NATION

PASSWORD

LWDT 7: The Earth and Heavens Tremble.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Which Book on Leftist Ideology is Your Preferred Book?

The Communist Manifesto (Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels)
23
18%
The Conquest of Bread (Peter Kropotkin)
24
19%
Das Kapital (Karl Marx)
21
16%
What is Property? (Pierre-Joseph Proudhon)
2
2%
Guerilla Warfare (Che Guevara)
8
6%
Mutual Aid (Peter Kropotkin)
2
2%
Profit Over People (Noam Chomsky)
4
3%
The Ego and Its Own (Max Stirner)
8
6%
Debt: The First 5,000 Years (David Graeber)
5
4%
Other (Please Explain)
32
25%
 
Total votes : 129

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Kowani
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Posts: 16474
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Wed May 15, 2019 9:09 pm

Joohan wrote:
Kowani wrote:And yet they (and every other believer in a dead religion) believed their commandments to be eternal. What makes you think yours will be any different?


Because it's been around since practically the start of civilization and has weathered a minimum of 3,500 years of history - shaping the very core concepts of how our society views the world and interacts with it.

What makes it different is that it's not some competing cult ( or ideology for that matter ) - it won the whole damn competition.

Edit: The Abrahamic faith existed since around the middle kingdom of ancient Egypt - Just think of everything that's happened since then, and it's still here.

While pointing out the fact that it’s on the decline, and it only won the competition because it’s adherents broke the rules.
Narcissistic (Hedonistic) Nihilist. Yes, I am edgy. I know.
Atheist and still proud of it. Spanish Expat.
Post-Capitalist, Post-Nationalist.
Rights are functionally just privileges society has deemed important.
Prydania wrote:
As a Canadian? I find Americans and their deep, deep distrust of the government to be fundamentally, critically, laughably flawed. I find some aspects of your country completely absurd. The distrust of anything remotely resembling authority is one. The gun problem that stems from that is another.

Seangoli wrote:You are spouting nonsensical drivel with no coherent thought, little logic, and at the end of it all just angry opining at the clouds based on a truly astonishly low level of knowledge or understanding of the subject matter.

0% Capitalism

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Joohan
Minister
 
Posts: 2382
Founded: Jan 11, 2018
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Joohan » Wed May 15, 2019 9:17 pm

Duhon wrote:Ignoring the duration of Christendom or even Judaism for the time being (except to note that Judaism couldn't have been older than the general collapse or weakening of various Bronze Age polities around eastern Europe and the Middle East around 1100 BC), loyalty to apparently everlasting and divinely appointed institutions is... good and all, but they cannot provide for life on earth. They simply have not been capable of that. So long as heaven is viewed as an escape hatch for earthly miseries, so long as the only ecclesiastical response is an admonition to spiritual responsibility, it cannot be tenable for us who have to live here in the interim.


Judaism is thought by most historians ( religious and secular ) to be at least 3500 years old, likely older. It's been around since around the middle kingdom of Ancient Egypt.

What is more - loyalty to ideology cannot provide anything for life on Earth. It's in implementation of said ideas. In which case, there is about 3000 years of evidence saying that the Abrahamic faith ( counting Judaism which makes it 3000 years, the founding of the kingdom of Israel ), and the entire last 1500 years of European history that says it absolutely can provide for life on Earth.

The very point of the old and new testaments was how to live on the Earth: with love as the core tenate. Once the testaments were accepted by an individual, all those around them would prosper - Heaven is simply a by product of this enlightenment.

I believe it was the Greek Archdiosece that explained that Christianity is a material faith. Man was made in, and a part of the material world. Therefore, he should do all that he is able to provide for and support the world made for him by the Lord. Heaven is what occurs when we come into communion with God for our service.

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Joohan
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Posts: 2382
Founded: Jan 11, 2018
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Joohan » Wed May 15, 2019 9:22 pm

Kowani wrote:
Joohan wrote:
Because it's been around since practically the start of civilization and has weathered a minimum of 3,500 years of history - shaping the very core concepts of how our society views the world and interacts with it.

