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LWDT 7: The Earth and Heavens Tremble.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Which Book on Leftist Ideology is Your Preferred Book?

The Communist Manifesto (Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels)
23
18%
The Conquest of Bread (Peter Kropotkin)
24
19%
Das Kapital (Karl Marx)
21
16%
What is Property? (Pierre-Joseph Proudhon)
2
2%
Guerilla Warfare (Che Guevara)
8
6%
Mutual Aid (Peter Kropotkin)
2
2%
Profit Over People (Noam Chomsky)
4
3%
The Ego and Its Own (Max Stirner)
8
6%
Debt: The First 5,000 Years (David Graeber)
5
4%
Other (Please Explain)
32
25%
 
Total votes : 129

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Cekoviu
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Ex-Nation

Postby Cekoviu » Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:02 pm

Nakena wrote:
Democratic Communist Federation wrote:
Intersectionality, which I use in my own work, examines the capitalist world system as multidimensional, not one dimensional (usually economic).


So intersectionalism is all about getting screwed over by the powers of capitalism from multible angles in various dimensions?

That sounds quite masochist tbh

mmm, interdimensional kink
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Nakena
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Ex-Nation

Postby Nakena » Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:25 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
Nakena wrote:
So intersectionalism is all about getting screwed over by the powers of capitalism from multible angles in various dimensions?

That sounds quite masochist tbh

mmm, interdimensional kink


They're the best ones.

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Kowani
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:20 am

Cekoviu wrote:
Nakena wrote:
So intersectionalism is all about getting screwed over by the powers of capitalism from multible angles in various dimensions?

That sounds quite masochist tbh

mmm, interdimensional kink

Doesn’t Cthulhu have tentacles?
Abolitionism in the North has leagued itself with Radical Democracy, and so the Slave Power was forced to ally itself with the Money Power; that is the great fact of the age.




The triumph of the Democracy is essential to the struggle of popular liberty


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Dumb Ideologies
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Mother Knows Best State

Postby Dumb Ideologies » Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:08 am

Intersectionality is a strategy of supporting non-class identity politics groups and then being surprised when they're co-opted by capitalism and want nothing more to do with you.
Are these "human rights" in the room with us right now?
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The Xenopolis Confederation
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Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:18 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Intersectionality is a strategy of supporting non-class identity politics groups and then being surprised when they're co-opted by capitalism and want nothing more to do with you.

Shut up commie class reductionist.
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Bojikami
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Ex-Nation

Postby Bojikami » Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:03 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Intersectionality is a strategy of supporting non-class identity politics groups and then being surprised when they're co-opted by capitalism and want nothing more to do with you.

That's implying that intersectionality excludes class, which, it doesn't.

The liberal take on it, however does. Hence the problems which arise as a result (marginalized people seeing other marginalized people as an enemy, not as fellow marginalized people)
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Ostroeuropa
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:02 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Intersectionality is a strategy of supporting non-class identity politics groups and then being surprised when they're co-opted by capitalism and want nothing more to do with you.


It's a means of de-legitimizing some kinds of people from advocating for their interests along certain vectors by claiming they are oppressors.
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There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Cekoviu
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Ex-Nation

Postby Cekoviu » Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:59 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Intersectionality is a strategy of supporting non-class identity politics groups and then being surprised when they're co-opted by capitalism and want nothing more to do with you.

I'm vaguely intersectionalist, include class, and am unsurprised by capitalism co-opting the struggle for rights. What am I?
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Northern Davincia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Northern Davincia » Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:06 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Intersectionality is a strategy of supporting non-class identity politics groups and then being surprised when they're co-opted by capitalism and want nothing more to do with you.

I don't really foresee the total dismantling of capitalism when it remains highly adaptive by nature.
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Dumb Ideologies
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Mother Knows Best State

Postby Dumb Ideologies » Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:07 am

Cekoviu wrote:
Dumb Ideologies wrote:Intersectionality is a strategy of supporting non-class identity politics groups and then being surprised when they're co-opted by capitalism and want nothing more to do with you.

I'm vaguely intersectionalist, include class, and am unsurprised by capitalism co-opting the struggle for rights. What am I?


