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LWDT 7: The Earth and Heavens Tremble.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Which Book on Leftist Ideology is Your Preferred Book?

The Communist Manifesto (Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels)
23
18%
The Conquest of Bread (Peter Kropotkin)
24
19%
Das Kapital (Karl Marx)
21
16%
What is Property? (Pierre-Joseph Proudhon)
2
2%
Guerilla Warfare (Che Guevara)
8
6%
Mutual Aid (Peter Kropotkin)
2
2%
Profit Over People (Noam Chomsky)
4
3%
The Ego and Its Own (Max Stirner)
8
6%
Debt: The First 5,000 Years (David Graeber)
5
4%
Other (Please Explain)
32
25%
 
Total votes : 129

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United Muscovite Nations
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Ex-Nation

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:46 pm

Torrocca wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:Glad to see we're just trusting random third world militias and their nationalist agendas uncritically.


United Muscovite Nations wrote:Just because you're an anarchist doesn't mean you have to support nationalist third world militias that give arms to terrorist groups.


National liberation =/= Nationalism.

When the goal is to establish a nation-state, the terms are synonymous.
Grumpy Grandpa of the LWDT and RWDT
Kantian with panentheist and Christian beliefs. Rawlsian Socialist. Just completed studies in History and International Relations. Asexual with sex-revulsion.
The world is grey, the mountains old, the forges fire is ashen cold. No harp is wrung, no hammer falls, the darkness dwells in Durin's halls...
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts
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United Muscovite Nations
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Founded: Feb 01, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:47 pm

Pasong Tirad wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:Glad to see we're just trusting random third world militias and their nationalist agendas uncritically.

Not uncritically, no. I've already mentioned that I do believe they're closely connected both ideologically and through the political organization the KCK. The PKK I'm sure has done some bad shit that's unjustifiable. None of this is proof that the PYD-YPG is somehow the same as the PKK. Literally nothing but a bunch of words stated on the record by a bunch of men in suits and uniforms. I'm more than happy to consider any actual links they've provided.

That they provide arms to one-another is one link. But regardless, the US supports the YPG, they are allies, so if the goal of the US was to discredit the YPG, that would be strange. In fact, the US has invested a lot of diplomatic effort to rebrand the YPG.
Grumpy Grandpa of the LWDT and RWDT
Kantian with panentheist and Christian beliefs. Rawlsian Socialist. Just completed studies in History and International Relations. Asexual with sex-revulsion.
The world is grey, the mountains old, the forges fire is ashen cold. No harp is wrung, no hammer falls, the darkness dwells in Durin's halls...
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts
Borderline Personality Disorder, currently in treatment. I apologize if I blow up at you. TG me for info, can't discuss publicly because the mods support stigma on mental illness.

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Torrocca
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Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:49 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Torrocca wrote:


National liberation =/= Nationalism.

When the goal is to establish a nation-state, the terms are synonymous.


Do you expect them to achieve national liberation from Assad's oppressions by not achieving national liberation, by chance?
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They call me Torra, but you can call me... anytime (☞⌐■_■)☞
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NOTICE 1: Anything depicted IC on this nation does NOT reflect my IRL views or values, and is not endorsed by me.
NOTICE 2: Most RP and every OOC post by me prior to 2023 are no longer endorsed nor tolerated by me. I've since put on my adult pants!
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United Muscovite Nations
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Founded: Feb 01, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:51 pm

Torrocca wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:When the goal is to establish a nation-state, the terms are synonymous.


Do you expect them to achieve national liberation from Assad's oppressions by not achieving national liberation, by chance?

I support liberation, not national liberation, which is just a polite term Marxist-Leninists made up to justify supporting ethnic-nationalist militias in the third world.
Grumpy Grandpa of the LWDT and RWDT
Kantian with panentheist and Christian beliefs. Rawlsian Socialist. Just completed studies in History and International Relations. Asexual with sex-revulsion.
The world is grey, the mountains old, the forges fire is ashen cold. No harp is wrung, no hammer falls, the darkness dwells in Durin's halls...
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts
Borderline Personality Disorder, currently in treatment. I apologize if I blow up at you. TG me for info, can't discuss publicly because the mods support stigma on mental illness.

