NATION

PASSWORD

LWDT 7: The Earth and Heavens Tremble.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Which Book on Leftist Ideology is Your Preferred Book?

The Communist Manifesto (Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels)
23
18%
The Conquest of Bread (Peter Kropotkin)
24
19%
Das Kapital (Karl Marx)
21
16%
What is Property? (Pierre-Joseph Proudhon)
2
2%
Guerilla Warfare (Che Guevara)
8
6%
Mutual Aid (Peter Kropotkin)
2
2%
Profit Over People (Noam Chomsky)
4
3%
The Ego and Its Own (Max Stirner)
8
6%
Debt: The First 5,000 Years (David Graeber)
5
4%
Other (Please Explain)
32
25%
 
Total votes : 129

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Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26188
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Thu May 23, 2019 8:06 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:


And if you bothered to keep reading you'd notice the far more modern challenges to that view. Ones which should be obvious.

Maybe if your kid is interacting with the tv 8 hours a day, it's not what's ON the tv causing their problems with connecting to other people. Same for video games.

The inane and trite observation that someone who drinks gallons of milk constantly develops health issues does not justify a paranoid conspiracy about how milk in general is bad for your health and needs to be banned.


Here's a more in-depth study on the matter, since you are so cocksure there's literally no possible way at all whatsoever violent media can have any influence on anyone.
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Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

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Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 52477
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Thu May 23, 2019 8:06 am

Liriena wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:You're ignoring instances of SJWs going further than that

Such as?

Ostroeuropa wrote:and ignoring how the "diversity" plays out in those cases mostly as shitty writing, coupled with hostile vitriol to noting that shitty writing because "diversity".

Examples?


We're discussing one currently?

Or you can look at the uproar over Shield Hero with all the flak it got for having a main character who was falsely accused of rape because DAS SEXIST DOESNT HAPPEN NOT REAL and so on, despite this being integral to the plot and straight up good writing thematically that connects to his overall story arc.

There's plenty Lir.

Examples?
Ghostbusters.
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Patriarchy theory is a valid academic theory, not incel tier psychological abuse which maps on to any situation a woman doesn't like and enables them to rationalize a hostility to men, we swear.
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Ostroeuropa
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Posts: 52477
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Thu May 23, 2019 8:10 am

Torrocca wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
And if you bothered to keep reading you'd notice the far more modern challenges to that view. Ones which should be obvious.

Maybe if your kid is interacting with the tv 8 hours a day, it's not what's ON the tv causing their problems with connecting to other people. Same for video games.

The inane and trite observation that someone who drinks gallons of milk constantly develops health issues does not justify a paranoid conspiracy about how milk in general is bad for your health and needs to be banned.


Here's a more in-depth study on the matter, since you are so cocksure there's literally no possible way at all whatsoever violent media can have any influence on anyone.


This is a study that conflates violent roleplay for violence, something that has been catastrophic for boys in the education system if you bother to look into the matter. The same paranoid nonsense this study pushes which you are agreeing with has never actually been proven. There is no correlation between a kid making a finger gun and saying "Bang bang" while running around a playground with his friends, and shooting up a school, because, listen carefully:

People can tell the difference.

Leonard Sax has written at length on this topic and how this zero tolerance attitude has resulted in anti-male sexism in schools.

What your studies are doing is showing that if you show children FICTION WITH VIOLENCE, they will engage in FICTIONAL VIOLENCE, not violence itself. This is incredibly basic, and the lack of ability to tell the difference between reality and fiction this view suggests is disturbing.

Know what they haven't studied?

Show some kids a violent movie, then put the kids in a room and see if they beat the shit out of eachother.
Know why?

Because they don't. That's ludicrous.

So instead these types who have a paranoid theory about violence in media show that children play with dolls and have war games more if you show them war movies and go;
"AHAH! MOVIES MAKE YOU HITLER! ITS PROVEN!"

Ultimately its rooted in some disgusting hybrid of feminist theory and conservative morality about sex.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Thu May 23, 2019 8:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
New Sig, who dis?
Patriarchy theory is a valid academic theory, not incel tier psychological abuse which maps on to any situation a woman doesn't like and enables them to rationalize a hostility to men, we swear.
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Liriena
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Posts: 57573
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Thu May 23, 2019 8:10 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Liriena wrote:Such as?


