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LWDT 7: The Earth and Heavens Tremble.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Which Book on Leftist Ideology is Your Preferred Book?

The Communist Manifesto (Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels)
23
18%
The Conquest of Bread (Peter Kropotkin)
24
19%
Das Kapital (Karl Marx)
21
16%
What is Property? (Pierre-Joseph Proudhon)
2
2%
Guerilla Warfare (Che Guevara)
8
6%
Mutual Aid (Peter Kropotkin)
2
2%
Profit Over People (Noam Chomsky)
4
3%
The Ego and Its Own (Max Stirner)
8
6%
Debt: The First 5,000 Years (David Graeber)
5
4%
Other (Please Explain)
32
25%
 
Total votes : 129

User avatar
Proctopeo
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9954
Founded: Sep 26, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Proctopeo » Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:58 pm

Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Is it because they're too extreme on their free marketism?

It's because their ideology is pointless. "Muh Freedom"

But why freedom?

Well, why not freedom?
Center-right libertarian LockeabooEconomic: 5.25
Meme addict :^)Social: -3.74
Manga is literatureWill probably retake once every month or so, last updated 3/8/2019
RIP Balk
Crockerland wrote:Yes, we are aware, the Israelis protect their civilians with weapons while the Palestinians protect their weapons with civilians.

User avatar
Jean-Paul Sartre
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1617
Founded: Jun 26, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Jean-Paul Sartre » Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:58 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:It's because their ideology is pointless. "Muh Freedom"

But why freedom?

Because freedom is good, and very important. Without freedom, people get hurt.

With freedom, people get hurt.
Luddite, Doomer, Atheist, Meritocratic Elitist
Politicscales
American exceptionalism, secularism, education, meritocracy in government, the electoral college, elitism, hierarchy, progressive income tax, universal health care, strong borders, GSRM rights, Stoicism, Existentialism
Islam, religion in general, the current state of American democracy, democracy without significant regulation, the free market, the popular vote for president, violence, revolution, hedonism, post-modernism
Unrustle your jimmies

User avatar
Kowani
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16520
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:58 pm

Cappuccina wrote:
Kowani wrote:Freedom is of no inherent value.

I... actually... agree. :blink:

What kind of twisted world is this?
Narcissistic (Hedonistic) Nihilist. Yes, I am edgy. I know.
Atheist and still proud of it. Spanish Expat.
Post-Capitalist, Post-Nationalist.
Rights are functionally just privileges society has deemed important.
Prydania wrote:
As a Canadian? I find Americans and their deep, deep distrust of the government to be fundamentally, critically, laughably flawed. I find some aspects of your country completely absurd. The distrust of anything remotely resembling authority is one. The gun problem that stems from that is another.

Seangoli wrote:You are spouting nonsensical drivel with no coherent thought, little logic, and at the end of it all just angry opining at the clouds based on a truly astonishly low level of knowledge or understanding of the subject matter.

0% Capitalism

User avatar
LiberNovusAmericae
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5732
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:58 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:It's because their ideology is pointless. "Muh Freedom"

But why freedom?

Because freedom is good, and very important. Without freedom, people get hurt.

Freedom allows people to protest against abuse of power. Without a certain amount of freedom, the police can abuse you or kill you without consequences.
Nova Cyberia wrote:Thank you. I appreciate your respect for my low opinion of you.
Call me Liber for short.
Not to be confused with Novus America. We are different people with very different political opinions.

User avatar
LiberNovusAmericae
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5732
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:59 pm

Kowani wrote:
Cappuccina wrote:I... actually... agree. :blink:

What kind of twisted world is this?

Sometimes, even political enemies will agree on one thing.
Nova Cyberia wrote:Thank you. I appreciate your respect for my low opinion of you.
Call me Liber for short.
Not to be confused with Novus America. We are different people with very different political opinions.