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Torrocca
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Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:54 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Do you expect them to achieve national liberation from Assad's oppressions by not achieving national liberation, by chance?

I support liberation, not national liberation, which is just a polite term Marxist-Leninists made up to justify supporting ethnic-nationalist militias in the third world.


The sheer irony of this claim is that the majority of Marxist-Leninists today love Assad, going off various internet forums.

Regardless, there's absolutely nothing particularly "Nationalist" about the Rojava movement, certainly nothing negative about it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
They call me Torra, but you can call me... anytime (☞⌐■_■)☞
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NOTICE 1: Anything depicted IC on this nation does NOT reflect my IRL views or values, and is not endorsed by me.
NOTICE 2: Most RP and every OOC post by me prior to 2023 are no longer endorsed nor tolerated by me. I've since put on my adult pants!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Pasong Tirad
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Founded: May 31, 2007
Democratic Socialists

Postby Pasong Tirad » Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:54 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:Not uncritically, no. I've already mentioned that I do believe they're closely connected both ideologically and through the political organization the KCK. The PKK I'm sure has done some bad shit that's unjustifiable. None of this is proof that the PYD-YPG is somehow the same as the PKK. Literally nothing but a bunch of words stated on the record by a bunch of men in suits and uniforms. I'm more than happy to consider any actual links they've provided.

That they provide arms to one-another is one link. But regardless, the US supports the YPG, they are allies, so if the goal of the US was to discredit the YPG, that would be strange. In fact, the US has invested a lot of diplomatic effort to rebrand the YPG.

I wouldn't be surprised about providing arms to one another, given that the PKK has also been active in the fight against the Islamic State. And that the YPG rebranded itself into the SDF isn't exactly a secret, as the YPG is the Kurdish force, while the SDF is the multiethnic armed forces of North and East Syria. Much like how Rojava rebranded itself first into the Democratic Federation of Northern Syria to show that it's moving away from Kurdish nationalism itself into something more multicultural, and then to the Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria to signify its desires not for independence but for greater autonomy from Syria, as their goal now is no longer to create a Kurdish nation-state but to be free to continue running their democratic confederalist political framework under as an autonomous component of Syria.

Still, none of that proves that the PKK is somehow the same as the PYD-YPG or the SDF. It's Turkey that keeps parroting this nonsense that they are the same entities, and if we're talking about trust here I do honestly prefer to put my trust in leftist militias that have been active and are one of the biggest players in the fight against the Islamic State over the words of the neo-Ottoman, ethnonationalist Erdogan.

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United Muscovite Nations
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Ex-Nation

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:55 pm

Torrocca wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:I support liberation, not national liberation, which is just a polite term Marxist-Leninists made up to justify supporting ethnic-nationalist militias in the third world.


The sheer irony of this claim is that the majority of Marxist-Leninists today love Assad, going off various internet forums.

Regardless, there's absolutely nothing particularly "Nationalist" about the Rojava movement, certainly nothing negative about it.

The nationalist thing about them is that they're trying to establish a Kurdish nation-state in Northern Syria to act as a base to wage struggle in Turkey.
Grumpy Grandpa of the LWDT and RWDT
Kantian with panentheist and Christian beliefs. Rawlsian Socialist. Just completed studies in History and International Relations. Asexual with sex-revulsion.
The world is grey, the mountains old, the forges fire is ashen cold. No harp is wrung, no hammer falls, the darkness dwells in Durin's halls...
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts
Borderline Personality Disorder, currently in treatment. I apologize if I blow up at you. TG me for info, can't discuss publicly because the mods support stigma on mental illness.

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United Muscovite Nations
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:56 pm

Pasong Tirad wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:That they provide arms to one-another is one link. But regardless, the US supports the YPG, they are allies, so if the goal of the US was to discredit the YPG, that would be strange. In fact, the US has invested a lot of diplomatic effort to rebrand the YPG.

