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LWDT 7: The Earth and Heavens Tremble.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Which Book on Leftist Ideology is Your Preferred Book?

The Communist Manifesto (Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels)
23
18%
The Conquest of Bread (Peter Kropotkin)
24
19%
Das Kapital (Karl Marx)
21
16%
What is Property? (Pierre-Joseph Proudhon)
2
2%
Guerilla Warfare (Che Guevara)
8
6%
Mutual Aid (Peter Kropotkin)
2
2%
Profit Over People (Noam Chomsky)
4
3%
The Ego and Its Own (Max Stirner)
8
6%
Debt: The First 5,000 Years (David Graeber)
5
4%
Other (Please Explain)
32
25%
 
Total votes : 129

User avatar
Crysuko
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6362
Founded: Feb 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Crysuko » Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:50 am

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Crysuko wrote:And yet the rightists crow about how popular they're getting. I wonder how much of it is just blind vanity, the desire to say that they're more popular. More influential.

Please note that "rightist" is a vague term. We're not all Nazis or do we all come even close to Nazi doctrine.

When the Nazis rise, you all fall in line.
Quotes:
Xilonite wrote: cookies are heresy.

Kelinfort wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:A terrorist attack on a disabled center doesn't make a lot of sense, unless to show no one is safe.

This will take some time to figure out, i am afraid.

"No one is safe, not even your most vulnerable and insecure!"

Cesopium wrote:Welp let's hope armies of 10 million don't just roam around and Soviet their way through everything.

Yugoslav Memes wrote:
Victoriala II wrote:Ur mom has value

one week ban for flaming xd

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Much better than the kulak smoothies. Their texture was suspiciously grainy.

Syndicalist, vehement anti-fascist.
I USE Qs INSTEAD OF Qs

User avatar
Kowani
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24350
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:51 am

Crysuko wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Please note that "rightist" is a vague term. We're not all Nazis or do we all come even close to Nazi doctrine.

When the Nazis rise, you all fall in line.

To be fair, a lot of people do.
Spanish-American Atheist.
“The time has come to call evil out as evil, and we shall not apologize for naming brutality.”
NSG's resident data enthusiast.
Ni dios, ni rey, ni patria, ni amo


Telconi wrote:Every once in a while Kowani does have a decent point.

User avatar
LiberNovusAmericae
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6945
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:51 am

Crysuko wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Please note that "rightist" is a vague term. We're not all Nazis or do we all come even close to Nazi doctrine.

When the Nazis rise, you all fall in line.

Tell that to the Anti-Nazi conservatives and other anti-Nazi right wingers who were purged during the Night of The Long Knives. We don't all "fall in line."
Last edited by LiberNovusAmericae on Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
China Lied, People Died.
Anti-imperialism is really code for anti-west.
Not to be confused with Novus America! We are NOT the same player.

User avatar
Nakena
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11558
Founded: May 06, 2017
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Nakena » Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:52 am

Crysuko wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:That comes as no surprise. I mean, I'm sure the overwhelming majority of the populace doesn't want to start Holocaust 2.0 or anything like that. Even with immigration issues, I doubt any Nazi parties will gain power. Golden Dawn is a Neo-Nazi group that was a rising star in Greek politics for example, but now the trend is reversing. The 2019 election just resulted in all of their seats being lost in the Greek legislature.

And yet the rightists crow about how popular they're getting. I wonder how much of it is just blind vanity, the desire to say that they're more popular. More influential.


Identitarians and right-wing populists have gone from cringe-fringe to a force to be reckoned with in the past years. In many cases they have become the White Elephant in the room of european politics.
Last edited by Nakena on Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
LiberNovusAmericae
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6945
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:54 am

Nakena wrote:
Crysuko wrote:And yet the rightists crow about how popular they're getting. I wonder how much of it is just blind vanity, the desire to say that they're more popular. More influential.


Identitarians and right-wing populists have gone from cringe-fringe to a force to be reckoned with in the past years. In many cases they have become the White Elephant in the room of european politics.

This ^^
China Lied, People Died.
Anti-imperialism is really code for anti-west.
Not to be confused with Novus America! We are NOT the same player.

User avatar
Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54477
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:56 am

Kowani wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:The alt-right isn't shrinking as a result of the Trump presidency, why would you think that?

The growth of the far-right is still going on. In Germany they've overtaken Merkels party in a few areas. In general in fact they're a growing movement.

Yeah, it was quite obvious that we were talking about the US.


If you think it's dead in the US you aren't paying attention either.

Portlands mayor for instance has all but ceded the city to a far-right rally on august 17th, and polling indicates the normalization of far-right viewpoints on a number of topics.

Beyond that you've also got the normalization of a general anti-idpol left sentiment on issues like feminism and anti-white racism and so on.