User avatar
Cappuccina
Minister
 
Posts: 2255
Founded: Jun 05, 2018
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Cappuccina » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:00 pm

Kowani wrote:
Cappuccina wrote:I... actually... agree. :blink:

What kind of twisted world is this?

I think the horseshoe has activated!
Muslim, Female, Not white..... oppression points x3!!!!
Automobile fan!!! ^_^
Left/Right: -5.25
SocLib/Auth: 2.46

وحاربهم حتى لم يعد هناك فتنة ، والعبادة ستكون كلها لله وحده.

User avatar
Jean-Paul Sartre
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1617
Founded: Jun 26, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Jean-Paul Sartre » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:00 pm

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Because freedom is good, and very important. Without freedom, people get hurt.

Freedom allows people to protest against abuse of power. Without a certain amount of freedom, the police can abuse you or kill you without consequences.

With freedom, people can still abuse you. Happens all the time to gay people and blacks here in the states.
Luddite, Doomer, Atheist, Meritocratic Elitist
Politicscales
American exceptionalism, secularism, education, meritocracy in government, the electoral college, elitism, hierarchy, progressive income tax, universal health care, strong borders, GSRM rights, Stoicism, Existentialism
Islam, religion in general, the current state of American democracy, democracy without significant regulation, the free market, the popular vote for president, violence, revolution, hedonism, post-modernism
Unrustle your jimmies

User avatar
Kowani
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16520
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:01 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Because freedom is good, and very important. Without freedom, people get hurt.

authoritarians: but why is getting hurt bad tho

Well, physical and mental well-being is the greatest way to measure a life. Freedom is only of any value when contributing to that end.
Narcissistic (Hedonistic) Nihilist. Yes, I am edgy. I know.
Atheist and still proud of it. Spanish Expat.
Post-Capitalist, Post-Nationalist.
Rights are functionally just privileges society has deemed important.
Prydania wrote:
As a Canadian? I find Americans and their deep, deep distrust of the government to be fundamentally, critically, laughably flawed. I find some aspects of your country completely absurd. The distrust of anything remotely resembling authority is one. The gun problem that stems from that is another.

Seangoli wrote:You are spouting nonsensical drivel with no coherent thought, little logic, and at the end of it all just angry opining at the clouds based on a truly astonishly low level of knowledge or understanding of the subject matter.

0% Capitalism

User avatar
The Xenopolis Confederation
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7788
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:01 pm

Electic wrote:I encountered Orwell in middle school as well, though that led me down the Ayn Rand path. Now that was a phase :P Would you say you're still libertarian?

How did you get from Orwell to Rand?

I'm still a libertarian, but I'd say I'm no longer a right-wing libertarian. I'm more of a centrist economically these days.
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Psychedelic Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0.5
Social: -8
I'm an 18 year old Australian who tries to think about things but fails, as we all do. I'll regret this in 2 years tops.

I think I have gender dysphoria so I'd prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

User avatar
Kowani
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16520
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:02 pm

Cappuccina wrote:
Kowani wrote:What kind of twisted world is this?

I think the horseshoe has activated!

Hmm…Nah.



The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Electic wrote:I encountered Orwell in middle school as well, though that led me down the Ayn Rand path. Now that was a phase :P Would you say you're still libertarian?

How did you get from Orwell to Rand?

I'm still a libertarian, but I'd say I'm no longer a right-wing libertarian. I'm more of a centrist economically these days.

As much as I’ve tried, I couldn’t bring you over to the left. Sad.
Narcissistic (Hedonistic) Nihilist. Yes, I am edgy. I know.
Atheist and still proud of it. Spanish Expat.
Post-Capitalist, Post-Nationalist.
Rights are functionally just privileges society has deemed important.
Prydania wrote:
As a Canadian? I find Americans and their deep, deep distrust of the government to be fundamentally, critically, laughably flawed. I find some aspects of your country completely absurd. The distrust of anything remotely resembling authority is one. The gun problem that stems from that is another.

