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LWDT 7: The Earth and Heavens Tremble.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Which Book on Leftist Ideology is Your Preferred Book?

The Communist Manifesto (Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels)
23
18%
The Conquest of Bread (Peter Kropotkin)
24
19%
Das Kapital (Karl Marx)
21
16%
What is Property? (Pierre-Joseph Proudhon)
2
2%
Guerilla Warfare (Che Guevara)
8
6%
Mutual Aid (Peter Kropotkin)
2
2%
Profit Over People (Noam Chomsky)
4
3%
The Ego and Its Own (Max Stirner)
8
6%
Debt: The First 5,000 Years (David Graeber)
5
4%
Other (Please Explain)
32
25%
 
Total votes : 129

User avatar
Nova Cyberia
Senator
 
Posts: 4456
Founded: May 06, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Nova Cyberia » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:55 pm

Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:Or perhaps we simply aren't slaves and don't need your shitty ideology to help us. I'm a worker and I have a fairly good life, as do many others. You're completely disconnected from the reality of the situation. We aren't all 19th century Russian peasants.

Some of us are 20th century Russian kulaks in disguise.

I fear for you then given that Stalin will quickly do away with you all as punishment for his own policies not succeeding.
Yes, yes, I get it. I'm racist and fascist because I disagree with you. Can we skip that part? I've heard it a million times before and I guarantee it won't be any different when you do it
##############
American Nationalist
Third Positionist Gang

User avatar
Jean-Paul Sartre
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1684
Founded: Jun 26, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Jean-Paul Sartre » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:56 pm

Nova Cyberia wrote:
Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:Some of us are 20th century Russian kulaks in disguise.

I fear for you then given that Stalin will quickly do away with you all as punishment for his own policies not succeeding.

Don’t worry. We’ll just subsist off of all the grain we’ve stored up with our good policies.
"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man."
-Heraclitus of Ephesus

User avatar
Washington Resistance Army
Post Czar
 
Posts: 45149
Founded: Aug 08, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby Washington Resistance Army » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:01 am

Trotskylvania wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:Or perhaps we simply aren't slaves and don't need your shitty ideology to help us. I'm a worker and I have a fairly good life, as do many others. You're completely disconnected from the reality of the situation. We aren't all 19th century Russian peasants.

If life were really that good, my coworkers would not be constantly joking about injuring themselves so they could time away from work.

When your normal working class job inspires suicidal ideation, that's a sign that things are not alright.


Alternatively you might just have a shitty job. A buddy of mine is a single guy making $32 an hour and he has no complaints.
Last edited by Washington Resistance Army on Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Third Positionist, Agrarian, Anti-Racist, Authoritarian

User avatar
Kowani
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24056
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:07 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Trotskylvania wrote:If life were really that good, my coworkers would not be constantly joking about injuring themselves so they could time away from work.

When your normal working class job inspires suicidal ideation, that's a sign that things are not alright.


Alternatively you might just have a shitty job. A buddy of mine is a single guy making $32 an hour and he has no complaints.

Stats say it’s about evenly split.
Spanish -AmericanAtheist.
“The time has come to call evil out as evil, and we shall not apologize for naming brutality.”
NSG's resident data enthusiast.
Eppur si muove.


Telconi wrote:Every once in a while Kowani does have a decent point.

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26912
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Torrocca » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:13 am

Kowani wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Alternatively you might just have a shitty job. A buddy of mine is a single guy making $32 an hour and he has no complaints.

Stats say it’s about evenly split.


Fascinating how they can be near-evenly satisfied or dissatisfied with their work, but far less likely with their financial situation tbh. Which, y'know, for the most part, makes perfect sense. It's not hard to find satisfying work, but it's sure as shit much harder to find work that helps you meet your basic needs.
Communist now and forever.
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - [b]Buenaventura Durruti

"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

User avatar
Kowani
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24056
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:16 am

Torrocca wrote:
Kowani wrote:Stats say it’s about evenly split.


Fascinating how they can be near-evenly satisfied or dissatisfied with their work, but far less likely with their financial situation tbh. Which, y'know, for the most part, makes perfect sense. It's not hard to find satisfying work, but it's sure as shit much harder to find work that helps you meet your basic needs.

This is one of the worst parts of capitalism.
Spanish -AmericanAtheist.
“The time has come to call evil out as evil, and we shall not apologize for naming brutality.”
NSG's resident data enthusiast.
Eppur si muove.


Telconi wrote:Every once in a while Kowani does have a decent point.