What makes it different is that it's not some competing cult ( or ideology for that matter ) - it won the whole damn competition.

Edit: The Abrahamic faith existed since around the middle kingdom of ancient Egypt - Just think of everything that's happened since then, and it's still here.

While pointing out the fact that it’s on the decline, and it only won the competition because it’s adherents broke the rules.


No it's not. The number of Christians is declining in Europe, on account of liberal materialism and low birth rates. The number of Christians across the globe though ( over 2.3 billion ) is still rising.

What rules?

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Kowani
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Posts: 16474
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Wed May 15, 2019 9:26 pm

Joohan wrote:
Kowani wrote:While pointing out the fact that it’s on the decline, and it only won the competition because it’s adherents broke the rules.


No it's not. The number of Christians is declining in Europe, on account of liberal materialism and low birth rates. The number of Christians across the globe though ( over 2.3 billion ) is still rising.

What rules?

The number of long term Christians in the US is dropping as well-the youth are less religious than ever before, and the most religious people are dying off. As for the rising numbers, you don’t think liberal materialism will come to Africa? ‘Cause if so, there’s a piece of architecture in NY for sale.

Oh, just the basic “don’t kill people,” the general “love your neighbor,” etc.
Narcissistic (Hedonistic) Nihilist. Yes, I am edgy. I know.
Atheist and still proud of it. Spanish Expat.
Post-Capitalist, Post-Nationalist.
Rights are functionally just privileges society has deemed important.
Prydania wrote:
As a Canadian? I find Americans and their deep, deep distrust of the government to be fundamentally, critically, laughably flawed. I find some aspects of your country completely absurd. The distrust of anything remotely resembling authority is one. The gun problem that stems from that is another.

Seangoli wrote:You are spouting nonsensical drivel with no coherent thought, little logic, and at the end of it all just angry opining at the clouds based on a truly astonishly low level of knowledge or understanding of the subject matter.

0% Capitalism

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Joohan
Minister
 
Posts: 2382
Founded: Jan 11, 2018
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Joohan » Wed May 15, 2019 9:48 pm

Kowani wrote:
Joohan wrote:
No it's not. The number of Christians is declining in Europe, on account of liberal materialism and low birth rates. The number of Christians across the globe though ( over 2.3 billion ) is still rising.

What rules?

The number of long term Christians in the US is dropping as well-the youth are less religious than ever before, and the most religious people are dying off. As for the rising numbers, you don’t think liberal materialism will come to Africa? ‘Cause if so, there’s a piece of architecture in NY for sale.

Oh, just the basic “don’t kill people,” the general “love your neighbor,” etc.


I don't think liberal materialism will come to Africa, for a myriad reasons. Chief among them though, is that liberal materialism is something of distinct European origin, born from the enlightenment. It could be integrated into the system - as what has happened in parts of Asia, but never fully accepted like it has been in Europe or America. These trends, though sad, are not all that worrisome for me.

Our faith has been around since the first civilization and has survived everything that came after up until the present day. We've survived every rival faith, repressive empire, and antagonistic ideology for the last 3ish millennia. I'm not that worried.

There is a lot more nuance than that - but Christian society has abided by those rules for the most part. But, just remember, Jesus didn't ask the merchants to kindly leave the temple.

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Kowani
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Posts: 16474
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Wed May 15, 2019 9:57 pm

Joohan wrote:
Kowani wrote:The number of long term Christians in the US is dropping as well-the youth are less religious than ever before, and the most religious people are dying off. As for the rising numbers, you don’t think liberal materialism will come to Africa? ‘Cause if so, there’s a piece of architecture in NY for sale.

Oh, just the basic “don’t kill people,” the general “love your neighbor,” etc.