Seangoli wrote:You are spouting nonsensical drivel with no coherent thought, little logic, and at the end of it all just angry opining at the clouds based on a truly astonishly low level of knowledge or understanding of the subject matter.

0% Capitalism

User avatar
The Xenopolis Confederation
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7788
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:02 pm

Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Because freedom is good, and very important. Without freedom, people get hurt.

With freedom, people get hurt.

Except that's inherently untrue. If you are being directly hurt by another person, that person is violating your freedom. The opposite of freedom is essentially force, and all force is predicated upon violence.
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Psychedelic Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0.5
Social: -8
I'm an 18 year old Australian who tries to think about things but fails, as we all do. I'll regret this in 2 years tops.

I think I have gender dysphoria so I'd prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

User avatar
LiberNovusAmericae
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5732
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:03 pm

Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Freedom allows people to protest against abuse of power. Without a certain amount of freedom, the police can abuse you or kill you without consequences.

With freedom, people can still abuse you. Happens all the time to gay people and blacks here in the states.

Unfortunately. At least with freedom, they can highlight the fact that some people are scumbags and propose solutions.
Last edited by LiberNovusAmericae on Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nova Cyberia wrote:Thank you. I appreciate your respect for my low opinion of you.
Call me Liber for short.
Not to be confused with Novus America. We are different people with very different political opinions.

User avatar
Pacomia
Senator
 
Posts: 4467
Founded: May 23, 2019
Democratic Socialists

Postby Pacomia » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:03 pm

I like freedom. It’s a good thing. I like socialism. It’s a good thing, in small amounts, and with a few drops of free enterprise mixed in. Enter libertarian socialism.
This nation is based on (a slightly more extreme version of) my IRL opinions, and I answer issues accordingly.
Current accidental policies: No Sex
Results of political various tests I took meme awesome
Liriena wrote:anyone to the left of Pinochet: *exists*

right-wingers: wat about vuvuzelaaa lmao gottem
Both the far left and far right are equally insane.
GLORY TO CASCADIA I’m a socialist. it’s different from communism. NUCLEAR ENERGY IS A GOOD THING!
CURRENT HDI: 0.87547 (similar to Malta)
Also known as Dollar Store Kowani_________#EternalLotharia2020

User avatar
Cekoviu
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11274
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cekoviu » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:04 pm

Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Because freedom is good, and very important. Without freedom, people get hurt.

With freedom, people get hurt.

The scale is different, though, and there are more checks on the hurt that is caused with a freer society.
Consider a website with 499 normal users and one administrator who holds the ability to ban users and modify the website. If that administrator goes rogue, nothing can be done to stop them.
However, if the website has 450 normal users and 50 higher-ranking people who share powers among themselves and can be recalled by the users, a single rogue administrator can be easily dealt with because their power is checked by the users and other administrators. Sure, it takes more time and work to manage this system, but it massively decreases the risk of the website being ruined.
Fun fact: the total insect biomass is estimated to decrease by 2.5% each year. If left unresolved, this could have catastrophic effects on ecosystems around the world.
Torrocca wrote:"Your honor, it was not mein fault! I didn't order the systematic genocide of millions of people, it was the twenty kilograms of pure-cut Bavarian cocaine that did it!"
Liriena wrote:anyone to the left of Pinochet: *exists*

right-wingers: wat about vuvuzelaaa lmao gottem

User avatar
The Xenopolis Confederation
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7788
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:04 pm

Kowani wrote:As much as I’ve tried, I couldn’t bring you over to the left. Sad.

Don't give up hope yet. There's still time.
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Psychedelic Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0.5
Social: -8
I'm an 18 year old Australian who tries to think about things but fails, as we all do. I'll regret this in 2 years tops.