I wouldn't be surprised about providing arms to one another, given that the PKK has also been active in the fight against the Islamic State. And that the YPG rebranded itself into the SDF isn't exactly a secret, as the YPG is the Kurdish force, while the SDF is the multiethnic armed forces of North and East Syria. Much like how Rojava rebranded itself first into the Democratic Federation of Northern Syria to show that it's moving away from Kurdish nationalism itself into something more multicultural, and then to the Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria to signify its desires not for independence but for greater autonomy from Syria, as their goal now is no longer to create a Kurdish nation-state but to be free to continue running their democratic confederalist political framework under as an autonomous component of Syria.

Still, none of that proves that the PKK is somehow the same as the PYD-YPG or the SDF. It's Turkey that keeps parroting this nonsense that they are the same entities, and if we're talking about trust here I do honestly prefer to put my trust in leftist militias that have been active and are one of the biggest players in the fight against the Islamic State over the words of the neo-Ottoman, ethnonationalist Erdogan.

It's not just Erdogan who says that, it's the people who bankroll the YPG and who would be in a position to know the links the YPG has.
Grumpy Grandpa of the LWDT and RWDT
Kantian with panentheist and Christian beliefs. Rawlsian Socialist. Just completed studies in History and International Relations. Asexual with sex-revulsion.
The world is grey, the mountains old, the forges fire is ashen cold. No harp is wrung, no hammer falls, the darkness dwells in Durin's halls...
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts
Borderline Personality Disorder, currently in treatment. I apologize if I blow up at you. TG me for info, can't discuss publicly because the mods support stigma on mental illness.

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Nakena
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Founded: May 06, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Nakena » Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:57 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
The sheer irony of this claim is that the majority of Marxist-Leninists today love Assad, going off various internet forums.

Regardless, there's absolutely nothing particularly "Nationalist" about the Rojava movement, certainly nothing negative about it.

The nationalist thing about them is that they're trying to establish a Kurdish nation-state in Northern Syria to act as a base to wage struggle in Turkey.


The moment the wage a struggle the turkish military is going to destroy them.

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Torrocca
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Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:57 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
The sheer irony of this claim is that the majority of Marxist-Leninists today love Assad, going off various internet forums.

Regardless, there's absolutely nothing particularly "Nationalist" about the Rojava movement, certainly nothing negative about it.

The nationalist thing about them is that they're trying to establish a Kurdish nation-state in Northern Syria to act as a base to wage struggle in Turkey.


How the fuck does that make sense, exactly? What the fuck would they gain from giving their strongest bordering neighbor a casus belli to essentially destroy whatever independence they gain?
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They call me Torra, but you can call me... anytime (☞⌐■_■)☞
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NOTICE 1: Anything depicted IC on this nation does NOT reflect my IRL views or values, and is not endorsed by me.
NOTICE 2: Most RP and every OOC post by me prior to 2023 are no longer endorsed nor tolerated by me. I've since put on my adult pants!
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Pasong Tirad
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Pasong Tirad » Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:59 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
The sheer irony of this claim is that the majority of Marxist-Leninists today love Assad, going off various internet forums.

Regardless, there's absolutely nothing particularly "Nationalist" about the Rojava movement, certainly nothing negative about it.

The nationalist thing about them is that they're trying to establish a Kurdish nation-state in Northern Syria to act as a base to wage struggle in Turkey.

No they aren't. You need to actually prove your statements. Their goal is autonomy within Syria. That's why they aren't called Rojava anymore.

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:I wouldn't be surprised about providing arms to one another, given that the PKK has also been active in the fight against the Islamic State. And that the YPG rebranded itself into the SDF isn't exactly a secret, as the YPG is the Kurdish force, while the SDF is the multiethnic armed forces of North and East Syria. Much like how Rojava rebranded itself first into the Democratic Federation of Northern Syria to show that it's moving away from Kurdish nationalism itself into something more multicultural, and then to the Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria to signify its desires not for independence but for greater autonomy from Syria, as their goal now is no longer to create a Kurdish nation-state but to be free to continue running their democratic confederalist political framework under as an autonomous component of Syria.