Examples?


We're discussing one currently?

Or you can look at the uproar over Shield Hero with all the flak it got for having a main character who was falsely accused of rape because DAS SEXIST DOESNT HAPPEN NOT REAL and so on, despite this being integral to the plot and straight up good writing thematically that connects to his overall story arc.

How big was that uproar, exactly?

Ostroeuropa wrote:Examples?
Ghostbusters.

Are you implying that the feminist counter-reaction that followed the preemptive criticism that the film got somehow influenced the writing and pre-production of the film?

And yes, the film was terribly written, but then you'd have to prove that "SJWs" had anything to do with that, rather than the film just happening to have two deeply untalented writers and being produced by a mediocre studio.

Are you arguing that if a "SJW" writes a bad screenplay, it's because they are a "SJW", rather than just untalented? What happens when a "SJW" writes a good screenplay or novel? Is it just an accident?
Last edited by Liriena on Thu May 23, 2019 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
be gay do crime


I am:
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Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
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Galloism
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Posts: 61422
Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Thu May 23, 2019 8:12 am

Liriena wrote:And yes, the film was terribly written, but then you'd have to prove that "SJWs" had anything to do with that, rather than the film just happening to have two deeply untalented writers and being produced by a mediocre studio.

Also, you can't have all four main characters be comic relief. Ideally you have one or two, but at least have ONE character who plays the whole thing serious and straight.

It makes the comic relief a lot more funny if at least one character is perpetually pissed off by it.
Last edited by Galloism on Thu May 23, 2019 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Liriena
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Posts: 57573
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Thu May 23, 2019 8:13 am

Galloism wrote:
Liriena wrote:And yes, the film was terribly written, but then you'd have to prove that "SJWs" had anything to do with that, rather than the film just happening to have two deeply untalented writers and being produced by a mediocre studio.

Also, you can't have all four main characters be comic relief. Ideally you have one or two, but at least have ONE character who plays the whole thing serious and straight.

It makes the comic relief a lot more funny if at least one character is perpetually pissed off by it.

DO YOU GET IT PAUL FEEEEEEIG??!!!
Last edited by Liriena on Thu May 23, 2019 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


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Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 52477
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Thu May 23, 2019 8:13 am

Liriena wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
We're discussing one currently?

Or you can look at the uproar over Shield Hero with all the flak it got for having a main character who was falsely accused of rape because DAS SEXIST DOESNT HAPPEN NOT REAL and so on, despite this being integral to the plot and straight up good writing thematically that connects to his overall story arc.

How big was that uproar, exactly?

Ostroeuropa wrote:Examples?
Ghostbusters.

Are you implying that the feminist counter-reaction that followed the preemptive criticism that the film got somehow influenced the writing and pre-production of the film?

And yes, the film was terribly written, but then you'd have to prove that "SJWs" had anything to do with that, rather than the film just happening to have two deeply untalented writers and being produced by a mediocre studio.


Pretty big considering.

The reaction to the trailer was what prompted the criticism, and then feminists launched into a defense of the film and claimed criticism was sexist.
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Nakena
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6108
Founded: May 06, 2017
Father Knows Best State

Postby Nakena » Thu May 23, 2019 8:15 am

I like how this Thread is now all about Loli and 2016 drama.

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Liriena
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Posts: 57573
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Thu May 23, 2019 8:16 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Liriena wrote:How big was that uproar, exactly?


Are you implying that the feminist counter-reaction that followed the preemptive criticism that the film got somehow influenced the writing and pre-production of the film?

And yes, the film was terribly written, but then you'd have to prove that "SJWs" had anything to do with that, rather than the film just happening to have two deeply untalented writers and being produced by a mediocre studio.


Pretty big considering.

Are we talking mainstream coverage, trending hashtags, big public figures...?

Ostroeuropa wrote:The reaction to the trailer was what prompted the criticism, and then feminists launched into a defense of the film and claimed criticism was sexist.

None of which has anything to do with the quality of the film itself, does it? Just because feminist journalists criticized the criticism that the trailers received as "sexist" doesn't mean that those same feminist journalists had a hand in the writing of the film, or that the writers had an identical worldview.
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


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Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 52477
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Thu May 23, 2019 8:18 am

Liriena wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
Pretty big considering.