Enigmatron 2000.
Are these "human rights" in the room with us right now?
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Freedom is when people agree with you, and the more people you can force to act like they agree the freer society is
You are the trolley problem's conductor. You could stop the train in time but you do not. Nobody knows you're part of the equation. You satisfy your bloodlust and get away with it every time

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Ostroeuropa
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:17 am

Stolen from /r/socialism regarding;
https://youtu.be/FN7r0Rr1Qyc

Fascism must be one of the primary concerns of Socialists, from the very beginning of our emancipatory project Fascism has always stood as the strongest and final anti-revolutionary force, even today we see it in action with the rise of Syriza in Greece practically parallel with the rise of Golden Dawn.

The reason for this is that Fascism is quintessentially a reaction to Marxism, it's very existence is sadly predicated by ours, Socialists need to understand this especially that the Fascist ideology is not simply extreme right wing in the way Libertarianism and fundamental Conservatism is but it in fact lives the guise of the Left Wing using both anti-consumerists and even-capitalist rhetoric as it is much more so than simply an ideology of profit, it is the last recourse of the capitalist system itself when threatened by us.

This is why I linked this performance, it perfectly captures the spirit of how the Fascist ideology entraps the working class, often Fascists are dismissed by Leftists, and Liberals especially as being perceived simply ignorant racists screaming on a podium, something no rational educated person today would get fooled by, this leads to an extremely dangerous underestimation of their threat.

Unfortunately it far more nuanced and seductive than that, what the Fascist ideology expresses is the justified anger of the loss of traditional communal life and values, against a world in which the search for profit destroys all in it's way, the Fascist stands up and beckons a return to this ideal of their authentic culture against the Capitalists themselves, to de-alienate themselves not as another cog in a inhumane process but to place ourselves as a special people, to create a grand narrative of life that revolves around you, this is why Capitalists would far rather keeping up the Liberal economy rejected by Fascism, but they must endorse this ideology against their financial interests because of the far greater risk of the ultimate destruction of their class.

In this grand narrative then what must be rejected by Fascists stronger than anything else is any concept of Historical Materialism, this very theory alienates us and our nation not as part of the legacy of a noble and meaningful history but as an arbitrary formation of materialist relations, Europe is not the master continent because of it's convenient geographic location but because the European people are greater than all others, it does not require a change in the system of production to improve the conditions of the people but simply the will and intellect of a great man to lead us, it is not because of a faceless system of exploitation and class relations that you and your community are suffering but is because of the evil Jew.

We must beware of Fascism above all else because it is our very shadow.


I like this take, but think that socialists cannot fight this threat without adopting those national and traditional elements and celebrating them rather than opposing nationalism and so on, they can support international solidarity instead and left-nationalism based around communalism and shared culture, supporting other nations in doing this too.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:24 am, edited 3 times in total.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Hanafuridake
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Hanafuridake » Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:26 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:I like this take, but think that socialists cannot fight this threat without adopting those national and traditional elements and celebrating them rather than opposing nationalism and so on, they can support international solidarity instead and left-nationalism based around communalism and shared culture, supporting other nations in doing this too.


What national and traditional elements of Welsh or British history do you adopt?
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Ostroeuropa
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:29 am

Hanafuridake wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:I like this take, but think that socialists cannot fight this threat without adopting those national and traditional elements and celebrating them rather than opposing nationalism and so on, they can support international solidarity instead and left-nationalism based around communalism and shared culture, supporting other nations in doing this too.


What national and traditional elements of Welsh or British history do you adopt?


The disruption of these elements and alienation of people from their culture is part of the grievance against capitalism and its relentless maximization of profit, so this is a kind of "Well if you don't like capitalism why buy things" response if it was meant in terms of "Well what do you do about it".

If it's meant as a question in terms of what should be adopted, i'd say probably rituals and festivals surrounding the pagan religion and syncreticism with christianity, emphasis on family structures and clan ties, heathenry and naturalism, nationalism, and so on. There's also food and the like, as well as reading the appropriate texts in the discourse of the civilization.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:36 am, edited 3 times in total.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Nova Cyberia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Nova Cyberia » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:09 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Intersectionality is a strategy of supporting non-class identity politics groups and then being surprised when they're co-opted by capitalism and want nothing more to do with you.

Co-opting people is fairly easy when the alternative one is presented with is lunacy.
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Democratic Communist Federation
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Democratic Communist Federation » Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:15 pm

Bojikami wrote:That's implying that intersectionality excludes class, which, it doesn't.