I don't think liberal materialism will come to Africa, for a myriad reasons. Chief among them though, is that liberal materialism is something of distinct European origin, born from the enlightenment. It could be integrated into the system - as what has happened in parts of Asia, but never fully accepted like it has been in Europe or America. These trends, though sad, are not all that worrisome for me.
Give it a century. Once you get past mass instability and poverty, along with lack of education? Yeah, no. You’ll see religion’s numbers drop. Enlightenment thinking has little to do with it, these trends are consistent with everywhere else.
Joohan wrote:Our faith has been around since the first civilization and has survived everything that came after up until the present day. We've survived every rival faith, repressive empire, and antagonistic ideology for the last 3ish millennia. I'm not that worried.
Said the Jews.
Joohan wrote:There is a lot more nuance than that - but Christian society has abided by those rules for the most part. But, just remember, Jesus didn't ask the merchants to kindly leave the temple.

Everyone who was forcibly converted or purged for heresy would like to disagree with you. The wars of Religion would like a word, while we’re here.
Narcissistic (Hedonistic) Nihilist. Yes, I am edgy. I know.
Atheist and still proud of it. Spanish Expat.
Post-Capitalist, Post-Nationalist.
Rights are functionally just privileges society has deemed important.
Prydania wrote:
As a Canadian? I find Americans and their deep, deep distrust of the government to be fundamentally, critically, laughably flawed. I find some aspects of your country completely absurd. The distrust of anything remotely resembling authority is one. The gun problem that stems from that is another.

Seangoli wrote:You are spouting nonsensical drivel with no coherent thought, little logic, and at the end of it all just angry opining at the clouds based on a truly astonishly low level of knowledge or understanding of the subject matter.

0% Capitalism

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Jack Thomas Lang
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Founded: Apr 18, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Jack Thomas Lang » Wed May 15, 2019 10:07 pm

Kowani wrote:Everyone who was forcibly converted or purged for heresy would like to disagree with you. The wars of Religion would like a word, while we’re here.

The wars of Religion are a bad example. In no way did the breaking up of Christianity into rival camps help Christianity. Likewise the violence and chaos unleashed by the wars of Religion led directly to the rise of Secularism and Absolutism, which provided some of the roots for the Enlightenment.
Catholic Distributist
Three Acres and a Cow

"In the race of life, always back self-interest — at least you know it's trying."
Rerum Novarum and Quadragesimo Anno

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Joohan
Minister
 
Posts: 2382
Founded: Jan 11, 2018
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Joohan » Wed May 15, 2019 10:08 pm

Kowani wrote:
Joohan wrote:
I don't think liberal materialism will come to Africa, for a myriad reasons. Chief among them though, is that liberal materialism is something of distinct European origin, born from the enlightenment. It could be integrated into the system - as what has happened in parts of Asia, but never fully accepted like it has been in Europe or America. These trends, though sad, are not all that worrisome for me.
Give it a century. Once you get past mass instability and poverty, along with lack of education? Yeah, no. You’ll see religion’s numbers drop. Enlightenment thinking has little to do with it, these trends are consistent with everywhere else.
Joohan wrote:Our faith has been around since the first civilization and has survived everything that came after up until the present day. We've survived every rival faith, repressive empire, and antagonistic ideology for the last 3ish millennia. I'm not that worried.
Said the Jews.
Joohan wrote:There is a lot more nuance than that - but Christian society has abided by those rules for the most part. But, just remember, Jesus didn't ask the merchants to kindly leave the temple.

Everyone who was forcibly converted or purged for heresy would like to disagree with you. The wars of Religion would like a word, while we’re here.


In a century liberal democracy will be a relic of a bygone age. Already tensions are growing against it in the western world, what with the rise of anti-global populists; and the economic model for which it is dependent upon is too ecologically unstable. Not to mention that it is completely reliant upon third world and developing world nations to house and maintain the industries which otherwise would never be allowed in a liberalsociety ( could you imagine if western consumerism were to be supplied by only it's own domestic industries? The amount of pollution would be intolerable to our otherwise privileged society ). Liberalism will fade by the end of the century, just as communism did at the end of the 20th century, and absolute monarchism did by the end of the 19th.

Im not sure what you mean by the 2nd point. Christianity came out of Judaism - thus our history is in tandem.