Are we talking mainstream coverage, trending hashtags, big public figures...?

Ostroeuropa wrote:The reaction to the trailer was what prompted the criticism, and then feminists launched into a defense of the film and claimed criticism was sexist.

None of which has anything to do with the quality of the film itself, does it? Just because feminist journalists criticized the criticism that the trailers received as "sexist" doesn't mean that those same feminist journalists had a hand in the writing of the film, or that the writers had an identical worldview.


It didn't get that big, but in the anime scene it was pretty well known. Anime review sites and magazines overrun with SJWs pushed that narrative.

Feige said he set out to write a feminist comedy.
New Sig, who dis?
Patriarchy theory is a valid academic theory, not incel tier psychological abuse which maps on to any situation a woman doesn't like and enables them to rationalize a hostility to men, we swear.
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Proctopeo
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Posts: 10144
Founded: Sep 26, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Proctopeo » Thu May 23, 2019 8:19 am

It's important to note that, with this Cirnofriend, most of their lewd retweets lately seem to be... big anime tiddies. I can't check their likes or replies because I don't have a Twitter account, so I'll ask a friend to check for me, but it's likely more of the same. So it seems to be mostly just people blindly believing Dril.

Now, I'm of the mind that calling loli "pedophilia" is a recipe for devaluing the term "pedophilia". I've known people into far worse, and they weren't the sort to consume human flesh, or disembowel someone, so...
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Liriena
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Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Thu May 23, 2019 8:23 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Liriena wrote:Are we talking mainstream coverage, trending hashtags, big public figures...?


None of which has anything to do with the quality of the film itself, does it? Just because feminist journalists criticized the criticism that the trailers received as "sexist" doesn't mean that those same feminist journalists had a hand in the writing of the film, or that the writers had an identical worldview.


It didn't get that big, but in the anime scene it was pretty well known. Anime review sites and magazines overrun with SJWs pushed that narrative.

"Overrun with SJWs"? Sounds like you think there's a "no true anime fan" thing going on; that the only people who could have been critical of that plot element must have been brigading SJW infiltrators. Sounds kinda biased, dude.

Ostroeuropa wrote:Feige said he set out to write a feminist comedy.

Did he?
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


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Proctopeo
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Posts: 10144
Founded: Sep 26, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Proctopeo » Thu May 23, 2019 8:30 am

Liriena wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
It didn't get that big, but in the anime scene it was pretty well known. Anime review sites and magazines overrun with SJWs pushed that narrative.

"Overrun with SJWs"? Sounds like you think there's a "no true anime fan" thing going on; that the only people who could have been critical of that plot element must have been brigading SJW infiltrators. Sounds kinda biased, dude.

Anime News Network and Anime Feminist both shitcanned "The Rising of the Shield Hero", not for anything like quality of writing, story, characters, or art, but... one single plot point.

That the main character was falsely accused of rape by a woman.
That was their objection. The audacity that the writers would even consider that possible within the laws of physics.
ANN panned it hard (saying to "burn it and salt the earth" and accusing the writer of being "angry at women") and AF refused to even touch it. That isn't called "being critical". It's purely ideological.

Coincidentally I get my anime news from other sources, even long before that.
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Cekoviu
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Posts: 11715
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cekoviu » Thu May 23, 2019 8:34 am

Can I just say how horrifying it is that anime has become a legitimate political topic to debate?
В каком автобусе вы живете? А почему?
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Liriena
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Posts: 57573
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Thu May 23, 2019 8:39 am

Proctopeo wrote:ANN panned it hard (saying to "burn it and salt the earth" and accusing the writer of being "angry at women") and AF refused to even touch it. That isn't called "being critical". It's purely ideological.

