LWDT 7: The Earth and Heavens Tremble.

[Ostroeuropa]

Drop the oppessor-oppressed critical theory shite and take on board their demographic issues as well as their class issues.

Except that the oppressor oppressed dynamic is necessary to to tackle class issues...?

Not really.

Not inherently.

Except that the dynamic was literally created to describe class struggle.

Doesn't mean it's necessary.

Except that the oppressor oppressed dynamic is necessary to to tackle class issues...?

Not inherently.

This.

[West Leas Oros 2]

Except that the oppressor oppressed dynamic is necessary to to tackle class issues...?

Not really.

Except that the dynamic was literally created to describe class struggle.

Doesn't mean it's necessary.

Not inherently.

This.

Alright. Care to explain your reasoning as to why?

[Washington Resistance Army]

Not inherently.

Except that the dynamic was literally created to describe class struggle.

Yeah, over a hundred years ago. Social dynamics change. You can still point out the flaws and problems with various class issues without needing to stick to a specific and rather archaic framework of oppressed-oppressor because reality is oftentimes more complicated than that.

[Ostroeuropa]

Not really.



Doesn't mean it's necessary.



This.

Alright. Care to explain your reasoning as to why?

You don't need to make people villains or commit epistemic injustices against their contributions.

[West Leas Oros 2]

Except that the dynamic was literally created to describe class struggle.

Yeah, over a hundred years ago. Social dynamics change. You can still point out the flaws and problems with various class issues without needing to stick to a specific and rather archaic framework of oppressed-oppressor because reality is oftentimes more complicated than that.

Well ok then. I'll admit the dynamic is a bit outdated. But what do you propose?

[West Leas Oros 2]

Alright. Care to explain your reasoning as to why?

You don't need to make people villains or commit epistemic injustices against their contributions.

That's not an inherent part of the dynamic though? Just because it was usurped by lunatics doesn't mean it's not without merit.

[Ostroeuropa]

Yeah, over a hundred years ago. Social dynamics change. You can still point out the flaws and problems with various class issues without needing to stick to a specific and rather archaic framework of oppressed-oppressor because reality is oftentimes more complicated than that.

Well ok then. I'll admit the dynamic is a bit outdated. But what do you propose?

Note other systems are more efficient on a societal level and have more benefits for more people.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Yeah, over a hundred years ago. Social dynamics change. You can still point out the flaws and problems with various class issues without needing to stick to a specific and rather archaic framework of oppressed-oppressor because reality is oftentimes more complicated than that.

Well ok then. I'll admit the dynamic is a bit outdated. But what do you propose?

Well, that would depend entirely on the specific issues and problems in question. I personally find it best not to try and paint with broad strokes and instead look at things individually when possible.

[West Leas Oros 2]

Well ok then. I'll admit the dynamic is a bit outdated. But what do you propose?

Note other systems are more efficient on a societal level and have more benefits for more people.

And what are these systems? Stop beating around the bush.

[Ostroeuropa]

Note other systems are more efficient on a societal level and have more benefits for more people.

And what are these systems? Stop beating around the bush.

Market socialism.

[West Leas Oros 2]

And what are these systems? Stop beating around the bush.

Market socialism.

I can accept that as a legitimate idea. It would be a lot easier to go from capitalism to market socialism, and overall works great as a transition period.

[Ostroeuropa]

Market socialism.

I can accept that as a legitimate idea. It would be a lot easier to go from capitalism to market socialism, and overall works great as a transition period.

I don't see a need to transition beyond it, but who knows, maybe once living in that system flaws will materialize.

[West Leas Oros 2]

I can accept that as a legitimate idea. It would be a lot easier to go from capitalism to market socialism, and overall works great as a transition period.

I don't see a need to transition beyond it, but who knows, maybe once living in that system flaws will materialize.

Certainly. And of course, i'm viewing this from the standpoint of dialectics. The end goal being "true communism", but market socialism is a very solid system.

[Ostroeuropa]

I don't see a need to transition beyond it, but who knows, maybe once living in that system flaws will materialize.

Certainly. And of course, i'm viewing this from the standpoint of dialectics. The end goal being "true communism", but market socialism is a very solid system.

I support market socialism with social democracy to protect various unemployed groups, and a few nationalized industries free at the point of use like education, healthcare, and so on.

Basically; "This, but market socialism.".

[Joohan]

Federated Balkan Union that kicks Turkey from Europe yay or nay?

EU with a less frankly authoritarian eastern Europe, Putin-less Russia, and Turkey minus Erdogan in, yay.

Yes - a return to christendom!

[Joohan]

He was cool though.

But 3rd Positionist? Nah.

Wasn't he pretty incompetent and didn't he violently suppress his opposition in the Shanghai massacre?

He was an extremely competent leader with relatively few resources and a LOOOOT of stressors. He the point of him taking power up until 1949, he would be in pretty much constant warfare against warlords, communists, the Japanese, and internal conspiracies. It was only after 20 years of endless fighting ( and essentially carrying China throughout the entire 2nd world war ) that he was finally semi-defeated in 1949 by the communists.

Yes he violently suppressed his opposition. China's civil war was like the American civil war only 10 times worse, lasting thirty years instead of four ( with a an extra little world war near the end just to spice things up ), and with like six different sides at any given time.

Lot of different faces to 3rd position - but he fit the mold as a nationalist who sympathized with collectivist economics.

[Cekoviu]

Like you?

You're a fucking social democrat and yet i'm not a "real leftist"?

I never said that I was...

[Duhon]

EU with a less frankly authoritarian eastern Europe, Putin-less Russia, and Turkey minus Erdogan in, yay.

Yes - a return to christendom!

I could care less for people's faiths, frankly -- what is important is a healthy regard for democracy and human rights. Those are more essential than the gods you worship, at the end of the day.

[Cekoviu]

EU with a less frankly authoritarian eastern Europe, Putin-less Russia, and Turkey minus Erdogan in, yay.

Yes - a return to christendom!

[Albania and Bosnia have left the chat]

[Joohan]

Yes - a return to christendom!

I could care less for people's faiths, frankly -- what is important is a healthy regard for democracy and human rights. Those are more essential than the gods you worship, at the end of the day.

The ideas and institutions of man will fade, but God will not. I could care less about someone's regarding of liberalism, what is important is that each person keeps the lord in their lives daily.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

I could care less for people's faiths, frankly -- what is important is a healthy regard for democracy and human rights. Those are more essential than the gods you worship, at the end of the day.

The ideas and institutions of man will fade, but God will not. I could care less about someone's regarding of liberalism, what is important is that each person keeps the lord in their lives daily.

What if they don't want to?

[Joohan]

Yes - a return to christendom!

[Albania and Bosnia have left the chat]

Don't you mean S U P E R - S E R B I A ? ?

[Duhon]

I could care less for people's faiths, frankly -- what is important is a healthy regard for democracy and human rights. Those are more essential than the gods you worship, at the end of the day.

The ideas and institutions of man will fade, but God will not. I could care less about someone's regarding of liberalism, what is important is that each person keeps the lord in their lives daily.

What Cekoviu said. Also, what of the Lord in one's daily prayers if human ideas and human instituions intensify rather than ameliorate his daily sufferings?

[Joohan]

The ideas and institutions of man will fade, but God will not. I could care less about someone's regarding of liberalism, what is important is that each person keeps the lord in their lives daily.

What if they don't want to?

Help them. If they chose to be beyond help though, their apathy should in no way affect how society conducts itself.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

What if they don't want to?

Help them. If they chose to be beyond help though, their apathy should in no way affect how society conducts itself.

If they choose to be "beyond help" should they be left alone or helped by force?