For the most part. We've existed as the dominant political force In Europe and the America's for the last 1500 years - of course we are going to mess up sometimes. Again, Christian society has been pretty straight about following the general rules until relativly recently.

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Kowani
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Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Wed May 15, 2019 10:09 pm

Jack Thomas Lang wrote:
Kowani wrote:Everyone who was forcibly converted or purged for heresy would like to disagree with you. The wars of Religion would like a word, while we’re here.

The wars of Religion are a bad example. In no way did the breaking up of Christianity into rival camps help Christianity. Likewise the violence and chaos unleashed by the wars of Religion led directly to the rise of Secularism and Absolutism, which provided some of the roots for the Enlightenment.

Oh, that wasn’t what I was trying to say with that example. That was merely to dispel the notion that “Christian society has abided by the rules for the most part.”
Narcissistic (Hedonistic) Nihilist. Yes, I am edgy. I know.
Atheist and still proud of it. Spanish Expat.
Post-Capitalist, Post-Nationalist.
Rights are functionally just privileges society has deemed important.
Prydania wrote:
As a Canadian? I find Americans and their deep, deep distrust of the government to be fundamentally, critically, laughably flawed. I find some aspects of your country completely absurd. The distrust of anything remotely resembling authority is one. The gun problem that stems from that is another.

Seangoli wrote:You are spouting nonsensical drivel with no coherent thought, little logic, and at the end of it all just angry opining at the clouds based on a truly astonishly low level of knowledge or understanding of the subject matter.

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Joohan
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Founded: Jan 11, 2018
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Joohan » Wed May 15, 2019 10:15 pm

Kowani wrote:
Jack Thomas Lang wrote:The wars of Religion are a bad example. In no way did the breaking up of Christianity into rival camps help Christianity. Likewise the violence and chaos unleashed by the wars of Religion led directly to the rise of Secularism and Absolutism, which provided some of the roots for the Enlightenment.

Oh, that wasn’t what I was trying to say with that example. That was merely to dispel the notion that “Christian society has abided by the rules for the most part.”


What do you mean it hasn't? Because states have from time to time waged unjust wars, doesn't mean that the common man or the Church was all in all ungodly throughout most of Christendom's history.

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Jack Thomas Lang
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Founded: Apr 18, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Jack Thomas Lang » Wed May 15, 2019 10:20 pm

Kowani wrote:Oh, that wasn’t what I was trying to say with that example. That was merely to dispel the notion that “Christian society has abided by the rules for the most part.”

It's a useless statement frankly. The history of Christianity is far too broad to say that Christian society mostly has or hasn't abided by the rules. Christian societies include small 'communes', empires, petty fiefdoms, kingdoms, nations, etc.
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Three Acres and a Cow

"In the race of life, always back self-interest — at least you know it's trying."
Rerum Novarum and Quadragesimo Anno

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Kowani
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Posts: 16474
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Wed May 15, 2019 10:25 pm

Joohan wrote:
Kowani wrote: Give it a century. Once you get past mass instability and poverty, along with lack of education? Yeah, no. You’ll see religion’s numbers drop. Enlightenment thinking has little to do with it, these trends are consistent with everywhere else.
Said the Jews.

Everyone who was forcibly converted or purged for heresy would like to disagree with you. The wars of Religion would like a word, while we’re here.

Joohan wrote:In a century liberal democracy will be a relic of a bygone age. Already tensions are growing against it in the western world, what with the rise of anti-global populists; and the economic model for which it is dependent upon is too ecologically unstable. Not to mention that it is completely reliant upon third world and developing world nations to house and maintain the industries which otherwise would never be allowed in a liberalsociety ( could you imagine if western consumerism were to be supplied by only it's own domestic industries? The amount of pollution would be intolerable to our otherwise privileged society ). Liberalism will fade by the end of the century, just as communism did at the end of the 20th century, and absolute monarchism did by the end of the 19th.
I don’t deny that it’ll undergo evolutions, but I doubt it’ll die. Most people aren’t inclined to give up their rights.
Joohan wrote:Im not sure what you mean by the 2nd point. Christianity came out of Judaism - thus our history is in tandem.
Yes, but you said “our faith.” To put that in perspective, it’s as if a Muslim has said the exact same thing. Just because it grew out of Judaism doesn’t make it as old as Judaism. And in terms of persecution, the only entity that could possibly have wiped out Christianity was the Roman Empire. That doesn’t mean that Christians weren’t persecuted, but the actual religion was never in danger.
Joohan wrote:For the most part. We've existed as the dominant political force In Europe and the America's for the last 1500 years - of course we are going to mess up sometimes. Again, Christian society has been pretty straight about following the general rules until relativly recently.