A couple things: political critique of cultural artifacts is just as "purely ideological" as "apolitical" critique. Art is political, including anime. That you and Ostro happen to personally disagree with the arguments of that critique doesn't make it some sort of evil infiltration to destroy the things you love. And also, you're being a bit deceitful here. One reviewer in ANN panned it on those grounds. There were also two three-star reviews, one two-and-a-half-stars review, and the one-and-a-half-star review has this to say, beyond the false rape accusation thing:

The other reason I felt the need to take so much time addressing Rising of the Shield Hero's central controversy is because the rest of the show is so unforgivably boring. Naofumi is a completely uninteresting protagonist 70% of the time and a complete tool for the other 30%. He's only the most "likable" member of the cast so far because everyone else is either a paper-thin nobody or an unrepentant asshole. The fantasy world itself has no unique qualities of its own – for all I know, it may as well be the same setting as Death March to The Parallel World Rhapsody. The only true conflict in this double-length premiere, which is constantly hammered home through the episode's awful monotonous dialogue, is that Naofumi feels like a loser for being stuck as the Shield Guy. It's contrived, silly, and in no way warrants so much runtime. Shields are perfectly capable deadly weapons. People have been murdering other people with shields since the literal dawn of human civilization. Watching a stale cracker of a protagonist get dunked on for an hour because he's been assigned a role that millions of MMO players fulfill just fine every day does not a good premiere make.

Rising of the Shield Hero has only one redeeming quality, and that is its production values. Kinema Citrus still knows how to bring this world to life in vivid color, even if the overall direction is mostly lifeless, and Kevin Penkin's score is wonderful as always. I joked at the beginning of the season that Penkin's music would be the only reason I watched this show, but even that turned out to be setting the bar too high. Even if the Myne plot were completely cut out, this show would still feel like a waste of time, because it offers absolutely nothing we haven't seen done better a dozen times before. I'll be more than happy to simply buy the OST when it comes out and not waste any more time with this nonsense series.
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
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gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

I disown most of my previous posts

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Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 52477
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Thu May 23, 2019 8:39 am

Liriena wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
It didn't get that big, but in the anime scene it was pretty well known. Anime review sites and magazines overrun with SJWs pushed that narrative.

"Overrun with SJWs"? Sounds like you think there's a "no true anime fan" thing going on; that the only people who could have been critical of that plot element must have been brigading SJW infiltrators. Sounds kinda biased, dude.

Ostroeuropa wrote:Feige said he set out to write a feminist comedy.

Did he?


What Proctopeo said, and beyond that, deliberately avoiding confronting the obvious isn't an argument.
New Sig, who dis?
Patriarchy theory is a valid academic theory, not incel tier psychological abuse which maps on to any situation a woman doesn't like and enables them to rationalize a hostility to men, we swear.
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The Xenopolis Confederation
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7870
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Thu May 23, 2019 8:39 am

Torrocca wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
And if you bothered to keep reading you'd notice the far more modern challenges to that view. Ones which should be obvious.

Maybe if your kid is interacting with the tv 8 hours a day, it's not what's ON the tv causing their problems with connecting to other people. Same for video games.

The inane and trite observation that someone who drinks gallons of milk constantly develops health issues does not justify a paranoid conspiracy about how milk in general is bad for your health and needs to be banned.


Here's a more in-depth study on the matter, since you are so cocksure there's literally no possible way at all whatsoever violent media can have any influence on anyone.

That study's depressing. Still, by your own logic you are saying that violent movies should be treated in a similar way to lolis.
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Liriena
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 57573
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Thu May 23, 2019 8:39 am

Cekoviu wrote:Can I just say how horrifying it is that anime has become a legitimate political topic to debate?

Nah, it's good and necessary. If anime gets to be treated like a form of art, that means it, and its fans, owe it to themselves to take a meaningful look into its politics.
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
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Liriena
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 57573
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Thu May 23, 2019 8:41 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Liriena wrote:"Overrun with SJWs"? Sounds like you think there's a "no true anime fan" thing going on; that the only people who could have been critical of that plot element must have been brigading SJW infiltrators. Sounds kinda biased, dude.


Did he?


What Proctopeo said, and beyond that, deliberately avoiding confronting the obvious isn't an argument.