I don't know what you're basing this on. Is it the triumphalism of the media claiming victory over their enemies? That's the same thing that caused the Trump upset in the first place. The polls indicate precisely the opposite.

"Immigration" ranks as the most important issue to americans as of 30th of june. Healthcare is also up there, the two trade places frequently.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
The plague has been worse for women.
It's true that more men are dying from COVID, but that's not exactly a cause for celebration.
https://i.redd.it/oqy5p3p1ayv41.png

User avatar
Nakena
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11558
Founded: May 06, 2017
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Nakena » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:00 am

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Crysuko wrote:When the Nazis rise, you all fall in line.

Tell that to the conservatives and other anti-Nazi right wingers who were purged during the Night of The Long Knives.


Good point.

Aaaalso... if the immigration situation ever hits the fan (which it might someday in a number of euro countries, specifically France) a whole lot of liberals and even left-wingers will snddely move towards the radical right and become the most aggressive, most reckless, nasty opponents of immigration ever.

In fact no little number of right-wing populists are, in fact, former liberals (or conservatives) turned really angry, rogue and all around nasty.

When normies get mad...
Last edited by Nakena on Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:03 am, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
Kowani
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24350
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:01 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Kowani wrote:Yeah, it was quite obvious that we were talking about the US.


If you think it's dead in the US you aren't paying attention either.

Portlands mayor for instance has all but ceded the city to a far-right rally on august 17th,
You mean he followed the Constitution?
and polling indicates the normalization of far-right viewpoints on a number of topics.
Could we stop confusing the far right and the alt-lite? It makes it quite hard to have a conversation about this.
Beyond that you've also got the normalization of a general anti-idpol left sentiment on issues like feminism and anti-white racism and so on.
Yeah, this is what we call the alt-lite.
I don't know what you're basing this on. Is it the triumphalism of the media claiming victory over their enemies? That's the same thing that caused the Trump upset in the first place. The polls indicate precisely the opposite.

Sigh.
Spanish-American Atheist.
“The time has come to call evil out as evil, and we shall not apologize for naming brutality.”
NSG's resident data enthusiast.
Ni dios, ni rey, ni patria, ni amo


Telconi wrote:Every once in a while Kowani does have a decent point.

User avatar
Kowani
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24350
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:03 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:"Immigration" ranks as the most important issue to americans as of 30th of june. Healthcare is also up there, the two trade places frequently.

You realize that isn’t actually proof of the far right rising up.
Spanish-American Atheist.
“The time has come to call evil out as evil, and we shall not apologize for naming brutality.”
NSG's resident data enthusiast.
Ni dios, ni rey, ni patria, ni amo


Telconi wrote:Every once in a while Kowani does have a decent point.

User avatar
Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54477
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:10 am

The mainstream left portraying all of this as evidence of the far-right rising up and claiming it's all racism/sexism and so on means functionally the conversation we're having is a different one.

I'm inclined to agree with you when you properly frame it, but i'd also say the alt-right then never really had all that influence in the first place and Trump hasn't managed to do anything to lose them their shot.
The plague has been worse for women.
It's true that more men are dying from COVID, but that's not exactly a cause for celebration.
https://i.redd.it/oqy5p3p1ayv41.png

User avatar
Crysuko
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6362
Founded: Feb 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Crysuko » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:12 am

Nakena wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Tell that to the conservatives and other anti-Nazi right wingers who were purged during the Night of The Long Knives.


Good point.

Aaaalso... if the immigration situation ever hits the fan (which it might someday in a number of euro countries, specifically France) a whole lot of liberals and even left-wingers will snddely move towards the radical right and become the most aggressive, most reckless, nasty opponents of immigration ever.

In fact no little number of right-wing populists are, in fact, former liberals (or conservatives) turned really angry, rogue and all around nasty.

When normies get mad...

See Kristallnacht for a prime example of this
Quotes:
Xilonite wrote: cookies are heresy.

Kelinfort wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:A terrorist attack on a disabled center doesn't make a lot of sense, unless to show no one is safe.

This will take some time to figure out, i am afraid.

"No one is safe, not even your most vulnerable and insecure!"

Cesopium wrote:Welp let's hope armies of 10 million don't just roam around and Soviet their way through everything.

Yugoslav Memes wrote:
Victoriala II wrote:Ur mom has value

one week ban for flaming xd

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Much better than the kulak smoothies. Their texture was suspiciously grainy.

Syndicalist, vehement anti-fascist.
I USE Qs INSTEAD OF Qs

User avatar
LiberNovusAmericae
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6945
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:16 am

Crysuko wrote:
Nakena wrote:
Good point.

Aaaalso... if the immigration situation ever hits the fan (which it might someday in a number of euro countries, specifically France) a whole lot of liberals and even left-wingers will snddely move towards the radical right and become the most aggressive, most reckless, nasty opponents of immigration ever.