…Not really? Once Christians became the dominant power within Rome, they treated the pagans about the same way they had been. In the medieval era, it was the papacy and the constant search for heretics that plunged the Church into blood. In the Age of Empire, well.
The idea that Christianity won out because of the correctness of its doctrine is ahistorical. Heck, the idea that for the majority of its time, Christianity was peaceful isn’t entirely true, either.
Narcissistic (Hedonistic) Nihilist. Yes, I am edgy. I know.
Atheist and still proud of it. Spanish Expat.
Post-Capitalist, Post-Nationalist.
Rights are functionally just privileges society has deemed important.
Prydania wrote:
As a Canadian? I find Americans and their deep, deep distrust of the government to be fundamentally, critically, laughably flawed. I find some aspects of your country completely absurd. The distrust of anything remotely resembling authority is one. The gun problem that stems from that is another.

Seangoli wrote:You are spouting nonsensical drivel with no coherent thought, little logic, and at the end of it all just angry opining at the clouds based on a truly astonishly low level of knowledge or understanding of the subject matter.

0% Capitalism

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North German Realm
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Founded: Jan 27, 2019
Capitalist Paradise

Postby North German Realm » Wed May 15, 2019 10:28 pm

Kowani wrote:
Joohan wrote: I don’t deny that it’ll undergo evolutions, but I doubt it’ll die. Most people aren’t inclined to give up their rights.
Yes, but you said “our faith.” To put that in perspective, it’s as if a Muslim has said the exact same thing. Just because it grew out of Judaism doesn’t make it as old as Judaism. And in terms of persecution, the only entity that could possibly have wiped out Christianity was the Roman Empire. That doesn’t mean that Christians weren’t persecuted, but the actual religion was never in danger.

…Not really? Once Christians became the dominant power within Rome, they treated the pagans about the same way they had been. In the medieval era, it was the papacy and the constant search for heretics that plunged the Church into blood. In the Age of Empire, well.
The idea that Christianity won out because of the correctness of its doctrine is ahistorical. Heck, the idea that for the majority of its time, Christianity was peaceful isn’t entirely true, either.

Christianity was pretty much consistently violent (against other Christians and against non-Christians) anywhere it was in power. I mean, sure there was almost always a second, generally materialistic reason for that violence, but to say it wasn't consistently violent is a bit ahistorical.
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Joohan
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Founded: Jan 11, 2018
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Joohan » Wed May 15, 2019 10:33 pm

Kowani wrote:
Joohan wrote: I don’t deny that it’ll undergo evolutions, but I doubt it’ll die. Most people aren’t inclined to give up their rights.
Yes, but you said “our faith.” To put that in perspective, it’s as if a Muslim has said the exact same thing. Just because it grew out of Judaism doesn’t make it as old as Judaism. And in terms of persecution, the only entity that could possibly have wiped out Christianity was the Roman Empire. That doesn’t mean that Christians weren’t persecuted, but the actual religion was never in danger.

…Not really? Once Christians became the dominant power within Rome, they treated the pagans about the same way they had been. In the medieval era, it was the papacy and the constant search for heretics that plunged the Church into blood. In the Age of Empire, well.
The idea that Christianity won out because of the correctness of its doctrine is ahistorical. Heck, the idea that for the majority of its time, Christianity was peaceful isn’t entirely true, either.