I think I have gender dysphoria so I'd prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

User avatar
Jean-Paul Sartre
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1617
Founded: Jun 26, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Jean-Paul Sartre » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:04 pm

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:With freedom, people can still abuse you. Happens all the time to gay people and blacks here in the states.

Unfortunately. At least with freedom, they can highlight the fact that some people are scumbags and propose solutions.

Boy golly, I sure am glad I can say, "you're a bitch!" That fixes everything!
Luddite, Doomer, Atheist, Meritocratic Elitist
Politicscales
American exceptionalism, secularism, education, meritocracy in government, the electoral college, elitism, hierarchy, progressive income tax, universal health care, strong borders, GSRM rights, Stoicism, Existentialism
Islam, religion in general, the current state of American democracy, democracy without significant regulation, the free market, the popular vote for president, violence, revolution, hedonism, post-modernism
Unrustle your jimmies

User avatar
Cekoviu
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11274
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cekoviu » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:05 pm

Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Freedom allows people to protest against abuse of power. Without a certain amount of freedom, the police can abuse you or kill you without consequences.

With freedom, people can still abuse you. Happens all the time to gay people and blacks here in the states.

Imagine unironically thinking the States can be used as an example of freedom in government.
Fun fact: the total insect biomass is estimated to decrease by 2.5% each year. If left unresolved, this could have catastrophic effects on ecosystems around the world.
Torrocca wrote:"Your honor, it was not mein fault! I didn't order the systematic genocide of millions of people, it was the twenty kilograms of pure-cut Bavarian cocaine that did it!"
Liriena wrote:anyone to the left of Pinochet: *exists*

right-wingers: wat about vuvuzelaaa lmao gottem

User avatar
Jean-Paul Sartre
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1617
Founded: Jun 26, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Jean-Paul Sartre » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:06 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:With freedom, people get hurt.

The scale is different, though, and there are more checks on the hurt that is caused with a freer society.
Consider a website with 499 normal users and one administrator who holds the ability to ban users and modify the website. If that administrator goes rogue, nothing can be done to stop them.
However, if the website has 450 normal users and 50 higher-ranking people who share powers among themselves and can be recalled by the users, a single rogue administrator can be easily dealt with because their power is checked by the users and other administrators. Sure, it takes more time and work to manage this system, but it massively decreases the risk of the website being ruined.

Why not have a hierarchy involving several layers of administration? Dictatorship and democracy are not the only options.
Luddite, Doomer, Atheist, Meritocratic Elitist
Politicscales
American exceptionalism, secularism, education, meritocracy in government, the electoral college, elitism, hierarchy, progressive income tax, universal health care, strong borders, GSRM rights, Stoicism, Existentialism
Islam, religion in general, the current state of American democracy, democracy without significant regulation, the free market, the popular vote for president, violence, revolution, hedonism, post-modernism
Unrustle your jimmies

User avatar
Jean-Paul Sartre
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1617
Founded: Jun 26, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Jean-Paul Sartre » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:06 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:With freedom, people can still abuse you. Happens all the time to gay people and blacks here in the states.

Imagine unironically thinking the States can be used as an example of freedom in government.

Then what is an example?
Luddite, Doomer, Atheist, Meritocratic Elitist
Politicscales
American exceptionalism, secularism, education, meritocracy in government, the electoral college, elitism, hierarchy, progressive income tax, universal health care, strong borders, GSRM rights, Stoicism, Existentialism
Islam, religion in general, the current state of American democracy, democracy without significant regulation, the free market, the popular vote for president, violence, revolution, hedonism, post-modernism
Unrustle your jimmies

User avatar
Kowani
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16520
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:06 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Kowani wrote:As much as I’ve tried, I couldn’t bring you over to the left. Sad.

Don't give up hope yet. There's still time.