What Proctopeo said failed to actually address my question. Are you or Proctopeo actually arguing that "no true anime fan" honestly criticized the anime on those grounds, and that it was all an external assault by "SJW" brigaders who actually hate anime?
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
if you passed biology and know
gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

I disown most of my previous posts

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Liriena
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 57573
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Thu May 23, 2019 8:43 am

So it seems that the example we've got of "SJWs infiltrating and destroying my hobbies" is actually fellow anime fans not liking the things you do for reasons you disagree with.
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Ostroeuropa
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Thu May 23, 2019 8:50 am

Liriena wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:ANN panned it hard (saying to "burn it and salt the earth" and accusing the writer of being "angry at women") and AF refused to even touch it. That isn't called "being critical". It's purely ideological.

A couple things: political critique of cultural artifacts is just as "purely ideological" as "apolitical" critique. Art is political, including anime. That you and Ostro happen to personally disagree with the arguments of that critique doesn't make it some sort of evil infiltration to destroy the things you love. And also, you're being a bit deceitful here. One reviewer in ANN panned it on those grounds. There were also two three-star reviews, one two-and-a-half-stars review, and the one-and-a-half-star review has this to say, beyond the false rape accusation thing:

The other reason I felt the need to take so much time addressing Rising of the Shield Hero's central controversy is because the rest of the show is so unforgivably boring. Naofumi is a completely uninteresting protagonist 70% of the time and a complete tool for the other 30%. He's only the most "likable" member of the cast so far because everyone else is either a paper-thin nobody or an unrepentant asshole. The fantasy world itself has no unique qualities of its own – for all I know, it may as well be the same setting as Death March to The Parallel World Rhapsody. The only true conflict in this double-length premiere, which is constantly hammered home through the episode's awful monotonous dialogue, is that Naofumi feels like a loser for being stuck as the Shield Guy. It's contrived, silly, and in no way warrants so much runtime. Shields are perfectly capable deadly weapons. People have been murdering other people with shields since the literal dawn of human civilization. Watching a stale cracker of a protagonist get dunked on for an hour because he's been assigned a role that millions of MMO players fulfill just fine every day does not a good premiere make.

Rising of the Shield Hero has only one redeeming quality, and that is its production values. Kinema Citrus still knows how to bring this world to life in vivid color, even if the overall direction is mostly lifeless, and Kevin Penkin's score is wonderful as always. I joked at the beginning of the season that Penkin's music would be the only reason I watched this show, but even that turned out to be setting the bar too high. Even if the Myne plot were completely cut out, this show would still feel like a waste of time, because it offers absolutely nothing we haven't seen done better a dozen times before. I'll be more than happy to simply buy the OST when it comes out and not waste any more time with this nonsense series.


Presenting ideological critique as fact rather than merely one lens, and pretending people who reject that lens are evil people, and that if a show fails to live up to a particular lens of critique, is ideological activism and political, and is not legitimate art discussion. You are capable of understand this difference, you simply refuse to. A culture commissariat is not a positive thing for society, what about that don't you get?

The quoted review is basically obfuscating the intent of the review, as you note, they spent "So much time" focused on one plot point, but then don't actually go into detail on the rest of it, just throw out claims about the characters and so on, which is a shallow analysis. They may as well have said;

"I spent so long on the controversy and shilling my fucked up and anti-male worldview rather than talking about the anime, because the anime is bad and sucks. The end.".

Why is he uninteresting?
How is he a tool?

The reviewer claims the guy is "Likeable" but doesn't go into how this interacts with him being an uninteresting tool. (This is because this section of the review isn't sincere. It's a lazy attempt to obfuscate political diatribes for reviewing.).

The show focuses on Naofumi being depressed as a result of PTSD. He deflects and claims it's about him being "The shield hero", but it's way, way deeper than that. He lashes out and blames his failure on his shitty tools, claims his shitty tools are why he is sad, and so on. It's only when he deals with his issues (And notably, AFTER the scene where the depression symptom of "Food losing its taste" goes away and he cries about it because e missed food) that he learns how to appreciate the tool he does have, and begin using it effectively.

"Contrived" is this reviewers ignoring of the actual plot of the story by focusing on superficial surface elements suggesting they are, as you said, "Not a real anime fan", given the depth and overanalysis they put into "OMG FALSE ACCUSATIONS!".

"Get dunked on because he's been assingned a role millions of MMO characters fulfill every day.".

