. The SJW is obsessed with applying a totalizing worldview and demonizing everything that falls outside of it. They are not anime fans, because they are not fans of anything anymore except the cult. That is what totalitarian ideology aspires to achieve, and in their case, does.

Stupid analogies asides... got an actual source for all that dollar-store psychopathologizing of "the SJW"? Also, bold of you to talk about how "the SJW is obsessed with applying a totalizing worldview and demonizing everything that falls outside of it" while simultaneously trying to argue that it's impossible to be critical of a plot element in an anime you liked and be an anime fan, and that if you are critical then you are actually a "SJW", a malicious totalitarian cult member/drug addict incapable of liking the same stuff you do who only exists to attack you and the things you love. That's definitely not a totalizing worldview and demonization that you're putting out there.
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
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gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

I disown most of my previous posts

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Liriena
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 56587
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Thu May 23, 2019 9:18 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Liriena wrote:Who says you can't enjoy something and also be open to think about it on a deeper level, including its politics?

I love The Lord of the Rings, I enjoy watching the movies and reading Tolkien's work, and now and then I also think about Tolkien's politics and the politics of Middle Earth.

And furthermore, if other people engaging in a debate about stuff you like ruins your enjoyment, that's kind of your problem. The things you enjoy were already political long before people started to debate them, because art is always political.


We have seen how this movement moves to censor things they don't like eventually.

Such as?
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
if you passed biology and know
gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

I disown most of my previous posts

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Cappuccina
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Posts: 1516
Founded: Jun 05, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Cappuccina » Thu May 23, 2019 9:18 am

Cekoviu wrote:
Cappuccina wrote:Does everything really need to be politicized though? Can't people have something that they enjoy that isn't made into debate?

Everything is, by nature, political.

It is if people make it political.
Obligatory Pronouns so you don't oppress me with misgendering: her/she....yay
##################
Economic Left/Right: -5.25
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The Xenopolis Confederation
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7390
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Thu May 23, 2019 9:19 am

Cekoviu wrote:
Cappuccina wrote:Does everything really need to be politicized though? Can't people have something that they enjoy that isn't made into debate?

Everything is, by nature, political.

Some things are more political than others. Some things don't need to be politicized more than they are political.
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Psychedelic Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0.5
Social: -8
I'm an 18 year old Australian who tries to think about things but fails, as we all do. I'll regret this in 2 years tops.

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Liriena
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 56587
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Thu May 23, 2019 9:21 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:Lir you're basically asking me if a true lover of big brother can like Eurasias alliance with Oceania.

I'm telling you no, they can't.

It's a totalizing ideology. They don't like anime, because they have bought in to a totalitarian worldview. They don't like anything anymore, except the ideology. That is literally the point and goal of totalitarianism. They like anime only in as far as it facilitates their worldview being imposed.

One day you're gonna make a good analogy... but today ain't it.

Also, still waiting on receipts on this "they" you keep psychopathologizing from your armchair.

You claim that "they don't like anything anymore" and you still think you're talking about real human beings?
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
if you passed biology and know
gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

I disown most of my previous posts

User avatar
Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 51493
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Thu May 23, 2019 9:21 am

Liriena wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
And again you come back to ignoring wider context. This is not an isolated incident, but a growing problem in our society.

If your illustrative example fails to illustrate the wider context you want to whine about, then your wider context may well be a fabrication of yours.

Ostroeuropa wrote:I think it's like joining a cult that makes you an addict to a particular repetitive behavior at the expense of everything else. An SJW is not only not an anime fan, they are a fan of nothing but their ideology. Same as a hardcore drug addict eventually gets. They'll steal from their friends, their family, and so on, to fuel the habit. The SJW is obsessed with applying a totalizing worldview and demonizing everything that falls outside of it. They are not anime fans, because they are not fans of anything anymore except the cult. That is what totalitarian ideology aspires to achieve, and in their case, does.

Stupid analogies asides... got an actual source for all that dollar-store psychopathologizing of "the SJW"? Also, bold of you to talk about how "the SJW is obsessed with applying a totalizing worldview and demonizing everything that falls outside of it" while simultaneously trying to argue that it's impossible to be critical of a plot element in an anime you liked and be an anime fan, and that if you are critical then you are actually a "SJW", a malicious totalitarian cult member/drug addict incapable of liking the same stuff you do who only exists to attack you and the things you love. That's definitely not a totalizing worldview and demonization that you're putting out there.



