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LWDT 7: The Earth and Heavens Tremble.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Which Book on Leftist Ideology is Your Preferred Book?

The Communist Manifesto (Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels)
23
18%
The Conquest of Bread (Peter Kropotkin)
24
19%
Das Kapital (Karl Marx)
21
16%
What is Property? (Pierre-Joseph Proudhon)
2
2%
Guerilla Warfare (Che Guevara)
8
6%
Mutual Aid (Peter Kropotkin)
2
2%
Profit Over People (Noam Chomsky)
4
3%
The Ego and Its Own (Max Stirner)
8
6%
Debt: The First 5,000 Years (David Graeber)
5
4%
Other (Please Explain)
32
25%
 
Total votes : 129

User avatar
Bojikami
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11276
Founded: Jul 24, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Bojikami » Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:42 am

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Pushing a failed economic system alongside it does not rehabilitate intersectionality.

Actually it does. Activism without ideological backing is doomed to failure, or worse, regression.
Be gay, do crime.
23 year old nonbinary trans woman(She/They), also I'm a Marxist-Leninist.
Economic Left/Right: -10.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.33

User avatar
New yugoslavaia
Minister
 
Posts: 2227
Founded: Jun 07, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby New yugoslavaia » Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:08 am

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
New yugoslavaia wrote:Hey, I've come up with my own sort of political spectrum. Feel free to critique.
Basically, it goes something like this...

Both the left and the right are split into 3x3 boxes. The middle row would go like "Centre-moderate-far". The top would catalog the more authoritarian ideologies while bottom row is the opposite. However, these two boxes would be split into 3 boxes, each one representing the afformentioned trio of states (E.g. Moderate left would be centre-moderate, true moderate and far-moderate). The centre would still exist but only as a single collum as centre-right and centre-left would exist as the centre boxes, so only truly centrist ideologies and their authoritarian and liberal/anarchist variants would sit there.

Might expand on this later.

You mean like this?

Image


Not quite. How did you do that?
Yugoslavia's back baby...

How the hell did this happen?
Well...we don't actually know. Sure, there's factbooks and stuff, but they don't really matter because the owner of this account is a lazy, unproductive, indecisive loser who may or may not have a thing for half human hybrids, big mechs and even bigger ships.
Is it a reunited Yugoslavia in the 21st century? Is a rebel colony world in the far future? Who knows, who cares?
New Yugoslavia just is.

User avatar
The Xenopolis Confederation
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8437
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:09 am

New yugoslavaia wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:You mean like this?

Image


Not quite. How did you do that?

What were you thinking of then?

Mircrosoft Word.
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Progressive Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0.5
Social: -8
I'm a 21 year old Australian. Liberalism with a dash of lolbert. I don't do as much research as I should.

I'm a MTF transgender person, so I'd prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

User avatar
Dumb Ideologies
Post Czar
 
Posts: 45251
Founded: Sep 30, 2007
Mother Knows Best State

Postby Dumb Ideologies » Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:15 am

The political spectrum can only properly be modelled in a badly-modded flight simulator
Are these "human rights" in the room with us right now?
★彡 Professional pessimist. Reactionary socialist and gamer liberationist. Coffee addict. Fun at parties 彡★
Freedom is when people agree with you, and the more people you can force to act like they agree the freer society is
You are the trolley problem's conductor. You could stop the train in time but you do not. Nobody knows you're part of the equation. You satisfy your bloodlust and get away with it every time

User avatar
Bojikami
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11276
Founded: Jul 24, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Bojikami » Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:19 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:The political spectrum can only properly be modelled in a badly-modded flight simulator

Nah. Kerbal Space Program.
Be gay, do crime.
23 year old nonbinary trans woman(She/They), also I'm a Marxist-Leninist.
Economic Left/Right: -10.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.33

User avatar
The Greater Ohio Valley
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7076
Founded: Jan 19, 2013
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Greater Ohio Valley » Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:23 am

Bojikami wrote:
Dumb Ideologies wrote:The political spectrum can only properly be modelled in a badly-modded flight simulator

Nah. Kerbal Space Program.