... I don't think you're getting the point. You can point to all the instances of violence within the Christian world over the last 1500 years - but that doesn't prove anything. Pointing towards the extraordinary actions of a group like the peoples crusade is in no way indicative of how the common man or clergyman lived his life. The overhwhelming majority of the Christian world was more involved with paying their tithes, going on pilgramage, and attending mass, rather than burning witches or pogroms.

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Kowani
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Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Wed May 15, 2019 10:38 pm

Joohan wrote:
Kowani wrote:…Not really? Once Christians became the dominant power within Rome, they treated the pagans about the same way they had been. In the medieval era, it was the papacy and the constant search for heretics that plunged the Church into blood. In the Age of Empire, well.
The idea that Christianity won out because of the correctness of its doctrine is ahistorical. Heck, the idea that for the majority of its time, Christianity was peaceful isn’t entirely true, either.


... I don't think you're getting the point. You can point to all the instances of violence within the Christian world over the last 1500 years - but that doesn't prove anything. Pointing towards the extraordinary actions of a group like the peoples crusade is in no way indicative of how the common man or clergyman lived his life. The overhwhelming majority of the Christian world was more involved with paying their tithes, going on pilgramage, and attending mass, rather than burning witches or pogroms.

And the majority of Germans were busy paying taxes, going on vacation and listening to speeches, rather than working in the death camps.
Narcissistic (Hedonistic) Nihilist. Yes, I am edgy. I know.
Atheist and still proud of it. Spanish Expat.
Post-Capitalist, Post-Nationalist.
Rights are functionally just privileges society has deemed important.
Prydania wrote:
As a Canadian? I find Americans and their deep, deep distrust of the government to be fundamentally, critically, laughably flawed. I find some aspects of your country completely absurd. The distrust of anything remotely resembling authority is one. The gun problem that stems from that is another.

Seangoli wrote:You are spouting nonsensical drivel with no coherent thought, little logic, and at the end of it all just angry opining at the clouds based on a truly astonishly low level of knowledge or understanding of the subject matter.

0% Capitalism

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Jack Thomas Lang
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Ex-Nation

Postby Jack Thomas Lang » Wed May 15, 2019 10:38 pm

North German Realm wrote:Christianity was pretty much consistently violent (against other Christians and against non-Christians) anywhere it was in power. I mean, sure there was almost always a second, generally materialistic reason for that violence, but to say it wasn't consistently violent is a bit ahistorical.

Christianity is a religion, it cannot be violent to others in itself. You would do better to say that many Christian rulers were violent. Saying otherwise falsely implies that religion was the main cause of violence, when it is almost always secular in nature (albeit sometimes abetted by the Church). There are exceptions of course, the forced conversion of the Saxons by Charlemagne seems to be primarily religious in nature. The repression of the Cathars was also largely religious, however most violence was carried out by Northern Dukes intent on claiming large swathes of land.
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"In the race of life, always back self-interest — at least you know it's trying."
Rerum Novarum and Quadragesimo Anno

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Jack Thomas Lang
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Founded: Apr 18, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Jack Thomas Lang » Wed May 15, 2019 10:40 pm

Kowani wrote:And the majority of Germans were busy paying taxes, going on vacation and listening to speeches, rather than working in the death camps.

I get what you're doing, but comparing Christians to Nazis, really?

It's not even that good a comparison, since genocide was a core part of Nazi rule and ideology whereas the violence in medieval and renaissance Europe was mostly a byproduct of squabbling powers.
Catholic Distributist
Three Acres and a Cow

"In the race of life, always back self-interest — at least you know it's trying."
Rerum Novarum and Quadragesimo Anno

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Joohan
Minister
 
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Founded: Jan 11, 2018
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Joohan » Wed May 15, 2019 10:42 pm

Kowani wrote:
Joohan wrote:
... I don't think you're getting the point. You can point to all the instances of violence within the Christian world over the last 1500 years - but that doesn't prove anything. Pointing towards the extraordinary actions of a group like the peoples crusade is in no way indicative of how the common man or clergyman lived his life. The overhwhelming majority of the Christian world was more involved with paying their tithes, going on pilgramage, and attending mass, rather than burning witches or pogroms.