You asked for an example, not an illustrative example, and you can continue to pretend it's a series of isolated incidents until the cows come home, but you cannot force other people to ignore reality. A gradual encroachment has occurred and escalated over the past several decades and its noticeable.

It's not a stupid analogy, but descriptive of how totalitarian ideologies operate and what they aspire to achieve in their followers.
I never argued it's impossible to be critical of a plot element in an anime I like, nor that if you are critical you are automatically an SJW. SJW = "Everyoen who isn't an SJW is evil.". You are pretending I am the same for noting "SJWs are evil", because you have bought into their Manichaean bollocks instead of recognizing that the world is not divided into two camps of people. SJWs are just one really shitty camp of people. But that doesn't mean all non-SJWs are good. I'll happily point to some of those camps and go "They're evil too". That isn't the same thing, because i'm not saying "Everyone who isn't from my camp is evil" like SJWs are.

Digibro does a good series on Shield Hero and why it goes downhill and so on, and he isn't an SJW.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Thu May 23, 2019 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
New Sig, who dis?
Patriarchy theory is a valid academic theory, not incel tier psychological abuse which maps on to any situation a woman doesn't like and enables them to rationalize a hostility to men, we swear.
https://i.redd.it/zj1a11ooxwb31.jpg

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Liriena
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 56587
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Thu May 23, 2019 9:22 am

Cappuccina wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:Everything is, by nature, political.

It is if people make it political.

No, it's political before people "make" it political. Because no creator can escape from their own conditions of production. The creation of meaning, semiosis, is a social process.
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
if you passed biology and know
gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

I disown most of my previous posts

User avatar
Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 51493
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Thu May 23, 2019 9:25 am

Liriena wrote:
Cappuccina wrote:It is if people make it political.

No, it's political before people "make" it political. Because no creator can escape from their own conditions of production. The creation of meaning, semiosis, is a social process.


I notice you haven't addressed the point that this doesn't make acting like a culture commissar the same thing as art discussion or criticism.

Compare Lindsey Ellis.
I like Lindsey. I don't mind her. I even like her reviews, despite the fact you might assume I dislike them.

Because she does not present a political perspective or lens on a topic as fact and insist that anyone who doesn't use that lens and only that lens to view the work "Hates women" or some shit.

STALIN SAYS THIS ART BAD, SO THIS ART BAD. GULAG WITH U, ART BANNED NOW. DISAGREEMENT EVIDENCE OF WRONGDOING. SOVIET REALISM ONLY. Said Uggo The Ogre Anime Reviewer.

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/12048- ... ssible-for
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Thu May 23, 2019 9:29 am, edited 5 times in total.
New Sig, who dis?
Patriarchy theory is a valid academic theory, not incel tier psychological abuse which maps on to any situation a woman doesn't like and enables them to rationalize a hostility to men, we swear.
https://i.redd.it/zj1a11ooxwb31.jpg

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Nakena
Senator
 
Posts: 4129
Founded: May 06, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nakena » Thu May 23, 2019 9:29 am

To be fair, prior to the mid 2010s, politics weren't so heavily involved and expressed as it is now. Today almost everything is watched, analyzed and looked at under heavily politicized viewpoints or context. And this goes for "both" sides.

Its a relative recent development. And prolly not one that is going to last.
Last edited by Nakena on Thu May 23, 2019 9:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Liriena
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 56587
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Thu May 23, 2019 9:30 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Liriena wrote:If your illustrative example fails to illustrate the wider context you want to whine about, then your wider context may well be a fabrication of yours.


Stupid analogies asides... got an actual source for all that dollar-store psychopathologizing of "the SJW"? Also, bold of you to talk about how "the SJW is obsessed with applying a totalizing worldview and demonizing everything that falls outside of it" while simultaneously trying to argue that it's impossible to be critical of a plot element in an anime you liked and be an anime fan, and that if you are critical then you are actually a "SJW", a malicious totalitarian cult member/drug addict incapable of liking the same stuff you do who only exists to attack you and the things you love. That's definitely not a totalizing worldview and demonization that you're putting out there.



You asked for an example, not an illustrative example, and you can continue to pretend it's a series of isolated incidents until the cows come home, but you cannot force other people to ignore reality. A gradual encroachment has occurred and escalated over the past several decades and its noticeable.