In fact no little number of right-wing populists are, in fact, former liberals (or conservatives) turned really angry, rogue and all around nasty.

When normies get mad...

See Kristallnacht for a prime example of this

Which demonstrates that the Nazis were evil. That was carried out by the SA and pro-Nazi civilians.
China Lied, People Died.
Anti-imperialism is really code for anti-west.
Not to be confused with Novus America! We are NOT the same player.

User avatar
Nakena
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11558
Founded: May 06, 2017
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Nakena » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:17 am

Crysuko wrote:See Kristallnacht for a prime example of this


Kristallnacht was an organized pogrom by Goebbels and Hitler and mostly conducted by the SA.

Its description as "public and spontanous outburst of popular anger" is literal NSDAP propaganda.

User avatar
Crysuko
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6362
Founded: Feb 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Crysuko » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:19 am

Nakena wrote:
Crysuko wrote:See Kristallnacht for a prime example of this


Kristallnacht was an organized pogrom by Goebbels and Hitler and mostly conducted by the SA.

Its description as "public and spontanous outburst of popular anger" is literal NSDAP propaganda.

My point being to stop these people getting into power, so we don't get another one pogrom such as this
Quotes:
Xilonite wrote: cookies are heresy.

Kelinfort wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:A terrorist attack on a disabled center doesn't make a lot of sense, unless to show no one is safe.

This will take some time to figure out, i am afraid.

"No one is safe, not even your most vulnerable and insecure!"

Cesopium wrote:Welp let's hope armies of 10 million don't just roam around and Soviet their way through everything.

Yugoslav Memes wrote:
Victoriala II wrote:Ur mom has value

one week ban for flaming xd

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Much better than the kulak smoothies. Their texture was suspiciously grainy.

Syndicalist, vehement anti-fascist.
I USE Qs INSTEAD OF Qs

User avatar
LiberNovusAmericae
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6945
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:33 am

Crysuko wrote:
Nakena wrote:
Kristallnacht was an organized pogrom by Goebbels and Hitler and mostly conducted by the SA.

Its description as "public and spontanous outburst of popular anger" is literal NSDAP propaganda.

My point being to stop these people getting into power, so we don't get another one pogrom such as this

To do that, follow Sweden's example, and start imposing moderate immigration restrictions. This won't appease the hardcore fascist activists, but it would appease the people, and result in Nazis not having any grievance to campaign on, and losing.
China Lied, People Died.
Anti-imperialism is really code for anti-west.
Not to be confused with Novus America! We are NOT the same player.

User avatar
Crysuko
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6362
Founded: Feb 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Crysuko » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:34 am

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Crysuko wrote:My point being to stop these people getting into power, so we don't get another one pogrom such as this

To do that, follow Sweden's example, and start imposing moderate immigration restrictions. This won't appease the hardcore fascist activists, but it would appease the people, and result in Nazis not having any grievance to campaign on, and losing.

As a strategic move to prevent the far right gaining traction, I can agree to that.
Quotes:
Xilonite wrote: cookies are heresy.

Kelinfort wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:A terrorist attack on a disabled center doesn't make a lot of sense, unless to show no one is safe.

This will take some time to figure out, i am afraid.

"No one is safe, not even your most vulnerable and insecure!"

Cesopium wrote:Welp let's hope armies of 10 million don't just roam around and Soviet their way through everything.

Yugoslav Memes wrote:
Victoriala II wrote:Ur mom has value

one week ban for flaming xd

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Much better than the kulak smoothies. Their texture was suspiciously grainy.

Syndicalist, vehement anti-fascist.
I USE Qs INSTEAD OF Qs

User avatar
The Xenopolis Confederation
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8236
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:35 am

Crysuko wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Please note that "rightist" is a vague term. We're not all Nazis or do we all come even close to Nazi doctrine.

When the Nazis rise, you all fall in line.

That's untrue.
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Progressive Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0.5
Social: -8
I'm a 19 year old Australian. Liberalism with a dash of lolbert. I don't do as much research as I should.

I'm a MTF transgender person, so I'd prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

User avatar
LiberNovusAmericae
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6945
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:36 am

Crysuko wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:To do that, follow Sweden's example, and start imposing moderate immigration restrictions. This won't appease the hardcore fascist activists, but it would appease the people, and result in Nazis not having any grievance to campaign on, and losing.

As a strategic move to prevent the far right gaining traction, I can agree to that.

A strategic move and something to fix the problem with immigrants not assimilating.
China Lied, People Died.
Anti-imperialism is really code for anti-west.
Not to be confused with Novus America! We are NOT the same player.

User avatar
Nakena
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11558
Founded: May 06, 2017
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Nakena » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:36 am

Crysuko wrote:
Nakena wrote:
Kristallnacht was an organized pogrom by Goebbels and Hitler and mostly conducted by the SA.