The liberal take on it, however does. Hence the problems which arise as a result (marginalized people seeing other marginalized people as an enemy, not as fellow marginalized people)


Intersectionality was developed by a Leftist, not a liberal. If liberals distort is, that is their own problem.
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LiberNovusAmericae
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Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Sat Aug 03, 2019 7:01 pm

Pushing a failed economic system alongside it does not rehabilitate intersectionality.

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The Greater Ohio Valley
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Greater Ohio Valley » Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:09 am

Kowani wrote:I am authoritarian, although I’m not sure if totalitarian is accurate...

Well, totalitarianism is a system of government that is centralized and dictatorial and requires complete subservience to the state, so to me there’s not much of a difference. No matter which I’m still deathly afraid of it.

EDIT: Fixed quote.
Last edited by The Greater Ohio Valley on Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Xenopolis Confederation
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Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:11 am

The Greater Ohio Valley wrote:
Kowani wrote:I’ve said before, I’m deathly afraid of authoritarianism and totalitarianism.

Well, totalitarianism is a system of government that is centralized and dictatorial and requires complete subservience to the state, so to me there’s not much of a difference. No matter which I’m still deathly afraid of it.

Why did you edit that quote?
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New yugoslavaia
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Ex-Nation

Postby New yugoslavaia » Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:24 am

Hey, I've come up with my own sort of political spectrum. Feel free to critique.
Basically, it goes something like this...

Both the left and the right are split into 3x3 boxes. The middle row would go like "Centre-moderate-far". The top would catalog the more authoritarian ideologies while bottom row is the opposite. However, these two boxes would be split into 3 boxes, each one representing the afformentioned trio of states (E.g. Moderate left would be centre-moderate, true moderate and far-moderate). The centre would still exist but only as a single collum as centre-right and centre-left would exist as the centre boxes, so only truly centrist ideologies and their authoritarian and liberal/anarchist variants would sit there.

Might expand on this later.
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The Greater Ohio Valley
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Greater Ohio Valley » Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:26 am

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
The Greater Ohio Valley wrote:Well, totalitarianism is a system of government that is centralized and dictatorial and requires complete subservience to the state, so to me there’s not much of a difference. No matter which I’m still deathly afraid of it.

Why did you edit that quote?

I pressed the wrong series of buttons when I tried to make a new post, so I accidentally edited it instead. That’s my bad.
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- Due process
- Rehabilitative justice
- Religious freedom
- Choice
- Environmental protections
- Secularism
ANTI
- Fascism/Nazism
- Conservatism
- Nationalism
- Authoritarianism/Totalitarianism
- Traditionalism
- Ethnic/racial supremacy
- Racism
- Sexism
- Transphobia
- Homophobia
- Religious extremism
- Laissez-faire capitalism
- Warmongering
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The Greater Ohio Valley
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Greater Ohio Valley » Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:28 am

Now fixed.
Fly me to the moon on an irradiated manhole cover.
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- Democracy
- LGBTQ+ rights
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- Gender/sexual equality
- Voting rights
- Universal healthcare
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- Drug decriminalization
- Cannabis legalization
- Due process
- Rehabilitative justice
- Religious freedom
- Choice
- Environmental protections
- Secularism
ANTI
- Fascism/Nazism
- Conservatism
- Nationalism
- Authoritarianism/Totalitarianism
- Traditionalism
- Ethnic/racial supremacy
- Racism
- Sexism
- Transphobia
- Homophobia
- Religious extremism
- Laissez-faire capitalism
- Warmongering
- Accelerationism
- Isolationism
- Theocracy
- Anti-intellectualism
- Climate change denialism

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Kowani
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:36 am

New yugoslavaia wrote:Hey, I've come up with my own sort of political spectrum. Feel free to critique.
Basically, it goes something like this...

Both the left and the right are split into 3x3 boxes. The middle row would go like "Centre-moderate-far". The top would catalog the more authoritarian ideologies while bottom row is the opposite. However, these two boxes would be split into 3 boxes, each one representing the afformentioned trio of states (E.g. Moderate left would be centre-moderate, true moderate and far-moderate). The centre would still exist but only as a single collum as centre-right and centre-left would exist as the centre boxes, so only truly centrist ideologies and their authoritarian and liberal/anarchist variants would sit there.

Might expand on this later.