And the majority of Germans were busy paying taxes, going on vacation and listening to speeches, rather than working in the death camps.


… Are you trying to claim that Germans are a genocidal people because of the deeds of an extremist minority? Because Nazis were a thing, Germans are, on the whole, warmongering despots?

Is that the hill you wanna die on?

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Kowani
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Wed May 15, 2019 10:43 pm

Jack Thomas Lang wrote:
Kowani wrote:And the majority of Germans were busy paying taxes, going on vacation and listening to speeches, rather than working in the death camps.

I get what you're doing, but comparing Christians to Nazis, really?

It's not even that good a comparison, since genocide was a core part of Nazi rule and ideology whereas the violence in medieval and renaissance Europe was mostly a byproduct of squabbling powers.

Only parts of it. The attacks on the Hussites was very much a religious thing, as was the repression of (going even farther back) Arians and Gnostics. Now, it is true that the situations are not quite the same, since, as you said, core part of Nazi rule. But that was my original point, that Christianity won because often, its followers broke its own rules.
Narcissistic (Hedonistic) Nihilist. Yes, I am edgy. I know.
Atheist and still proud of it. Spanish Expat.
Post-Capitalist, Post-Nationalist.
Rights are functionally just privileges society has deemed important.
Prydania wrote:
As a Canadian? I find Americans and their deep, deep distrust of the government to be fundamentally, critically, laughably flawed. I find some aspects of your country completely absurd. The distrust of anything remotely resembling authority is one. The gun problem that stems from that is another.

Seangoli wrote:You are spouting nonsensical drivel with no coherent thought, little logic, and at the end of it all just angry opining at the clouds based on a truly astonishly low level of knowledge or understanding of the subject matter.

0% Capitalism

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Joohan
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Founded: Jan 11, 2018
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Joohan » Wed May 15, 2019 10:46 pm

Kowani wrote:
Jack Thomas Lang wrote:I get what you're doing, but comparing Christians to Nazis, really?

It's not even that good a comparison, since genocide was a core part of Nazi rule and ideology whereas the violence in medieval and renaissance Europe was mostly a byproduct of squabbling powers.

Only parts of it. The attacks on the Hussites was very much a religious thing, as was the repression of (going even farther back) Arians and Gnostics. Now, it is true that the situations are not quite the same, since, as you said, core part of Nazi rule. But that was my original point, that Christianity won because often, its followers broke its own rules.


War is permissible in Christianity, assuming that it can meet perquisites of the Just War Theory. That Christian states have fought in wars before does not mean that they have necessarily sinned and or broken God's laws.


Regardless though, that was not the point being made to begin with.

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North German Realm
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Founded: Jan 27, 2019
Capitalist Paradise

Postby North German Realm » Wed May 15, 2019 10:48 pm

Jack Thomas Lang wrote:
North German Realm wrote:Christianity was pretty much consistently violent (against other Christians and against non-Christians) anywhere it was in power. I mean, sure there was almost always a second, generally materialistic reason for that violence, but to say it wasn't consistently violent is a bit ahistorical.

Christianity is a religion, it cannot be violent to others in itself. You would do better to say that many Christian rulers were violent. Saying otherwise falsely implies that religion was the main cause of violence, when it is almost always secular in nature (albeit sometimes abetted by the Church). There are exceptions of course, the forced conversion of the Saxons by Charlemagne seems to be primarily religious in nature. The repression of the Cathars was also largely religious, however most violence was carried out by Northern Dukes intent on claiming large swathes of land.

I understand what you're trying to say, but I'm of no habit to blame the religious rather than the religion for consistent violence. And I did mention a great deal of the acts of violence did have secondary (often materialistic) reasons, but that doesn't take the blame away from the religious and their religion. At least in my personal opinion.
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Jack Thomas Lang
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Founded: Apr 18, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Jack Thomas Lang » Wed May 15, 2019 10:50 pm

Kowani wrote:Only parts of it. The attacks on the Hussites was very much a religious thing, as was the repression of (going even farther back) Arians and Gnostics. Now, it is true that the situations are not quite the same, since, as you said, core part of Nazi rule. But that was my original point, that Christianity won because often, its followers broke its own rules.

