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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 7:36 pm
by Torrocca
Benuty wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
I mean, it's really not a No True Scotsman to say Communism wasn't implemented in the USSR or the other Marxist-Leninist countries, but otherwise, yeah, Stalin went fucking bonkers destroying any chance of it happening.

I mean let us be honest the marxist-Leninists tried, and failed spectacularly.


Eh... not really. Lenin and the original Marxists of the Bolshevik Party may have tried to some degree, but when that degree included shit like snuffing out Communists in Kronstadt and Ukraine, I find it dubious.

PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 7:38 pm
by Cekoviu
Torrocca wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:That actually lines up pretty well with implementations of communism in the past...


>TFW the USSR and whatnot never actually implemented Communism but Commies of all stripes get bullied relentlessly regardless because of the association

Cek pls ;~;

That is fair - it wasn't technically communism, despite the name. I'll revise that to be attempts to implement communism.

PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 7:39 pm
by Benuty
Torrocca wrote:
Benuty wrote:I mean let us be honest the marxist-Leninists tried, and failed spectacularly.


Eh... not really. Lenin and the original Marxists of the Bolshevik Party may have tried to some degree, but when that degree included shit like snuffing out Communists in Kronstadt and Ukraine, I find it dubious.

Dubious? Maybe, but power, and ensuring its continuance rarely leaves people even with the best of intentions (ideologically) pure by the time they near the end of life. Case in point the quarantining, and destruction of the anarchist allies the Bolsheviks used to fight their enemies until no longer needed.

PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 7:40 pm
by Benuty
Pasong Tirad wrote:
Nakena wrote:
Weren't you also bioregionalist?

I don't believe I know what a bioregionalist is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioregionalism

This might explain it somewhat, but you know wiki links can only go so far.

PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 7:41 pm
by Torrocca
Benuty wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Eh... not really. Lenin and the original Marxists of the Bolshevik Party may have tried to some degree, but when that degree included shit like snuffing out Communists in Kronstadt and Ukraine, I find it dubious.

Dubious? Maybe, but power, and ensuring its continuance rarely leaves people even with the best of intentions (ideologically) pure by the time they near the end of life. Case in point the quarantining, and destruction of the anarchist allies the Bolsheviks used to fight their enemies until no longer needed.


Which is quite honestly the best example of why the Marxist idea of achieving Communism is flawed as all hell; the Anarchists skipped the Socialist state ruled by a "dictatorship of the proletariat" and went straight to the stateless, classless, moneyless society of Communism, whereas the Bolsheviks consolidated power rather than ever earnestly transition to Communism.

Cekoviu wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
>TFW the USSR and whatnot never actually implemented Communism but Commies of all stripes get bullied relentlessly regardless because of the association

Cek pls ;~;

That is fair - it wasn't technically communism, despite the name. I'll revise that to be attempts to implement communism.


Thanks <3

PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 7:50 pm
by Pasong Tirad
Benuty wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:I don't believe I know what a bioregionalist is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioregionalism

This might explain it somewhat, but you know wiki links can only go so far.

An argument can be made to call me some kind of regionalist or regionalism-leaning person in that I believe that local government units need to be smaller - commune sizes, if you will or its Philippine variant, the barangay - but I live in a pretty big island with like 50 million people living in it, I can hardly consider myself a bioregionalist, especially if it means the exclusion of areas of the Philippines that are already being pushed into the margins for ethnic and geographical reasons.

PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 11:11 pm
by Nyasira
What do you think is currently the most successful existing example of a leftist movement globally?


Out of those options, the Zapatistas. Though I don't think any of them are as successful compared to ML states, but I suppose at doesn't qualify as a 'movement'.

PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 11:14 pm
by Jack Thomas Lang
Bat'ko was a dunderhead who deserved what he got for helping the Bolshies. If it wasn't for Bat'ko sucking away AFSR troops when Denikin needed them most for the Moscow offensive, the White Army would have been parading in Moscow by 1919.

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 12:59 am
by The Xenopolis Confederation
Jack Thomas Lang wrote:Bat'ko was a dunderhead who deserved what he got for helping the Bolshies. If it wasn't for Bat'ko sucking away AFSR troops when Denikin needed them most for the Moscow offensive, the White Army would have been parading in Moscow by 1919.

Um... Isn't Bat'ko a YouTuber?

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 1:01 am
by Benuty
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Jack Thomas Lang wrote:Bat'ko was a dunderhead who deserved what he got for helping the Bolshies. If it wasn't for Bat'ko sucking away AFSR troops when Denikin needed them most for the Moscow offensive, the White Army would have been parading in Moscow by 1919.

Um... Isn't Bat'ko a YouTuber?

I looked it up, and it seems to be a reference to Nestor Makhno and a few others.

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 1:02 am
by Jack Thomas Lang
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Um... Isn't Bat'ko a YouTuber?

He is, and an Aussie to boot. But I'm talking about Nester Makhno, the Ukrainian anarchist. Bat'ko takes his name from Makhno.

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 1:31 am
by Crysuko
Jack Thomas Lang wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Um... Isn't Bat'ko a YouTuber?

He is, and an Aussie to boot. But I'm talking about Nester Makhno, the Ukrainian anarchist. Bat'ko takes his name from Makhno.

Makhno is my husbando. also, i'm entirely sure the free territory could have survived on it's own if trotsky hadn't fucked with it

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 1:36 am
by The Xenopolis Confederation
Crysuko wrote:
Jack Thomas Lang wrote:He is, and an Aussie to boot. But I'm talking about Nester Makhno, the Ukrainian anarchist. Bat'ko takes his name from Makhno.