Nah. LSD Dream Emulator.
Fly me to the moon on an irradiated manhole cover.
- Free speech
- Weapons rights
- Democracy
- LGBTQ+ rights
- Racial equality
- Gender/sexual equality
- Voting rights
- Universal healthcare
- Workers rights
- Drug decriminalization
- Cannabis legalization
- Due process
- Rehabilitative justice
- Religious freedom
- Choice
- Environmental protections
- Secularism
ANTI
- Fascism/Nazism
- Conservatism
- Nationalism
- Authoritarianism/Totalitarianism
- Traditionalism
- Ethnic/racial supremacy
- Racism
- Sexism
- Transphobia
- Homophobia
- Religious extremism
- Laissez-faire capitalism
- Warmongering
- Accelerationism
- Isolationism
- Theocracy
- Anti-intellectualism
- Climate change denialism

User avatar
Bojikami
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11276
Founded: Jul 24, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Bojikami » Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:42 am

The Greater Ohio Valley wrote:
Bojikami wrote:Nah. Kerbal Space Program.

Nah. LSD Dream Emulator.

The DMT aliens told me that the true shape of the political spectrum is a circle. You're all the same. We live in a world. Gangweed 2020
Be gay, do crime.
23 year old nonbinary trans woman(She/They), also I'm a Marxist-Leninist.
Economic Left/Right: -10.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.33

User avatar
The Xenopolis Confederation
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8437
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:42 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:The political spectrum can only properly be modelled in a badly-modded flight simulator

*fight simulator.
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Progressive Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0.5
Social: -8
I'm a 21 year old Australian. Liberalism with a dash of lolbert. I don't do as much research as I should.

I'm a MTF transgender person, so I'd prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

User avatar
Bojikami
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11276
Founded: Jul 24, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Bojikami » Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:44 am

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Dumb Ideologies wrote:The political spectrum can only properly be modelled in a badly-modded flight simulator

*fight simulator.

All political stances are fortnite. All revolutions or political actions are but the imposition of #1 Battle Royale unto other sections of society by the gamers.
-Friedrich Engels
Be gay, do crime.
23 year old nonbinary trans woman(She/They), also I'm a Marxist-Leninist.
Economic Left/Right: -10.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.33

User avatar
New yugoslavaia
Minister
 
Posts: 2227
Founded: Jun 07, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby New yugoslavaia » Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:57 am

Bojikami wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:*fight simulator.

All political stances are fortnite. All revolutions or political actions are but the imposition of #1 Battle Royale unto other sections of society by the gamers.
-Friedrich Engels


Gamers of the world, unite!
-Adolf Luther Tito
Yugoslavia's back baby...

How the hell did this happen?
Well...we don't actually know. Sure, there's factbooks and stuff, but they don't really matter because the owner of this account is a lazy, unproductive, indecisive loser who may or may not have a thing for half human hybrids, big mechs and even bigger ships.
Is it a reunited Yugoslavia in the 21st century? Is a rebel colony world in the far future? Who knows, who cares?
New Yugoslavia just is.

User avatar
New yugoslavaia
Minister
 
Posts: 2227
Founded: Jun 07, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby New yugoslavaia » Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:02 am

I will try and make a better representation later. Going out for lunch.
Yugoslavia's back baby...

How the hell did this happen?
Well...we don't actually know. Sure, there's factbooks and stuff, but they don't really matter because the owner of this account is a lazy, unproductive, indecisive loser who may or may not have a thing for half human hybrids, big mechs and even bigger ships.
Is it a reunited Yugoslavia in the 21st century? Is a rebel colony world in the far future? Who knows, who cares?
New Yugoslavia just is.

User avatar
Cekoviu
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16954
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Cekoviu » Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:52 am

New yugoslavaia wrote:
Kowani wrote:I don’t suppose you could draw this?


I can try. I only really have Ms paint though.

git inkscape
pro: women's rights
anti: men's rights

User avatar
LiberNovusAmericae
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6942
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:30 am

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
New yugoslavaia wrote:Hey, I've come up with my own sort of political spectrum. Feel free to critique.
Basically, it goes something like this...