Still, none of that proves that the PKK is somehow the same as the PYD-YPG or the SDF. It's Turkey that keeps parroting this nonsense that they are the same entities, and if we're talking about trust here I do honestly prefer to put my trust in leftist militias that have been active and are one of the biggest players in the fight against the Islamic State over the words of the neo-Ottoman, ethnonationalist Erdogan.

It's not just Erdogan who says that, it's the people who bankroll the YPG and who would be in a position to know the links the YPG has.

You mean the US? The US who would love to do and say anything that'll keep Turkey in their good graces? The US who's critical NATO ally is already being courted by Russia and would do anything to keep their rebellious love child away from Putin? The US who has literally just made a deal with Turkey to appease them into not invading Northern Syria? Please. I'd love it if you could actually show the connections these generals and secretaries parrot.

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Torrocca
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:00 pm

Pasong Tirad wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:The nationalist thing about them is that they're trying to establish a Kurdish nation-state in Northern Syria to act as a base to wage struggle in Turkey.

No they aren't. You need to actually prove your statements. Their goal is autonomy within Syria. That's why they aren't called Rojava anymore.


... TIL'd they changed their name. "The Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria" is a bit of a mouthful, tbh.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
They call me Torra, but you can call me... anytime (☞⌐■_■)☞
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NOTICE 1: Anything depicted IC on this nation does NOT reflect my IRL views or values, and is not endorsed by me.
NOTICE 2: Most RP and every OOC post by me prior to 2023 are no longer endorsed nor tolerated by me. I've since put on my adult pants!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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United Muscovite Nations
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Ex-Nation

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:01 pm

Pasong Tirad wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:The nationalist thing about them is that they're trying to establish a Kurdish nation-state in Northern Syria to act as a base to wage struggle in Turkey.

No they aren't. You need to actually prove your statements. Their goal is autonomy within Syria. That's why they aren't called Rojava anymore.

They've rebranded themselves because the US told them to. I don't trust Rojava precisely because of its history with Kurdish nationalism. I think they have an agenda that Western anarchists have foolishly fallen for.
Grumpy Grandpa of the LWDT and RWDT
Kantian with panentheist and Christian beliefs. Rawlsian Socialist. Just completed studies in History and International Relations. Asexual with sex-revulsion.
The world is grey, the mountains old, the forges fire is ashen cold. No harp is wrung, no hammer falls, the darkness dwells in Durin's halls...
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts
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Pasong Tirad
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Pasong Tirad » Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:02 pm

Nakena wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:The nationalist thing about them is that they're trying to establish a Kurdish nation-state in Northern Syria to act as a base to wage struggle in Turkey.


The moment the wage a struggle the turkish military is going to destroy them.

Precisely why that goal makes absolutely no sense given that Rojava has a lot to lose if it continues going that route. It's angering a lot of leftist circles I follow online, actually, that they're compromising so much.

Torrocca wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:No they aren't. You need to actually prove your statements. Their goal is autonomy within Syria. That's why they aren't called Rojava anymore.


... TIL'd they changed their name. "The Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria" is a bit of a mouthful, tbh.

It's still commonly called either Rojava or NES. But the name change to Autonomous Administration is a signal that their struggle isn't for independence.

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Torrocca
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:05 pm

Pasong Tirad wrote:
Nakena wrote:
The moment the wage a struggle the turkish military is going to destroy them.

Precisely why that goal makes absolutely no sense given that Rojava has a lot to lose if it continues going that route. It's angering a lot of leftist circles I follow online, actually, that they're compromising so much.


Honestly, I can see why people would be angry about it, but fucking hell they need to get a bit of a grip. Success is meaningless if it gets stomped into the dirt a day later because no security was achieved alongside it.

Torrocca wrote:
... TIL'd they changed their name. "The Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria" is a bit of a mouthful, tbh.