Oh? :twisted:
Narcissistic (Hedonistic) Nihilist. Yes, I am edgy. I know.
Atheist and still proud of it. Spanish Expat.
Post-Capitalist, Post-Nationalist.
Rights are functionally just privileges society has deemed important.
Prydania wrote:
As a Canadian? I find Americans and their deep, deep distrust of the government to be fundamentally, critically, laughably flawed. I find some aspects of your country completely absurd. The distrust of anything remotely resembling authority is one. The gun problem that stems from that is another.

Seangoli wrote:You are spouting nonsensical drivel with no coherent thought, little logic, and at the end of it all just angry opining at the clouds based on a truly astonishly low level of knowledge or understanding of the subject matter.

0% Capitalism

User avatar
LiberNovusAmericae
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5732
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:06 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:With freedom, people can still abuse you. Happens all the time to gay people and blacks here in the states.

Imagine unironically thinking the States can be used as an example of freedom in government.

It's not even freedom in it's ideal state for me either.
Nova Cyberia wrote:Thank you. I appreciate your respect for my low opinion of you.
Call me Liber for short.
Not to be confused with Novus America. We are different people with very different political opinions.

User avatar
LiberNovusAmericae
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5732
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:07 pm

Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Unfortunately. At least with freedom, they can highlight the fact that some people are scumbags and propose solutions.

Boy golly, I sure am glad I can say, "you're a bitch!" That fixes everything!

You failed to notice the "propose solutions" part of my post.
Nova Cyberia wrote:Thank you. I appreciate your respect for my low opinion of you.
Call me Liber for short.
Not to be confused with Novus America. We are different people with very different political opinions.

User avatar
Jean-Paul Sartre
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1617
Founded: Jun 26, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Jean-Paul Sartre » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:08 pm

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:Imagine unironically thinking the States can be used as an example of freedom in government.

It's not even freedom in it's ideal state for me either.

My point exactly. Libertarians would usually repeal restrictions against individual action, but there's no easy transition between what the individual wants and what society wants. Unchecked individualism has cost the West its happiness.
Luddite, Doomer, Atheist, Meritocratic Elitist
Politicscales
American exceptionalism, secularism, education, meritocracy in government, the electoral college, elitism, hierarchy, progressive income tax, universal health care, strong borders, GSRM rights, Stoicism, Existentialism
Islam, religion in general, the current state of American democracy, democracy without significant regulation, the free market, the popular vote for president, violence, revolution, hedonism, post-modernism
Unrustle your jimmies

User avatar
Jean-Paul Sartre
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1617
Founded: Jun 26, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Jean-Paul Sartre » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:08 pm

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:Boy golly, I sure am glad I can say, "you're a bitch!" That fixes everything!

You failed to notice the "propose solutions" part of my post.

Do those solutions ever actually get passed, though?
Luddite, Doomer, Atheist, Meritocratic Elitist
Politicscales
American exceptionalism, secularism, education, meritocracy in government, the electoral college, elitism, hierarchy, progressive income tax, universal health care, strong borders, GSRM rights, Stoicism, Existentialism
Islam, religion in general, the current state of American democracy, democracy without significant regulation, the free market, the popular vote for president, violence, revolution, hedonism, post-modernism
Unrustle your jimmies

User avatar
Cappuccina
Minister
 
Posts: 2255
Founded: Jun 05, 2018
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Cappuccina » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:09 pm

Kowani wrote:
Cappuccina wrote:I think the horseshoe has activated!

Hmm…Nah.



The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:How did you get from Orwell to Rand?

I'm still a libertarian, but I'd say I'm no longer a right-wing libertarian. I'm more of a centrist economically these days.

As much as I’ve tried, I couldn’t bring you over to the left. Sad.

Aww...oh well, a brief moment of agreement is pleasant every now and then nonetheless.
Muslim, Female, Not white..... oppression points x3!!!!
Automobile fan!!! ^_^
Left/Right: -5.25
SocLib/Auth: 2.46

وحاربهم حتى لم يعد هناك فتنة ، والعبادة ستكون كلها لله وحده.

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