Makhno is my husbando. also, i'm entirely sure the free territory could have survived on it's own if trotsky hadn't fucked with it

When a Communist makes fun of Trotsky it initiates a Pavlovian response from me.

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 1:37 am
by Crysuko
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Crysuko wrote:Makhno is my husbando. also, i'm entirely sure the free territory could have survived on it's own if trotsky hadn't fucked with it

When a Communist makes fun of Trotsky it initiates a Pavlovian response from me.

good thing i'm a syndicalist.

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 2:00 am
by Jack Thomas Lang
Crysuko wrote:Makhno is my husbando. also, i'm entirely sure the free territory could have survived on it's own if trotsky hadn't fucked with it

Sure, it would have survived on its own if the Bolsheviks allowed an anarchist enclave within their borders sitting on prime agricultural and industrial land. The Free Territory was doomed to fail and it helped take the Whites down with it.

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 5:31 am
by West Leas Oros 2
Crysuko wrote:
Jack Thomas Lang wrote:He is, and an Aussie to boot. But I'm talking about Nester Makhno, the Ukrainian anarchist. Bat'ko takes his name from Makhno.

Makhno is my husbando. also, i'm entirely sure the free territory could have survived on it's own if trotsky hadn't fucked with it

>Implying Trotsky fucking the free territory was a bad thing
*malicious trot noises*

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 6:22 am
by Dumb Ideologies
West Leas Oros 2 wrote:
Crysuko wrote:Makhno is my husbando. also, i'm entirely sure the free territory could have survived on it's own if trotsky hadn't fucked with it

>Implying Trotsky fucking the free territory was a bad thing
*malicious trot noises*


"Free Territory? I'll take it!"

Way I sees, they were sort of asking for it...

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 6:36 am
by Ostroeuropa
Reminder that anti-communist socialism was seen as basically normal for a long time and included figures like Betrand Russel, who said of Marx;

"In relation to any political doctrine there are two questions to be asked: (1) Are its theoretical tenets true? (2) Is its practical policy likely to increase human happiness? For my part, I think the theoretical tenets of Communism are false, and I think its practical maxims are such as to produce an immeasurable increase of human misery."

"The theoretical doctrines of Communism are for the most part derived from Marx. My objections to Marx are of two sorts: one, that he was muddle-headed; and the other, that his thinking was almost entirely inspired by hatred. The doctrine of surplus value, which is supposed to demonstrate the exploitation of wage-earners under capitalism, is arrived at: (a) by surreptitiously accepting Malthus’s doctrine of population, which Marx and all his disciples explicitly repudiate; (b) by applying Ricardo’s theory of value to wages, but not to the prices of manufactured articles. He is entirely satisfied with the result, not because it is in accordance with the facts or because it is logically coherent, but because it is calculated to rouse fury in wage-earners. Marx’s doctrine that all historical events have been motivated by class conflicts is a rash and untrue extension to world history of certain features prominent in England and France a hundred years ago. His belief that there is a cosmic force called Dialectical Materialism which governs human history independently of human volitions, is mere mythology. His theoretical errors, however, would not have mattered so much but for the fact that, like Tertullian and Carlyle, his chief desire was to see his enemies punished, and he cared little what happened to his friends in the process."


And of Lenin;
"He seemed to be a reincarnation of Cromwell, with all the same limitations: absolute orthodoxy. He thought a proposition could be proved by quoting Marx. And he was incapable of supposing that there was anything in Marx that wasn't right"


Yet supported workplace democracy, short working hours, and was critical of capitalism, noting;
"Advocates of capitalism are very apt to appeal to the sacred principles of liberty, which are embodied in one maxim: The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate."

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 6:58 am
by The Xenopolis Confederation
West Leas Oros 2 wrote:
Crysuko wrote:Makhno is my husbando. also, i'm entirely sure the free territory could have survived on it's own if trotsky hadn't fucked with it

>Implying Trotsky fucking the free territory was a bad thing
*malicious trot noises*

I'm kind of lost. What was the free territory, and why did Trotsky have sex with it?

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 7:01 am
by Nakena
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
West Leas Oros 2 wrote:>Implying Trotsky fucking the free territory was a bad thing
*malicious trot noises*

I'm kind of lost. What was the free territory, and why did Trotsky have sex with it?


Here you go

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 7:41 am
by Crysuko
West Leas Oros 2 wrote:
Crysuko wrote:Makhno is my husbando. also, i'm entirely sure the free territory could have survived on it's own if trotsky hadn't fucked with it

>Implying Trotsky fucking the free territory was a bad thing
*malicious trot noises*

I'd consider fighting you but you'd split before I got there :^)

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 7:49 am
by West Leas Oros 2
Crysuko wrote:
West Leas Oros 2 wrote:>Implying Trotsky fucking the free territory was a bad thing
*malicious trot noises*

I'd consider fighting you but you'd split before I got there :^)

Where’s the Seinfeld bass when you need it?

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 8:15 am
by Ostroeuropa
Dutch minister for migration has resigned following it emerging that he covered up the extent of rapes and murders committed by migrants, sweeping those crimes under "Other" in his report on migrant crime.

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 8:17 am
by Nakena
Ostroeuropa wrote:Dutch minister for migration has resigned following it emerging that he covered up the extent of rapes and murders committed by migrants, sweeping those crimes under "Other" in his report on migrant crime.


Sounds spicy.

Sauce me up.

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 8:18 am
by Ostroeuropa
Nakena wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:Dutch minister for migration has resigned following it emerging that he covered up the extent of rapes and murders committed by migrants, sweeping those crimes under "Other" in his report on migrant crime.


Sounds spicy.

Sauce me up.


https://www.google.com/search?q=dutch+m ... 66&bih=625

"Shame to lose such a Talented Liberal"

lol