Sure, dude, the Jews are totally infiltrating your schools and killing your babies because Theodor Adorno wrote something you disliked and that's definitely an example of a vast Jewish conspiracy to destroy your precious art.

Ostroeuropa wrote:It's not a stupid analogy, but descriptive of how totalitarian ideologies operate and what they aspire to achieve in their followers.

And yet there is no connective tissue between that and whatever masochistic fantasy you have elaborated about "SJW" domination.

Ostroeuropa wrote:SJW = "Everyoen who isn't an SJW is evil."

Because, as we all know, that is exactly who all of [[they]] think and talk.

Ostroeuropa wrote:You are pretending I am the same for noting "SJWs are evil"

I'm not "pretending". I'm observing. You've otherized this ill-defined category to the point of caricature and you still think you're being the reasonable one?

Ostroeuropa wrote:because you have bought into their Manichaean bollocks instead of recognizing that the world is not divided into two camps of people.

Now you are just being delirious. This has nothing to do with anything I said.

Ostroeuropa wrote:SJWs are just one really shitty camp of people.

I thought they were like drug addicts? Don't you have any sympathy for drug addicts?

Ostroeuropa wrote:But that doesn't mean all non-SJWs are good. I'll happily point to some of those camps and go "They're evil too". That isn't the same thing, because i'm not saying "Everyone who isn't from my camp is evil" like SJWs are.

But you are definitely saying "everyone who is a SJW is an evil liar infiltrating muh anime to take away my enjoyment of it".

Ostroeuropa wrote:Digibro does a good series on Shield Hero and why it goes downhill and so on, and he isn't an SJW.

Happy that you suddenly remembered that not all criticism of Shield Hero is an evil SJW plot because you found one non-SJW critic. That's very heartening.
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
if you passed biology and know
gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

I disown most of my previous posts

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Proctopeo
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9496
Founded: Sep 26, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Proctopeo » Thu May 23, 2019 9:31 am

Liri, you missed my response to you. I assume this is an accident?
Center-right libertarian LockeabooEconomic: 5.25
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Liriena
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Thu May 23, 2019 9:34 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Liriena wrote:No, it's political before people "make" it political. Because no creator can escape from their own conditions of production. The creation of meaning, semiosis, is a social process.


I notice you haven't addressed the point that this doesn't make acting like a culture commissar the same thing as art discussion or criticism.

Compare Lindsey Ellis.
I like Lindsey. I don't mind her. I even like her reviews, despite the fact you might assume I dislike them.

Because she does not present a political perspective or lens on a topic as fact and insist that anyone who doesn't use that lens and only that lens to view the work "Hates women" or some shit.

STALIN SAYS THIS ART BAD, SO THIS ART BAD. GULAG WITH U, ART BANNED NOW. DISAGREEMENT EVIDENCE OF WRONGDOING. SOVIET REALISM ONLY. Said Uggo The Ogre Anime Reviewer.

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/12048- ... ssible-for

I appreciate your "one of the good ones" tokenism with Lindsey Ellis, but your case is still weak as fuck.

You poined me in the direction of a handful of reviews, some of them actually positive, where people who you claim, without proof, aren't "real" anime fans talk trash about a plot element you thought wasn't bad at all. I can agree with your criticism of some of those reviewers treating their opinion and their framework as some sort of objective truth, but there's a big gap between that and "SJWs infiltrated anime reviews because they actually hate anime, have never honestly liked any anime, and want to ruin it for me and all white men!!!!!!!".

Proctopeo wrote:Liri, you missed my response to you. I assume this is an accident?

Indeed. Ostro kinda monopolized my attention and I missed it.
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


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Liriena
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Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Thu May 23, 2019 9:41 am

Proctopeo wrote:
Liriena wrote:A couple things: political critique of cultural artifacts is just as "purely ideological" as "apolitical" critique.

:eyebrow:

Art is political, including anime.

Well, while this is true, very frequently looking for some intense political meaning turns up either absolutely nothing, or something completely rooted in the political leanings of the person doing the search.

That you and Ostro happen to personally disagree with the arguments of that critique doesn't make it some sort of evil infiltration to destroy the things you love.

Nice strawman, neither of us have said that. Try to be honest with your arguments.