I don’t suppose you could draw this?
Abolitionism in the North has leagued itself with Radical Democracy, and so the Slave Power was forced to ally itself with the Money Power; that is the great fact of the age.




The triumph of the Democracy is essential to the struggle of popular liberty


Currently Rehabilitating: Martin Van Buren, Benjamin Harrison, and Woodrow Wilson
Currently Vilifying: George Washington, Theodore Roosevelt, and Jimmy Carter

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New yugoslavaia
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Ex-Nation

Postby New yugoslavaia » Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:11 am

Kowani wrote:
New yugoslavaia wrote:Hey, I've come up with my own sort of political spectrum. Feel free to critique.
Basically, it goes something like this...

Both the left and the right are split into 3x3 boxes. The middle row would go like "Centre-moderate-far". The top would catalog the more authoritarian ideologies while bottom row is the opposite. However, these two boxes would be split into 3 boxes, each one representing the afformentioned trio of states (E.g. Moderate left would be centre-moderate, true moderate and far-moderate). The centre would still exist but only as a single collum as centre-right and centre-left would exist as the centre boxes, so only truly centrist ideologies and their authoritarian and liberal/anarchist variants would sit there.

Might expand on this later.

I don’t suppose you could draw this?


I can try. I only really have Ms paint though.
Yugoslavia's back baby...

How the hell did this happen?
Well...we don't actually know. Sure, there's factbooks and stuff, but they don't really matter because the owner of this account is a lazy, unproductive, indecisive loser who may or may not have a thing for half human hybrids, big mechs and even bigger ships.
Is it a reunited Yugoslavia in the 21st century? Is a rebel colony world in the far future? Who knows, who cares?
New Yugoslavia just is.

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The Xenopolis Confederation
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8437
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:19 am

New yugoslavaia wrote:Hey, I've come up with my own sort of political spectrum. Feel free to critique.
Basically, it goes something like this...

Both the left and the right are split into 3x3 boxes. The middle row would go like "Centre-moderate-far". The top would catalog the more authoritarian ideologies while bottom row is the opposite. However, these two boxes would be split into 3 boxes, each one representing the afformentioned trio of states (E.g. Moderate left would be centre-moderate, true moderate and far-moderate). The centre would still exist but only as a single collum as centre-right and centre-left would exist as the centre boxes, so only truly centrist ideologies and their authoritarian and liberal/anarchist variants would sit there.

Might expand on this later.

You mean like this?

Image
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Progressive Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0.5
Social: -8
I'm a 21 year old Australian. Liberalism with a dash of lolbert. I don't do as much research as I should.

I'm a MTF transgender person, so I'd prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

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The Greater Ohio Valley
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7076
Founded: Jan 19, 2013
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Greater Ohio Valley » Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:35 am

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
New yugoslavaia wrote:Hey, I've come up with my own sort of political spectrum. Feel free to critique.
Basically, it goes something like this...

Both the left and the right are split into 3x3 boxes. The middle row would go like "Centre-moderate-far". The top would catalog the more authoritarian ideologies while bottom row is the opposite. However, these two boxes would be split into 3 boxes, each one representing the afformentioned trio of states (E.g. Moderate left would be centre-moderate, true moderate and far-moderate). The centre would still exist but only as a single collum as centre-right and centre-left would exist as the centre boxes, so only truly centrist ideologies and their authoritarian and liberal/anarchist variants would sit there.

Might expand on this later.

You mean like this?

Image


Looking at that I have to wonder, do “true moderates” actually exist? Cuz, to me, a true moderate would be someone who has almost literally no political opinions on anything, and everyone generally has an opinion on everything.
Fly me to the moon on an irradiated manhole cover.
- Free speech
- Weapons rights
- Democracy
- LGBTQ+ rights
- Racial equality
- Gender/sexual equality
- Voting rights
- Universal healthcare
- Workers rights
- Drug decriminalization
- Cannabis legalization
- Due process
- Rehabilitative justice
- Religious freedom
- Choice
- Environmental protections
- Secularism
ANTI
- Fascism/Nazism
- Conservatism
- Nationalism
- Authoritarianism/Totalitarianism
- Traditionalism
- Ethnic/racial supremacy
- Racism
- Sexism
- Transphobia
- Homophobia
- Religious extremism
- Laissez-faire capitalism
- Warmongering
- Accelerationism
- Isolationism
- Theocracy
- Anti-intellectualism
- Climate change denialism

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