It's still commonly called either Rojava or NES. But the name change to Autonomous Administration is a signal that their struggle isn't for independence.


Fair enough. I need to get more up-to-date with that movement, tbqh.
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They call me Torra, but you can call me... anytime (☞⌐■_■)☞
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NOTICE 1: Anything depicted IC on this nation does NOT reflect my IRL views or values, and is not endorsed by me.
NOTICE 2: Most RP and every OOC post by me prior to 2023 are no longer endorsed nor tolerated by me. I've since put on my adult pants!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Pasong Tirad
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Founded: May 31, 2007
Democratic Socialists

Postby Pasong Tirad » Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:09 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:No they aren't. You need to actually prove your statements. Their goal is autonomy within Syria. That's why they aren't called Rojava anymore.

They've rebranded themselves because the US told them to. I don't trust Rojava precisely because of its history with Kurdish nationalism. I think they have an agenda that Western anarchists have foolishly fallen for.

That's... yeah, alright. That's fair.

But they haven't just "rebranded themselves because the US told them to." The YPG rebranded itself into the SDF not just because America said they should but also because it's a step towards the realization of democratic confederalism. It's a step towards signalling that they're no longer just a bunch of Kurdish nationalists, but that their systems of governance and politics is multucultural and is inclusive of all ethnic groups that live within Northern Syria. That's why one of the co-presidents of NES is an Arab, that's why a bunch of non-Kurdish armed groups are also components of the SDF, notably the Assyrian Christian-led Syriac Military Council, the Turkmen-led Seljuk Brigade (which had IIRC broken up its connections with Turkey due to Turkey favoring the more Islamist and neo-Ottoman groups like the Syrian Turkmen Army).

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Ostroeuropa
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:36 pm

Dumb Ideologies wrote:It's a relatively small band of idiots being used to stereotype a much larger group who have considerably more nuanced, though of course often still dodgy, views. Same as with throwing the word "fascist" about like it's cheap sweeties at Halloween. Even when people focus on the actual people who most closely resemble the meme, it'll be used as a stick to make sweeping and false generalisations.

It's deliberately alarmist babble and twaddle, an overgrown social media communications strategy that's escaped the medium, where each side's meme factory constantly competes to frighten the centrists into picking their side by waving a cardboard cutout caricature of the other side.

The moment anyone starts talking about mainstream figures or movements in the West being SJWs or fascists I tune out, because I'm about to witness shitness.


Doesn't matter if its a minority, they're in power.

https://i.redd.it/xeqew4ufdrx21.png

It's not alarmism if supporting their movement will actually result in nutters taking over policy.

You may as well say it's a small band of idiots ruining the republican party and Mitch McConnel and other anarcho-capitalist nutters shouldn't be used to judge the people who routinely empower them.

The notion that some random fuckers have "Nuance" like you claim is as absurd as taking some moron who claims they are a neo-Nazi seriously when they say they aren't a racist, because they listened to adolf hitler talk about germany and the fatherland and making it strong for germans, but They're the REAL Nazi, because jews are also germans and genocide makes germany weaker so all those poser Nazis who support genocide aren't real Nazis.

It involves taking willfully self-deluded people seriously. You shouldn't. You should laugh at them, mock them, and tell them if they insist on being so ridiculous and pretending to themselves that a swastika isn't a hate symbol, they're not allowed in the building.

Any feminist is such a person. Any idpol leftist is too, given the propensity to side with feminists and others like them.

You say its "Nuance.".

It isn't nuance, it's useful idiocy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot

(I literally don't know a non-derogatory term for describing this phemomanae. I disavow the derogatoriness while supporting the overall observation.).

"Hyuk hyuk, it's about a strong germany equality. The others (The actual leaders of our movement with authority and the people who institute policy, but because the policy is so manifestly shit they have to lie and appeal to other things) aren't really members of our movement."