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26912
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Torrocca » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:20 am

Kowani wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Fascinating how they can be near-evenly satisfied or dissatisfied with their work, but far less likely with their financial situation tbh. Which, y'know, for the most part, makes perfect sense. It's not hard to find satisfying work, but it's sure as shit much harder to find work that helps you meet your basic needs.

This is one of the worst parts of capitalism.


It really is though. All the more reason to get some good ol' fashioned Socialism going, tbh.
Communist now and forever.
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - [b]Buenaventura Durruti

"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

User avatar
Kowani
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24056
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:23 am

Torrocca wrote:
Kowani wrote:This is one of the worst parts of capitalism.


It really is though. All the more reason to get some good ol' fashioned Socialism going, tbh.

Automation time!
Spanish -AmericanAtheist.
“The time has come to call evil out as evil, and we shall not apologize for naming brutality.”
NSG's resident data enthusiast.
Eppur si muove.


Telconi wrote:Every once in a while Kowani does have a decent point.

User avatar
The Xenopolis Confederation
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8228
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:24 am

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Nakena wrote:
Anti-Bolshevism is on the rise. And so is tankism and blatant Stalin apologism.

Image

Tankies must be barred from government.

No they shouldn't. They should however be barred from violating people's rights if they get into power.
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Progressive Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0.5
Social: -8
I'm a 19 year old Australian who tries to think about things but fails, as we all do. I'll regret this in 2 years tops.

I think I have gender dysphoria so I'd prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

User avatar
Kubra
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12876
Founded: Apr 15, 2006
Libertarian Police State

Postby Kubra » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:25 am

Hanafuridake wrote:
Kowani wrote:Who the fuck defends Pol Pot or Idi Amin?


Khmer ultra-nationalists who think class is mental instead of economic are the real Marxists.
Kubra wrote:Tbf during the Khmer rouges heyday folks did defend them. Y'know, not a lot of info was getting out, all people saw was a red regime in a conflict hotspot, and one supported by China. This was maoism's zenith, so a lot of Maoists orgs toed the line to keep up the terms of their franchise agreement.


Pol Pol keeping Norodom Sihanouk as ceremonial head of state and having him do PR missions was a masterstroke. Although then again, he couldn't have killed him even if he wanted to, because Beijing supported Norodom.
That wasn't necessarily a political masterstroke, the khmer rouge politburo was of a really colourful character that involved full on Khmer revivalism that verged on medieval. It was probably actual honest sentiment that kept him as figurehead monarch.
Last edited by Kubra on Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Atomic war is inevitable. It will destroy half of humanity: it is going to destroy immense human riches. It is very possible. The atomic war is going to provoke a true inferno on Earth. But it will not impede Communism.”
-Comrade Posadas

User avatar
Wayneactia
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1387
Founded: Aug 01, 2014
New York Times Democracy

Postby Wayneactia » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:26 am

Hanafuridake wrote:and the Soviet Union hasn't revived yet.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQKzesTq0Wo

Really?

User avatar
Kubra
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12876
Founded: Apr 15, 2006
Libertarian Police State

Postby Kubra » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:29 am

Hanafuridake wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Tankies must be barred from government.


That would suggest that there's a serious risk of tankies becoming members of the government.

Which isn't the case. Stalin sympathizers are much more common in Russia than Western Europe, and the Soviet Union hasn't revived yet.
They become members in plenty of places more often than they ought to. Forming a government is of course absurd, but y'know gotta nitpick.
“Atomic war is inevitable. It will destroy half of humanity: it is going to destroy immense human riches. It is very possible. The atomic war is going to provoke a true inferno on Earth. But it will not impede Communism.”
-Comrade Posadas

User avatar
Trotskylvania
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 17217
Founded: Jul 07, 2006
Ex-Nation

Postby Trotskylvania » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:42 am

Nova Cyberia wrote:
Trotskylvania wrote:If life were really that good, my coworkers would not be constantly joking about injuring themselves so they could time away from work.

When your normal working class job inspires suicidal ideation, that's a sign that things are not alright.

Have you considered that your anecdotes are not representative of everyone's experiences? I mean, honestly, maybe your job just sucks. You have my sympathies, but quit acting acting like no one else can have a good life.

We've all worked worse. This is not my first rodeo, buckaroo. Everywhere I've worked, every one i've known, regardless of the trade, is getting ground down by their jobs.