That's not why he's dunked on. This is the point they hate so much. Everyone is a dick to Naofumi because he was falsely accused of raping someone and everyone treats him like its true. It's not about him being the shield hero. The characters pretend that's the case, he pretends that's the case, and nobody confronts the truth. That's the goddamn plot.

Up to and including him winning a duel, and EVERYONE there gaslighting him over it, telling him he got hit before the opponent did, and saying he lost and then taking the money he bet from him, daring him to challenge them and using his name with spite in their voice and he just goes "...nvm. I lost.".

"Even if the myne plot were cut out the show would feel like a waste of time.".

The myne plot is the plot. This SJW was so fucking triggered and it sent them off down such a rabbit hole they didn't pay attention to the fucking story. They don't make the connection between the false accusation and the rest of whats happening, because their brain shut down when it happened, so the story feels disconnected.

It's like if I up and went ballistic over Nielsons daughter getting kidnapped in taken, wrote pages and pages about sex trafficking, and then said; "and anyway this movie is shit. Nielson is just shooting loads of people for some reason, what an asshole.".
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Thu May 23, 2019 8:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Liriena
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Thu May 23, 2019 8:54 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Liriena wrote:A couple things: political critique of cultural artifacts is just as "purely ideological" as "apolitical" critique. Art is political, including anime. That you and Ostro happen to personally disagree with the arguments of that critique doesn't make it some sort of evil infiltration to destroy the things you love. And also, you're being a bit deceitful here. One reviewer in ANN panned it on those grounds. There were also two three-star reviews, one two-and-a-half-stars review, and the one-and-a-half-star review has this to say, beyond the false rape accusation thing:

The other reason I felt the need to take so much time addressing Rising of the Shield Hero's central controversy is because the rest of the show is so unforgivably boring. Naofumi is a completely uninteresting protagonist 70% of the time and a complete tool for the other 30%. He's only the most "likable" member of the cast so far because everyone else is either a paper-thin nobody or an unrepentant asshole. The fantasy world itself has no unique qualities of its own – for all I know, it may as well be the same setting as Death March to The Parallel World Rhapsody. The only true conflict in this double-length premiere, which is constantly hammered home through the episode's awful monotonous dialogue, is that Naofumi feels like a loser for being stuck as the Shield Guy. It's contrived, silly, and in no way warrants so much runtime. Shields are perfectly capable deadly weapons. People have been murdering other people with shields since the literal dawn of human civilization. Watching a stale cracker of a protagonist get dunked on for an hour because he's been assigned a role that millions of MMO players fulfill just fine every day does not a good premiere make.

Rising of the Shield Hero has only one redeeming quality, and that is its production values. Kinema Citrus still knows how to bring this world to life in vivid color, even if the overall direction is mostly lifeless, and Kevin Penkin's score is wonderful as always. I joked at the beginning of the season that Penkin's music would be the only reason I watched this show, but even that turned out to be setting the bar too high. Even if the Myne plot were completely cut out, this show would still feel like a waste of time, because it offers absolutely nothing we haven't seen done better a dozen times before. I'll be more than happy to simply buy the OST when it comes out and not waste any more time with this nonsense series.


Presenting ideological critique as fact rather than merely one lens, and pretending people who reject that lens are evil people, and that if a show fails to live up to a particular lens of critique, is ideological activism and political, and is not legitimate art discussion. You are capable of understand this difference, you simply refuse to. A culture commissariat is not a positive thing for society, what about that don't you get?

The quoted review is basically obfuscating the intent of the review, as you note, they spent "So much time" focused on one plot point, but then don't actually go into detail on the rest of it, just throw out claims about the characters and so on, which is a shallow analysis. They may as well have said;

"I spent so long on the controversy and shilling my fucked up and anti-male worldview rather than talking about the anime, because the anime is bad and sucks. The end.".

Why is he uninteresting?
How is he a tool?

The reviewer claims the guy is "Likeable" but doesn't go into how this interacts with him being an uninteresting tool. (This is because this section of the review isn't sincere. It's a lazy attempt to obfuscate political diatribes for reviewing.).

The show focuses on Naofumi being depressed as a result of PTSD. He deflects and claims it's about him being "The shield hero", but it's way, way deeper than that. He lashes out and blames his failure on his shitty tools, claims his shitty tools are why he is sad, and so on. It's only when he deals with his issues (And notably, AFTER the scene where the depression symptom of "Food losing its taste" goes away and he cries about it because e missed food) that he learns how to appreciate the tool he does have, and begin using it effectively.