And also, you're being a bit deceitful here. One reviewer in ANN panned it on those grounds. There were also two three-star reviews, one two-and-a-half-stars review, and the one-and-a-half-star review has this to say, beyond the false rape accusation thing:

The other reason I felt the need to take so much time addressing Rising of the Shield Hero's central controversy is because the rest of the show is so unforgivably boring. Naofumi is a completely uninteresting protagonist 70% of the time and a complete tool for the other 30%. He's only the most "likable" member of the cast so far because everyone else is either a paper-thin nobody or an unrepentant asshole. The fantasy world itself has no unique qualities of its own – for all I know, it may as well be the same setting as Death March to The Parallel World Rhapsody. The only true conflict in this double-length premiere, which is constantly hammered home through the episode's awful monotonous dialogue, is that Naofumi feels like a loser for being stuck as the Shield Guy. It's contrived, silly, and in no way warrants so much runtime. Shields are perfectly capable deadly weapons. People have been murdering other people with shields since the literal dawn of human civilization. Watching a stale cracker of a protagonist get dunked on for an hour because he's been assigned a role that millions of MMO players fulfill just fine every day does not a good premiere make.

Rising of the Shield Hero has only one redeeming quality, and that is its production values. Kinema Citrus still knows how to bring this world to life in vivid color, even if the overall direction is mostly lifeless, and Kevin Penkin's score is wonderful as always. I joked at the beginning of the season that Penkin's music would be the only reason I watched this show, but even that turned out to be setting the bar too high. Even if the Myne plot were completely cut out, this show would still feel like a waste of time, because it offers absolutely nothing we haven't seen done better a dozen times before. I'll be more than happy to simply buy the OST when it comes out and not waste any more time with this nonsense series.

Given that he mentions the false rape accusation later on, his two other well fleshed-out points seem to be:
1) The characters are trash. This is a fair enough point to make, and one I can't dispute or agree with since I never watched or read it. Might it be a totally BS criticism? Yeah. I just don't know the characters - and it's likely he didn't either, since he reviewed only the first episode. First impressions count, but reviewing a book by its first chapter is usually a questionable tactic.
2) That he's an idiot for not using his shield offensively. Looking at the design of the shield, it doesn't look too effective as a melee weapon, being closest to a riot shield from what I can tell of its design; the only melee purpose a riot shield serves is pushing people away, which... isn't much. If it resembled a viking shield, or a buckler, there'd be a solid argument to be made. Sure, it could break an arm, but that's not something to rely on.

Liriena wrote:What Proctopeo said failed to actually address my question. Are you or Proctopeo actually arguing that "no true anime fan" honestly criticized the anime on those grounds, and that it was all an external assault by "SJW" brigaders who actually hate anime?

Criticizing something for daring to use something they deny as real as a plot point does at the very least mean their criticism isn't honest; while the ANN reviewer did have other points (one of them fair, the other dubious), Anime Feminist did indeed discard it on that one single issue. They too pulled the "they must hate women!" card.

Then again, with a tagline of "Japanese pop culture through a feminist lens", I'm pretty sure Anime Feminist's "reviewers" barely watch anime. Being ideologically invested in one particular perspective tends to precede actually doing one's job correctly (t. Gawker).

Liriena wrote:So it seems that the example we've got of "SJWs infiltrating and destroying my hobbies" is actually fellow anime fans not liking the things you do for reasons you disagree with.

Ah, more strawmen. Do you have a crow problem?

Ostroeuropa wrote:
His review was 90% anti-male sexist bullshit, and 10% not actually a professional review, just an "It's bad" and "The character is boring". That's not me disagreeing because he didn't give the show a fair shake, it's me disagreeing because he didn't actually write a review. If I published Das Kapital and tagged on a page at the end saying "And even if you ignore all that, this movie with bankers in it is bad. The characters are dumb and I don't like them.".

That's not a review. Do you get that? Why are you deliberately ignoring that?

Pretty much yes, they are infiltrators. They're hired for clickbait, and this toxic nonsense generates clicks.

I have to agree here. Most of his review is indeed either criticisms leveled poorly or "how dare this chinese cartoon depict something I reject as being real! they must hate women!"

I don't really have a lot of things to say on this response. I may have strawmanned you a bit, yes. But I'm still seeing you continue the "can't be a true anime fan if you make this specific criticism" argument here with the feminist reviewer(s), assuming that they can't be "real anime fans" if they claim to look at anime from a feminist lense... which is weird.