Jobs are always shitty for structural reasons. Market competition demands that exploitation be ratcheted further, that productivity increases. "Bad jobs" are a disingenuous red herring.
Your Friendly Neighborhood Ultra - The Left Wing of the Impossible
Putting the '-sadism' in Posadism


"The hell of capitalism is the firm, not the fact that the firm has a boss."- Bordiga

User avatar
Cappuccina
Minister
 
Posts: 2905
Founded: Jun 05, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Cappuccina » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:48 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Trotskylvania wrote:If life were really that good, my coworkers would not be constantly joking about injuring themselves so they could time away from work.

When your normal working class job inspires suicidal ideation, that's a sign that things are not alright.


Alternatively you might just have a shitty job. A buddy of mine is a single guy making $32 an hour and he has no complaints.

You all are both making worthless anecdotal arguments, some people have shit jobs they hate, some have great jobs they like...mix it up and vise versa.

This argument won't go anywhere if there's no way to gauge peoples' general disposition in regards to the prevailing economic system (i.e Capitalism).
Muslim, Female, Trans, Not white..... oppression points x4!!!!
"Latinx" isn't a real word. :^)
Automobile & Music fan!!! ^_^
Also, an everything 1980s fan!!!
Left/Right: -5.25
SocLib/Auth: 2.46

Apparently, I'm an INFP

User avatar
Kubra
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12876
Founded: Apr 15, 2006
Libertarian Police State

Postby Kubra » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:50 am

Cappuccina wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Alternatively you might just have a shitty job. A buddy of mine is a single guy making $32 an hour and he has no complaints.

You all are both making worthless anecdotal arguments, some people have shit jobs they hate, some have great jobs they like...mix it up and vise versa.

This argument won't go anywhere if there's no way to gauge peoples' general disposition in regards to the prevailing economic system (i.e Capitalism).
you had a perfect opportunity to shorten that to y'all
why did you not do so
“Atomic war is inevitable. It will destroy half of humanity: it is going to destroy immense human riches. It is very possible. The atomic war is going to provoke a true inferno on Earth. But it will not impede Communism.”
-Comrade Posadas

User avatar
Cappuccina
Minister
 
Posts: 2905
Founded: Jun 05, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Cappuccina » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:51 am

Kubra wrote:
Cappuccina wrote:You all are both making worthless anecdotal arguments, some people have shit jobs they hate, some have great jobs they like...mix it up and vise versa.

This argument won't go anywhere if there's no way to gauge peoples' general disposition in regards to the prevailing economic system (i.e Capitalism).
you had a perfect opportunity to shorten that to y'all
why did you not do so

I surprisingly autocorrect reversed it, I actually did write "y'all". :p
Muslim, Female, Trans, Not white..... oppression points x4!!!!
"Latinx" isn't a real word. :^)
Automobile & Music fan!!! ^_^
Also, an everything 1980s fan!!!
Left/Right: -5.25
SocLib/Auth: 2.46

Apparently, I'm an INFP

User avatar
Kowani
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24056
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:52 am

Cappuccina wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Alternatively you might just have a shitty job. A buddy of mine is a single guy making $32 an hour and he has no complaints.

You all are both making worthless anecdotal arguments, some people have shit jobs they hate, some have great jobs they like...mix it up and vise versa.

This argument won't go anywhere if there's no way to gauge peoples' general disposition in regards to the prevailing economic system (i.e Capitalism).


Kowani wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Alternatively you might just have a shitty job. A buddy of mine is a single guy making $32 an hour and he has no complaints.

Stats say it’s about evenly split.

But as Torra points out, financial satisfaction is low.
Spanish -AmericanAtheist.
“The time has come to call evil out as evil, and we shall not apologize for naming brutality.”
NSG's resident data enthusiast.
Eppur si muove.


Telconi wrote:Every once in a while Kowani does have a decent point.

User avatar
Kubra
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12876
Founded: Apr 15, 2006
Libertarian Police State

Postby Kubra » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:52 am

Cappuccina wrote:
Kubra wrote: you had a perfect opportunity to shorten that to y'all
why did you not do so

I surprisingly autocorrect reversed it, I actually did write "y'all". :p
as long as we're clear.
carry on, citizen.
“Atomic war is inevitable. It will destroy half of humanity: it is going to destroy immense human riches. It is very possible. The atomic war is going to provoke a true inferno on Earth. But it will not impede Communism.”
-Comrade Posadas

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26912
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Torrocca » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:54 am

Kowani wrote:
Cappuccina wrote:You all are both making worthless anecdotal arguments, some people have shit jobs they hate, some have great jobs they like...mix it up and vise versa.