Both the left and the right are split into 3x3 boxes. The middle row would go like "Centre-moderate-far". The top would catalog the more authoritarian ideologies while bottom row is the opposite. However, these two boxes would be split into 3 boxes, each one representing the afformentioned trio of states (E.g. Moderate left would be centre-moderate, true moderate and far-moderate). The centre would still exist but only as a single collum as centre-right and centre-left would exist as the centre boxes, so only truly centrist ideologies and their authoritarian and liberal/anarchist variants would sit there.

Might expand on this later.

You mean like this?

Image

Unfortunately, what constitutes right-wing politics is debatable. Some people view being pro-capitalist as essential to being a right-winger, while others think social conservatism or being socially reactionary is enough. Some people like Richard Spencer are viewed as right-wing, despite adopting left-wing views on economics. Sometimes some right-libertarians are viewed as centrists due to their social liberalism alongside support for capitalism, others call them right-wing.

User avatar
Kowani
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44696
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:36 am

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:You mean like this?

Image

Unfortunately, what constitutes right-wing politics is debatable. Some people view being pro-capitalist as essential to being a right-winger, while others think social conservatism or being socially reactionary is enough. Some people like Richard Spencer are viewed as right-wing, despite adopting left-wing views on economics. Sometimes some right-libertarians are viewed as centrists due to their social liberalism alongside support for capitalism, others call them right-wing.

It’s almost like things are a spectrum!
Abolitionism in the North has leagued itself with Radical Democracy, and so the Slave Power was forced to ally itself with the Money Power; that is the great fact of the age.




The triumph of the Democracy is essential to the struggle of popular liberty


Currently Rehabilitating: Martin Van Buren, Benjamin Harrison, and Woodrow Wilson
Currently Vilifying: George Washington, Theodore Roosevelt, and Jimmy Carter

User avatar
LiberNovusAmericae
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6942
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:03 am

Kowani wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Unfortunately, what constitutes right-wing politics is debatable. Some people view being pro-capitalist as essential to being a right-winger, while others think social conservatism or being socially reactionary is enough. Some people like Richard Spencer are viewed as right-wing, despite adopting left-wing views on economics. Sometimes some right-libertarians are viewed as centrists due to their social liberalism alongside support for capitalism, others call them right-wing.

It’s almost like things are a spectrum!

A spectrum that doesn't explain everything, unfortunately. Your ill used sarcasm is noted.

User avatar
New yugoslavaia
Minister
 
Posts: 2227
Founded: Jun 07, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby New yugoslavaia » Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:00 pm

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png

Rough and incomplete representation.
I am aware of the difference between social and economic left/right wing ideas. This is just an early draft. Will expand on it.
Yugoslavia's back baby...

How the hell did this happen?
Well...we don't actually know. Sure, there's factbooks and stuff, but they don't really matter because the owner of this account is a lazy, unproductive, indecisive loser who may or may not have a thing for half human hybrids, big mechs and even bigger ships.
Is it a reunited Yugoslavia in the 21st century? Is a rebel colony world in the far future? Who knows, who cares?
New Yugoslavia just is.

User avatar
Kowani
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44696
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:09 pm

New yugoslavaia wrote:https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/574926204524560398/607678688388972565/unknown.png

Rough and incomplete representation.
I am aware of the difference between social and economic left/right wing ideas. This is just an early draft. Will expand on it.

https://youtu.be/FyWHTsoYPbA
Abolitionism in the North has leagued itself with Radical Democracy, and so the Slave Power was forced to ally itself with the Money Power; that is the great fact of the age.




The triumph of the Democracy is essential to the struggle of popular liberty


Currently Rehabilitating: Martin Van Buren, Benjamin Harrison, and Woodrow Wilson
Currently Vilifying: George Washington, Theodore Roosevelt, and Jimmy Carter

User avatar
The Xenopolis Confederation
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8437
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:26 pm

Kowani wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Unfortunately, what constitutes right-wing politics is debatable. Some people view being pro-capitalist as essential to being a right-winger, while others think social conservatism or being socially reactionary is enough. Some people like Richard Spencer are viewed as right-wing, despite adopting left-wing views on economics. Sometimes some right-libertarians are viewed as centrists due to their social liberalism alongside support for capitalism, others call them right-wing.