Its description as "public and spontanous outburst of popular anger" is literal NSDAP propaganda.

My point being to stop these people getting into power, so we don't get another one pogrom such as this


Next time it happens in the United States. For its very own special reasons which keep piling up increasingly.

User avatar
Kowani
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24350
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:38 am

Nakena wrote:
Crysuko wrote:My point being to stop these people getting into power, so we don't get another one pogrom such as this


Next time it happens in the United States. For its very own special reasons which keep piling up increasingly.

Most of which include people blaming immigrants for all their problems.
Spanish-American Atheist.
“The time has come to call evil out as evil, and we shall not apologize for naming brutality.”
NSG's resident data enthusiast.
Ni dios, ni rey, ni patria, ni amo


Telconi wrote:Every once in a while Kowani does have a decent point.

User avatar
Crysuko
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6362
Founded: Feb 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Crysuko » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:40 am

Kowani wrote:
Nakena wrote:
Next time it happens in the United States. For its very own special reasons which keep piling up increasingly.

Most of which include people blaming immigrants for all their problems.

There's plenty of right leaning militias and republicans who would be more than happy to organise and execute such an act
Quotes:
Xilonite wrote: cookies are heresy.

Kelinfort wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:A terrorist attack on a disabled center doesn't make a lot of sense, unless to show no one is safe.

This will take some time to figure out, i am afraid.

"No one is safe, not even your most vulnerable and insecure!"

Cesopium wrote:Welp let's hope armies of 10 million don't just roam around and Soviet their way through everything.

Yugoslav Memes wrote:
Victoriala II wrote:Ur mom has value

one week ban for flaming xd

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Much better than the kulak smoothies. Their texture was suspiciously grainy.

Syndicalist, vehement anti-fascist.
I USE Qs INSTEAD OF Qs

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26912
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Torrocca » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:50 am

Looks like we're almost ready for the 8th iteration. Don't think I'll OP that one, this time around (like I said a while back), so, uh... somebody feel free to take charge? Hold a quick vote for a new OP? I dunno.
Communist now and forever.
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - [b]Buenaventura Durruti

"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

User avatar
Crysuko
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6362
Founded: Feb 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Crysuko » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:51 am

Torrocca wrote:Looks like we're almost ready for the 8th iteration. Don't think I'll OP that one, this time around (like I said a while back), so, uh... somebody feel free to take charge? Hold a quick vote for a new OP? I dunno.

Maybe I'll do it, depending on anyone else's input
Quotes:
Xilonite wrote: cookies are heresy.

Kelinfort wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:A terrorist attack on a disabled center doesn't make a lot of sense, unless to show no one is safe.

This will take some time to figure out, i am afraid.

"No one is safe, not even your most vulnerable and insecure!"

Cesopium wrote:Welp let's hope armies of 10 million don't just roam around and Soviet their way through everything.

Yugoslav Memes wrote:
Victoriala II wrote:Ur mom has value

one week ban for flaming xd

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Much better than the kulak smoothies. Their texture was suspiciously grainy.

Syndicalist, vehement anti-fascist.
I USE Qs INSTEAD OF Qs

User avatar
North German Realm
Senator
 
Posts: 4486
Founded: Jan 27, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby North German Realm » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:53 am

Torrocca wrote:Looks like we're almost ready for the 8th iteration. Don't think I'll OP that one, this time around (like I said a while back), so, uh... somebody feel free to take charge? Hold a quick vote for a new OP? I dunno.

I'd say holding a poll over it is probably the smarter idea, but honestly I doubt we can reach an accord in the next, what, 4-5 pages?
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User avatar
Crysuko
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6362
Founded: Feb 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Crysuko » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:55 am

North German Realm wrote:
Torrocca wrote:Looks like we're almost ready for the 8th iteration. Don't think I'll OP that one, this time around (like I said a while back), so, uh... somebody feel free to take charge? Hold a quick vote for a new OP? I dunno.

I'd say holding a poll over it is probably the smarter idea, but honestly I doubt we can reach an accord in the next, what, 4-5 pages?

It'd just end up being an ego thing.
Quotes:
Xilonite wrote: cookies are heresy.

Kelinfort wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:A terrorist attack on a disabled center doesn't make a lot of sense, unless to show no one is safe.

This will take some time to figure out, i am afraid.

"No one is safe, not even your most vulnerable and insecure!"

Cesopium wrote:Welp let's hope armies of 10 million don't just roam around and Soviet their way through everything.

Yugoslav Memes wrote:
Victoriala II wrote:Ur mom has value

one week ban for flaming xd

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Much better than the kulak smoothies. Their texture was suspiciously grainy.

Syndicalist, vehement anti-fascist.
I USE Qs INSTEAD OF Qs

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