This argument won't go anywhere if there's no way to gauge peoples' general disposition in regards to the prevailing economic system (i.e Capitalism).


Kowani wrote:Stats say it’s about evenly split.

But as Torra points out, financial satisfaction is low.


And if we apply that financial dissatisfaction to the macro scale, where 80% of the world subsists on less than $10 a day, then shit's probably a whole lot worse than that Pew article indicates.
Communist now and forever.
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - [b]Buenaventura Durruti

"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

User avatar
Washington Resistance Army
Post Czar
 
Posts: 45149
Founded: Aug 08, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby Washington Resistance Army » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:55 am

Torrocca wrote:
Kowani wrote:

But as Torra points out, financial satisfaction is low.


And if we apply that financial dissatisfaction to the macro scale, where 80% of the world subsists on less than $10 a day, then shit's probably a whole lot worse than that Pew article indicates.


Tbf 80% of the world also has drastically lower costs of living than we do.
Third Positionist, Agrarian, Anti-Racist, Authoritarian

User avatar
Cappuccina
Minister
 
Posts: 2905
Founded: Jun 05, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Cappuccina » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:55 am

Kowani wrote:
Cappuccina wrote:You all are both making worthless anecdotal arguments, some people have shit jobs they hate, some have great jobs they like...mix it up and vise versa.

This argument won't go anywhere if there's no way to gauge peoples' general disposition in regards to the prevailing economic system (i.e Capitalism).


Kowani wrote:Stats say it’s about evenly split.

But as Torra points out, financial satisfaction is low.

Thanks for the link, btw.

But the low financial satisfaction can also be a result of people living beyond their means, frivolity with money unfortunately rather common.
Muslim, Female, Trans, Not white..... oppression points x4!!!!
"Latinx" isn't a real word. :^)
Automobile & Music fan!!! ^_^
Also, an everything 1980s fan!!!
Left/Right: -5.25
SocLib/Auth: 2.46

Apparently, I'm an INFP

User avatar
Kowani
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24056
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:56 am

Torrocca wrote:
Kowani wrote:

But as Torra points out, financial satisfaction is low.


And if we apply that financial dissatisfaction to the macro scale, where 80% of the world subsists on less than $10 a day, then shit's probably a whole lot worse than that Pew article indicates.

Hey, that’s just for the US. Things are different in other countries.
Spanish -AmericanAtheist.
“The time has come to call evil out as evil, and we shall not apologize for naming brutality.”
NSG's resident data enthusiast.
Eppur si muove.


Telconi wrote:Every once in a while Kowani does have a decent point.

User avatar
Kubra
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12876
Founded: Apr 15, 2006
Libertarian Police State

Postby Kubra » Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:02 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
And if we apply that financial dissatisfaction to the macro scale, where 80% of the world subsists on less than $10 a day, then shit's probably a whole lot worse than that Pew article indicates.


Tbf 80% of the world also has drastically lower costs of living than we do.
sure, insofar as they lack creature comforts we take for granted. For instance, air conditioning; shits expensive, both to buy and maintain.
I mean, It's not expensive for me, at all, but other people, like the family back in the old country.

Do you know how much air conditioning matters, or are you some northern germanic barbarian?
Last edited by Kubra on Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Atomic war is inevitable. It will destroy half of humanity: it is going to destroy immense human riches. It is very possible. The atomic war is going to provoke a true inferno on Earth. But it will not impede Communism.”
-Comrade Posadas

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26912
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Torrocca » Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:03 am

Kowani wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
And if we apply that financial dissatisfaction to the macro scale, where 80% of the world subsists on less than $10 a day, then shit's probably a whole lot worse than that Pew article indicates.

Hey, that’s just for the US. Things are different in other countries.


Obviously, but still. The US is one of the most developed countries in the world, so it's not hard to imagine that conditions are worse elsewhere, or better in the cases of those few countries that don't treat their workers as little more than cattle.
Communist now and forever.
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - [b]Buenaventura Durruti

"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

User avatar
Nakena
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11558
Founded: May 06, 2017
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Nakena » Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:03 am

Torrocca wrote:
Kowani wrote:Hey, that’s just for the US. Things are different in other countries.


Obviously, but still. The US is one of the most developed countries in the world, so it's not hard to imagine that conditions are worse elsewhere, or better in the cases of those few countries that don't treat their workers as little more than cattle.


Theres always Bangladesh and Cambodia at the lower end of the order of generalized shitty and grittyness.
Last edited by Nakena on Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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