The execution of Jan Hus was because his preaching threatened the power of the Church and kings of Bohemia, the attacks on the Hussites occurred because they revolted and started expelling Catholics. Sure, the conflict was religious in nature, but the fighting occurred for much more prosaic reasons.
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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Wed May 15, 2019 10:50 pm

Joohan wrote:
Kowani wrote:And the majority of Germans were busy paying taxes, going on vacation and listening to speeches, rather than working in the death camps.


… Are you trying to claim that Germans are a genocidal people because of the deeds of an extremist minority? Because Nazis were a thing, Germans are, on the whole, warmongering despots?

Is that the hill you wanna die on?

Did I say that either group is that today?

Joohan wrote:
Kowani wrote:Only parts of it. The attacks on the Hussites was very much a religious thing, as was the repression of (going even farther back) Arians and Gnostics. Now, it is true that the situations are not quite the same, since, as you said, core part of Nazi rule. But that was my original point, that Christianity won because often, its followers broke its own rules.


War is permissible in Christianity, assuming that it can meet perquisites of the Just War Theory. That Christian states have fought in wars before does not mean that they have necessarily sinned and or broken God's laws.
How many “Just Wars” have there been? The first Crusade? WWII? Conquering the Aztecs? Pushback of the Mongols? Wow, 4.

Joohan wrote:Regardless though, that was not the point being made to begin with.

Kowani wrote:While pointing out the fact that it’s on the decline, and it only won the competition because it’s adherents broke the rules.
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Jack Thomas Lang
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Founded: Apr 18, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Jack Thomas Lang » Wed May 15, 2019 11:00 pm

North German Realm wrote:I understand what you're trying to say, but I'm of no habit to blame the religious rather than the religion for consistent violence. And I did mention a great deal of the acts of violence did have secondary (often materialistic) reasons, but that doesn't take the blame away from the religious and their religion. At least in my personal opinion.

I understand, but disagree. Secular materialistic reasons are not secondary, they're integral to why acts of violence happen. After all, violence occurs in societies of all kinds of religion or disbelief. By blaming religion first, you are forced to the nonsensical conclusion that all violence is from religious belief (or lack of it), otherwise you're applying a non-consistent standard that can pick and choose whatever things you don't like.

Ultimately, I think material reasons that apply regardless of religion (such as power struggles, conflict over resources, etc) are a much better culprit than vague qualities attributed to a single religion.
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Joohan
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Postby Joohan » Wed May 15, 2019 11:02 pm

Kowani wrote:
Joohan wrote:
… Are you trying to claim that Germans are a genocidal people because of the deeds of an extremist minority? Because Nazis were a thing, Germans are, on the whole, warmongering despots?

Is that the hill you wanna die on?

Did I say that either group is that today?

Joohan wrote:
War is permissible in Christianity, assuming that it can meet perquisites of the Just War Theory. That Christian states have fought in wars before does not mean that they have necessarily sinned and or broken God's laws.
How many “Just Wars” have there been? The first Crusade? WWII? Conquering the Aztecs? Pushback of the Mongols? Wow, 4.

Joohan wrote:Regardless though, that was not the point being made to begin with.

Kowani wrote:While pointing out the fact that it’s on the decline, and it only won the competition because it’s adherents broke the rules.


You compared the history of Christendom to Nazis in Germany.

I don't know how many just wars there have been - I've not kept a list. But hundreds wouldn't be an understatement. From the Romans defense against the Huns, the Briton's war against Viking invasions, or the Great Turkish war. There have been hundreds of wars which could, and have fallen under the just war theory.

And the point being made was that Christianity had won the game - they were the faith which molded the modern world.
Last edited by Joohan on Wed May 15, 2019 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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