"Contrived" is this reviewers ignoring of the actual plot of the story by focusing on superficial surface elements suggesting they are, as you said, "Not a real anime fan", given the depth and overanalysis they put into "OMG FALSE ACCUSATIONS!".

"Get dunked on because he's been assingned a role millions of MMO characters fulfill every day.".

That's not why he's dunked on. This is the point they hate so much. Everyone is a dick to Naofumi because he was falsely accused of raping someone and everyone treats him like its true. It's not about him being the shield hero. The characters pretend that's the case, he pretends that's the case, and nobody confronts the truth. That's the goddamn plot.

Up to and including him winning a duel, and EVERYONE there gaslighting him over it, telling him he got hit before the opponent did, and saying he lost and then taking the money he bet from him, daring him to challenge them and using his name with spite in their voice and he just goes "...nvm. I lost.".

"Even if the myne plot were cut out the show would feel like a waste of time.".

The myne plot is the plot. This SJW was so fucking triggered and it sent them off down such a rabbit hole they didn't pay attention to the fucking story. They don't make the connection between the false accusation and the rest of whats happening, because their brain shut down when it happened.

I get it. You disagreed with his review and you think he didn't give the show a fair shake. Congrats, you discovered subjectivity. That still doesn't answer my original question. Do you think this person is "no true anime fan" but actually a "SJW" infiltrator from the outside maliciously trying to tear down an anime you like?
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


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Ostroeuropa
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Thu May 23, 2019 8:58 am

Liriena wrote:I get it. You disagreed with his review and you think he didn't give the show a fair shake. Congrats, you discovered subjectivity. That still doesn't answer my original question. Do you think this person is "no true anime fan" but actually a "SJW" infiltrator from the outside maliciously trying to tear down an anime you like?


His review was 90% anti-male sexist bullshit, and 10% not actually a professional review, just an "It's bad" and "The character is boring". That's not me disagreeing because he didn't give the show a fair shake, it's me disagreeing because he didn't actually write a review. If I published Das Kapital and tagged on a page at the end saying "And even if you ignore all that, this movie with bankers in it is bad. The characters are dumb and I don't like them.".

That's not a review. Do you get that? Why are you deliberately ignoring that?

Pretty much yes, they are infiltrators. They're hired for clickbait, and this toxic nonsense generates clicks.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Thu May 23, 2019 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
New Sig, who dis?
Patriarchy theory is a valid academic theory, not incel tier psychological abuse which maps on to any situation a woman doesn't like and enables them to rationalize a hostility to men, we swear.
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Cekoviu
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cekoviu » Thu May 23, 2019 9:02 am

Liriena wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:Can I just say how horrifying it is that anime has become a legitimate political topic to debate?

Nah, it's good and necessary. If anime gets to be treated like a form of art, that means it, and its fans, owe it to themselves to take a meaningful look into its politics.

I can't figure out a rational reason to disagree with you, but I really want to nonetheless. :/
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Proctopeo
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Anarchy

Postby Proctopeo » Thu May 23, 2019 9:05 am

Liriena wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:ANN panned it hard (saying to "burn it and salt the earth" and accusing the writer of being "angry at women") and AF refused to even touch it. That isn't called "being critical". It's purely ideological.

A couple things: political critique of cultural artifacts is just as "purely ideological" as "apolitical" critique.

:eyebrow:

Art is political, including anime.

Well, while this is true, very frequently looking for some intense political meaning turns up either absolutely nothing, or something completely rooted in the political leanings of the person doing the search.

That you and Ostro happen to personally disagree with the arguments of that critique doesn't make it some sort of evil infiltration to destroy the things you love.

Nice strawman, neither of us have said that. Try to be honest with your arguments.