Non-feminist example: Rantasmo is a Youtuber who specializes in talking about video games, anime, TV shows and movies through a queer lense and, lo and behold, he's clearly, indisputably, a huge fan of much of the stuff he talks about. Not all of it, but definitely a lot of it. The fact that his critique comes from a very "ideologically invested" perspective clearly doesn't keep him from genuinely liking stuff.
Last edited by Liriena on Thu May 23, 2019 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
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Cappuccina
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Cappuccina » Thu May 23, 2019 9:43 am

Liriena wrote:
Cappuccina wrote:It is if people make it political.

No, it's political before people "make" it political. Because no creator can escape from their own conditions of production. The creation of meaning, semiosis, is a social process.


Ok so let me try to understand you here, you're saying we should be analyzing the "meaning" of a work even if it wasn't intented to actually have one just because their thoughts are affected by the "zeitgeist" of society? Isn't that a bit much?

When I watch a movie I don't microanalyze it for political nuance, whether the characters are doing something I agree with or not. Sure sometimes I'll notice an interesting philosophical point, but I don't actively hunt for them.
Last edited by Cappuccina on Thu May 23, 2019 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Economic Left/Right: -5.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.46

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Liriena
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Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Thu May 23, 2019 9:46 am

Cappuccina wrote:
Liriena wrote:No, it's political before people "make" it political. Because no creator can escape from their own conditions of production. The creation of meaning, semiosis, is a social process.


Ok so let me try to understand you here, you're saying we should be analyzing the "meaning" of a work even if it wasn't intented to actually have one just because their thoughts are affected by the "zeitgeist" of society? Isn't that a bit much?

Kinda. And no, it's not "a bit much". Mind you, I'm not saying you should be forced to make that sort of analysis with everything you enjoy.

Cappuccina wrote:When I watch a movie I don't microanalyze it for political nuance, whether the characters are doing something I agree with or not. Sure sometimes I'll notice an interesting philosophical point, but I don't actively hunt for them.

And that's fine... but other people will, and their way of consuming a movie is just as valid as yours.
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
if you passed biology and know
gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

I disown most of my previous posts

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Cappuccina
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Posts: 1516
Founded: Jun 05, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Cappuccina » Thu May 23, 2019 9:49 am

Liriena wrote:
Cappuccina wrote:
Ok so let me try to understand you here, you're saying we should be analyzing the "meaning" of a work even if it wasn't intented to actually have one just because their thoughts are affected by the "zeitgeist" of society? Isn't that a bit much?

Kinda. And no, it's not "a bit much". Mind you, I'm not saying you should be forced to make that sort of analysis with everything you enjoy.

Cappuccina wrote:When I watch a movie I don't microanalyze it for political nuance, whether the characters are doing something I agree with or not. Sure sometimes I'll notice an interesting philosophical point, but I don't actively hunt for them.

And that's fine... but other people will, and their way of consuming a movie is just as valid as yours.


Trust me, if I applied my politics to some of the media I enjoy (like anime), my head would've exploded long ago.
Obligatory Pronouns so you don't oppress me with misgendering: her/she....yay
##################
Economic Left/Right: -5.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.46

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The Xenopolis Confederation
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Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Thu May 23, 2019 9:51 am

Liriena wrote:
Cappuccina wrote:
Ok so let me try to understand you here, you're saying we should be analyzing the "meaning" of a work even if it wasn't intented to actually have one just because their thoughts are affected by the "zeitgeist" of society? Isn't that a bit much?

Kinda. And no, it's not "a bit much". Mind you, I'm not saying you should be forced to make that sort of analysis with everything you enjoy.

Cappuccina wrote:When I watch a movie I don't microanalyze it for political nuance, whether the characters are doing something I agree with or not. Sure sometimes I'll notice an interesting philosophical point, but I don't actively hunt for them.

And that's fine... but other people will, and their way of consuming a movie is just as valid as yours.

To be honest, politicizing movies that obviously weren't meant to be politicized is fun for a meme, but not really useful outside of a meme.
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Psychedelic Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
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I'm an 18 year old Australian who tries to think about things but fails, as we all do. I'll regret this in 2 years tops.

I think I have gender dysphoria so I'd prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

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