It’s almost like things are a spectrum!

Or two or three or nine.
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Progressive Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0.5
Social: -8
I'm a 21 year old Australian. Liberalism with a dash of lolbert. I don't do as much research as I should.

I'm a MTF transgender person, so I'd prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

User avatar
The Xenopolis Confederation
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8437
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:28 pm

New yugoslavaia wrote:https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/574926204524560398/607678688388972565/unknown.png

Rough and incomplete representation.
I am aware of the difference between social and economic left/right wing ideas. This is just an early draft. Will expand on it.

Tag yourself, I'm Lib TCR
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Progressive Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0.5
Social: -8
I'm a 21 year old Australian. Liberalism with a dash of lolbert. I don't do as much research as I should.

I'm a MTF transgender person, so I'd prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

User avatar
Kowani
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44696
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:28 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Kowani wrote:It’s almost like things are a spectrum!

Or two or three or nine.

Well yes, that as well.
Abolitionism in the North has leagued itself with Radical Democracy, and so the Slave Power was forced to ally itself with the Money Power; that is the great fact of the age.




The triumph of the Democracy is essential to the struggle of popular liberty


Currently Rehabilitating: Martin Van Buren, Benjamin Harrison, and Woodrow Wilson
Currently Vilifying: George Washington, Theodore Roosevelt, and Jimmy Carter

User avatar
Nakena
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15010
Founded: May 06, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Nakena » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:18 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Kowani wrote:It’s almost like things are a spectrum!

Or two or three or nine.


Multidimensional spectrum.

User avatar
LiberNovusAmericae
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6942
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:56 pm

Nakena wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Or two or three or nine.


Multidimensional spectrum.

This ^^ A neo-Nazi and an Ancap are both considered "far-right," but the reasoning as to why are different. One believes in market caused hierarchy while the other supports state sanctioned extermination of "undesirables."
Last edited by LiberNovusAmericae on Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
North German Realm
Senator
 
Posts: 4494
Founded: Jan 27, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby North German Realm » Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:03 pm

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Nakena wrote:
Multidimensional spectrum.

This ^^ A neo-Nazi and an Ancap are both considered "far-right," but the reasoning as to why are different. One believes in market caused hierarchy while the other supports state sanctioned extermination of "undesirables."

Similarly, an Anarchist and a Marxist-Leninist would be "Far-left". The problem is, they're both far (i.e. extreme) and both left (at least from an economic point of view.)
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User avatar
Democratic Communist Federation
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5295
Founded: Jul 14, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Democratic Communist Federation » Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:57 am

North German Realm wrote:Similarly, an Anarchist and a Marxist-Leninist would be "Far-left". The problem is, they're both far (i.e. extreme) and both left (at least from an economic point of view.)


And libertarian Marxists are generally regarded as further to the left that [edit: than] Marxist-Leninists. However, there are always exceptions, such as Antonio Gramsci and György (Georg) Lukács who were both, for lack of a better term, libertarian Marxist Leninists.
Last edited by Democratic Communist Federation on Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ššālōm ʿălēyəḵẹm, Mōšẹh ʾẠhărōn hạ•Lēwiy bẹn Hẹʿrəšẹʿl (Hebrew/Yiddish, מֹשֶׁה אַהֲרֹן הַלֵוִי בֶּן הֶערְשֶׁעל)
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User avatar
LiberNovusAmericae
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6942
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:03 am

Democratic Communist Federation wrote:
North German Realm wrote:Similarly, an Anarchist and a Marxist-Leninist would be "Far-left". The problem is, they're both far (i.e. extreme) and both left (at least from an economic point of view.)


And libertarian Marxists are generally regarded as further to the left that [edit: than] Marxist-Leninists. However, there are always exceptions, such as Antonio Gramsci and György (Georg) Lukács who were both, for lack of a better term, libertarian Marxist Leninists.

I question their "libertarianism," as Lenin was a dictator.

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