And also, you're being a bit deceitful here. One reviewer in ANN panned it on those grounds. There were also two three-star reviews, one two-and-a-half-stars review, and the one-and-a-half-star review has this to say, beyond the false rape accusation thing:

The other reason I felt the need to take so much time addressing Rising of the Shield Hero's central controversy is because the rest of the show is so unforgivably boring. Naofumi is a completely uninteresting protagonist 70% of the time and a complete tool for the other 30%. He's only the most "likable" member of the cast so far because everyone else is either a paper-thin nobody or an unrepentant asshole. The fantasy world itself has no unique qualities of its own – for all I know, it may as well be the same setting as Death March to The Parallel World Rhapsody. The only true conflict in this double-length premiere, which is constantly hammered home through the episode's awful monotonous dialogue, is that Naofumi feels like a loser for being stuck as the Shield Guy. It's contrived, silly, and in no way warrants so much runtime. Shields are perfectly capable deadly weapons. People have been murdering other people with shields since the literal dawn of human civilization. Watching a stale cracker of a protagonist get dunked on for an hour because he's been assigned a role that millions of MMO players fulfill just fine every day does not a good premiere make.

Rising of the Shield Hero has only one redeeming quality, and that is its production values. Kinema Citrus still knows how to bring this world to life in vivid color, even if the overall direction is mostly lifeless, and Kevin Penkin's score is wonderful as always. I joked at the beginning of the season that Penkin's music would be the only reason I watched this show, but even that turned out to be setting the bar too high. Even if the Myne plot were completely cut out, this show would still feel like a waste of time, because it offers absolutely nothing we haven't seen done better a dozen times before. I'll be more than happy to simply buy the OST when it comes out and not waste any more time with this nonsense series.

Given that he mentions the false rape accusation later on, his two other well fleshed-out points seem to be:
1) The characters are trash. This is a fair enough point to make, and one I can't dispute or agree with since I never watched or read it. Might it be a totally BS criticism? Yeah. I just don't know the characters - and it's likely he didn't either, since he reviewed only the first episode. First impressions count, but reviewing a book by its first chapter is usually a questionable tactic.
2) That he's an idiot for not using his shield offensively. Looking at the design of the shield, it doesn't look too effective as a melee weapon, being closest to a riot shield from what I can tell of its design; the only melee purpose a riot shield serves is pushing people away, which... isn't much. If it resembled a viking shield, or a buckler, there'd be a solid argument to be made. Sure, it could break an arm, but that's not something to rely on.

Liriena wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
What Proctopeo said, and beyond that, deliberately avoiding confronting the obvious isn't an argument.

What Proctopeo said failed to actually address my question. Are you or Proctopeo actually arguing that "no true anime fan" honestly criticized the anime on those grounds, and that it was all an external assault by "SJW" brigaders who actually hate anime?

Criticizing something for daring to use something they deny as real as a plot point does at the very least mean their criticism isn't honest; while the ANN reviewer did have other points (one of them fair, the other dubious), Anime Feminist did indeed discard it on that one single issue. They too pulled the "they must hate women!" card.

Then again, with a tagline of "Japanese pop culture through a feminist lens", I'm pretty sure Anime Feminist's "reviewers" barely watch anime. Being ideologically invested in one particular perspective tends to precede actually doing one's job correctly (t. Gawker).

Liriena wrote:So it seems that the example we've got of "SJWs infiltrating and destroying my hobbies" is actually fellow anime fans not liking the things you do for reasons you disagree with.

Ah, more strawmen. Do you have a crow problem?

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Liriena wrote:I get it. You disagreed with his review and you think he didn't give the show a fair shake. Congrats, you discovered subjectivity. That still doesn't answer my original question. Do you think this person is "no true anime fan" but actually a "SJW" infiltrator from the outside maliciously trying to tear down an anime you like?


His review was 90% anti-male sexist bullshit, and 10% not actually a professional review, just an "It's bad" and "The character is boring". That's not me disagreeing because he didn't give the show a fair shake, it's me disagreeing because he didn't actually write a review. If I published Das Kapital and tagged on a page at the end saying "And even if you ignore all that, this movie with bankers in it is bad. The characters are dumb and I don't like them.".

That's not a review. Do you get that? Why are you deliberately ignoring that?

Pretty much yes, they are infiltrators. They're hired for clickbait, and this toxic nonsense generates clicks.

I have to agree here. Most of his review is indeed either criticisms leveled poorly or "how dare this chinese cartoon depict something I reject as being real! they must hate women!"
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