I *strongly* disagree with you downplaying this observation by pretending its a minority, as well as pretending it's equivalent between the left and the right, because the aforementioned "Neo-nazi" doesn['t exist, nobody is that obstinant and resisting to facts about a hate movement except the left wing idpol types.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:54 pm, edited 7 times in total.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Ostroeuropa
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:57 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:I have other articles, but since you are an SJW yourself, I see no reason to share them. If you actually carry the stupid idea that colleges need to regulate trivial things like costumes or something similar, I see no reason to even bother. No misapplication here.

I don't think it's necessary, but you're blowing it vastly out of proportion. It's some stupid guidelines that don't actually result in anything, just like most of the targets of outrage culture.


The mere fact you think the anti-white and anti-male harm your movement has done is being "Blown vastly out of proportion" is enough to damn you as either poorly informed, rationalizing how your hate movement isn't too bad, or actively malicious.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Democratic Communist Federation
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Democratic Communist Federation » Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:54 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:I support liberation, not national liberation, which is just a polite term Marxist-Leninists made up to justify supporting ethnic-nationalist militias in the third world.


Exactly.
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First American Empire
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Founded: Mar 12, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby First American Empire » Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:56 pm

Torrocca wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:When the goal is to establish a nation-state, the terms are synonymous.


Do you expect them to achieve national liberation from Assad's oppressions by not achieving national liberation, by chance?


United Muscovite Nations wrote:I support liberation, not national liberation, which is just a polite term Marxist-Leninists made up to justify supporting ethnic-nationalist militias in the third world.



I don't want Rojava to establish a Kurdish nation-state. Give them all of Syria instead.
Last edited by First American Empire on Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nakena
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Founded: May 06, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Nakena » Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:58 pm

First American Empire wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Do you expect them to achieve national liberation from Assad's oppressions by not achieving national liberation, by chance?


I don't want Rojava to establish a Kurdish nation-state. Give them all of Syria instead.


That would be interesting.

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Totally Not OEP
Minister
 
Posts: 3023
Founded: Mar 30, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Totally Not OEP » Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:00 am

First American Empire wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
The Zapatistas and Rojava are prime examples meeting all of those criteria.


Both are being protected by states, even if they aren't ruled by them. The Zapatistas are protected from foreign invasion by Mexico, which so far has been content to let them stay anarchist, but would still mobilize troops against any invasion of its de jure territory. Rojava is allied with the United States, and when it went up against Turkey (a different US ally), the US remained neutral and Rojava lost terribly.

A state is always necessary for protection from invasion by other states; it just technically doesn't have to rule all the territory it protects. The only way anarchism can succeed is through military alliances with non-anarchists. (For the record, I think allying with anarchists like Rojava is a good thing.)


Look up how the Zapatistas have seen their education and medical establishments completely collapse lol.
We shoot .223's
We'll take your life
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Pasong Tirad
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11653
Founded: May 31, 2007
Democratic Socialists

Postby Pasong Tirad » Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:02 am

First American Empire wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Do you expect them to achieve national liberation from Assad's oppressions by not achieving national liberation, by chance?


United Muscovite Nations wrote:I support liberation, not national liberation, which is just a polite term Marxist-Leninists made up to justify supporting ethnic-nationalist militias in the third world.



I don't want Rojava to establish a Kurdish nation-state. Give them all of Syria instead.

That can be done by federalizing Syria, and having the many states governed from the bottom-up under the principles of democratic confederalism. It wouldn't exactly be giving Syria to the Kurds, but giving Syria to Bookchin's and Öcalan's political visions.

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Kowani
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44696
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:02 am

Nakena wrote:
First American Empire wrote:
I don't want Rojava to establish a Kurdish nation-state. Give them all of Syria instead.


That would be interesting.

And a catastrophe.
Abolitionism in the North has leagued itself with Radical Democracy, and so the Slave Power was forced to ally itself with the Money Power; that is the great fact of the age.




The triumph of the Democracy is essential to the struggle of popular liberty


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Nakena
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15010
Founded: May 06, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Nakena » Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:15 am

Kowani wrote:
Nakena wrote:
That would be interesting.

And a catastrophe.


I think FAE means that all of Syria should become like Rojava.

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