NATION

PASSWORD

LWDT 7: The Earth and Heavens Tremble.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Advertisement

Remove ads

Which Book on Leftist Ideology is Your Preferred Book?

The Communist Manifesto (Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels)
23
18%
The Conquest of Bread (Peter Kropotkin)
24
19%
Das Kapital (Karl Marx)
21
16%
What is Property? (Pierre-Joseph Proudhon)
2
2%
Guerilla Warfare (Che Guevara)
8
6%
Mutual Aid (Peter Kropotkin)
2
2%
Profit Over People (Noam Chomsky)
4
3%
The Ego and Its Own (Max Stirner)
8
6%
Debt: The First 5,000 Years (David Graeber)
5
4%
Other (Please Explain)
32
25%
 
Total votes : 129

User avatar
United Muscovite Nations
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 25668
Founded: Feb 01, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:05 pm

Trotskylvania wrote:
Kowani wrote:Who the fuck defends Pol Pot or Idi Amin?

Oh buddy do I have a surprise for you

Oh thank God you're back.
Grumpy Grandpa of the LWDT and RWDT
Kantian with panentheist and Christian beliefs. Rawlsian Socialist. Just completed studies in History and International Relations. Asexual with sex-revulsion.
The world is grey, the mountains old, the forges fire is ashen cold. No harp is wrung, no hammer falls, the darkness dwells in Durin's halls...
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts
Borderline Personality Disorder, currently in treatment. I apologize if I blow up at you. TG me for info, can't discuss publicly because the mods support stigma on mental illness.

User avatar
Kowani
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24260
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:17 pm


Torra, both of your sources explicitly say that even though there’s a lot left to go and that the decrease has slowed down, that poverty is still decreasing, which is what I’ve been saying this whole time.
Spanish-American Atheist.
“The time has come to call evil out as evil, and we shall not apologize for naming brutality.”
NSG's resident data enthusiast.
Ni dios, ni rey, ni patria, ni amo


Telconi wrote:Every once in a while Kowani does have a decent point.

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26912
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Torrocca » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:18 pm

Kowani wrote:

Torra, both of your sources explicitly say that even though there’s a lot left to go and that the decrease has slowed down, that poverty is still decreasing, which is what I’ve been saying this whole time.


... I mean, that's fair enough. It's still an overall incredibly shitty situation, though.
Communist now and forever.
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - [b]Buenaventura Durruti

"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

User avatar
Kowani
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24260
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:22 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Kowani wrote:Torra, both of your sources explicitly say that even though there’s a lot left to go and that the decrease has slowed down, that poverty is still decreasing, which is what I’ve been saying this whole time.


... I mean, that's fair enough. It's still an overall incredibly shitty situation, though.

I would argue that if you take into account how absolutely terrible much of our history has been, it is not “overall shitty”, but it is definitely terrible.
Spanish-American Atheist.
“The time has come to call evil out as evil, and we shall not apologize for naming brutality.”
NSG's resident data enthusiast.
Ni dios, ni rey, ni patria, ni amo


Telconi wrote:Every once in a while Kowani does have a decent point.

User avatar
Trotskylvania
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 17217
Founded: Jul 07, 2006
Ex-Nation

Postby Trotskylvania » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:43 pm

Nova Cyberia wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:Things are objectively getting better and the only one not to notice is you.
And for every instance where my actions bring no harm to others, society can politely screw off. Individual rights are paramount. Those who make their own wealth have demonstrated the merit and intelligence to do so.

A lot of communists have in the past feared economic growth and development, as well as societal welfare programs, would cause their revolution not to occur.

Their ideology is literally predicated on society being as shitty as possible so that people will be desparate enough to adopt their ideas.

No, it's because life as a worker is never good no matter how much you're getting paid, because your life is not your own. You're a factor of a system of production, and the nature of that system is to get as much work out of you in as little time as possible, and pay you as little as it can.

Anyone who thinks that social welfare programs or economic growth makes life hunky dory has a hole in their head. As Marx himself put it, "It is as if, among slaves who have at last got behind the secret of slavery and broken out in rebellion, a slave still in thrall to obsolete notions were to inscribe on the program of the rebellion: Slavery must be abolished because the feeding of slaves in the system of slavery cannot exceed a certain low maximum!"
Your Friendly Neighborhood Ultra - The Left Wing of the Impossible
Putting the '-sadism' in Posadism


"The hell of capitalism is the firm, not the fact that the firm has a boss."- Bordiga

User avatar
Nakena
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11558
Founded: May 06, 2017
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Nakena » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:47 pm

Trotskylvania wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:A lot of communists have in the past feared economic growth and development, as well as societal welfare programs, would cause their revolution not to occur.

Their ideology is literally predicated on society being as shitty as possible so that people will be desparate enough to adopt their ideas.

No, it's because life as a worker is never good no matter how much you're getting paid, because your life is not your own. You're a factor of a system of production, and the nature of that system is to get as much work out of you in as little time as possible, and pay you as little as it can.

Anyone who thinks that social welfare programs or economic growth makes life hunky dory has a hole in their head. As Marx himself put it, "It is as if, among slaves who have at last got behind the secret of slavery and broken out in rebellion, a slave still in thrall to obsolete notions were to inscribe on the program of the rebellion: Slavery must be abolished because the feeding of slaves in the system of slavery cannot exceed a certain low maximum!"


Marxism is a dead end-circut-logic ideology from which there cannot be any escape or freedom within it. Its a prison for the mind.

User avatar
Trotskylvania
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 17217
Founded: Jul 07, 2006
Ex-Nation

Postby Trotskylvania » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:49 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:

Oh thank God you're back.

I have returned from my pilgrimage. What news on the home front?
Your Friendly Neighborhood Ultra - The Left Wing of the Impossible
Putting the '-sadism' in Posadism


"The hell of capitalism is the firm, not the fact that the firm has a boss."- Bordiga

User avatar
Nakena
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11558
Founded: May 06, 2017
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Nakena » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:51 pm

Trotskylvania wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:Oh thank God you're back.

I have returned from my pilgrimage. What news on the home front?


Anti-Bolshevism is on the rise. And so is tankism and blatant Stalin apologism.

Image

User avatar
Trotskylvania
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 17217
Founded: Jul 07, 2006
Ex-Nation

Postby Trotskylvania » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:51 pm

Nakena wrote:
Trotskylvania wrote:No, it's because life as a worker is never good no matter how much you're getting paid, because your life is not your own. You're a factor of a system of production, and the nature of that system is to get as much work out of you in as little time as possible, and pay you as little as it can.

Anyone who thinks that social welfare programs or economic growth makes life hunky dory has a hole in their head. As Marx himself put it, "It is as if, among slaves who have at last got behind the secret of slavery and broken out in rebellion, a slave still in thrall to obsolete notions were to inscribe on the program of the rebellion: Slavery must be abolished because the feeding of slaves in the system of slavery cannot exceed a certain low maximum!"


Marxism is a dead end-circut-logic ideology from which there cannot be any escape or freedom within it. Its a prison for the mind.

I see we're already skipping to the end where the idealist thinks that ideology moves the wheel of history, and they can think their way out of material problems.
Your Friendly Neighborhood Ultra - The Left Wing of the Impossible
Putting the '-sadism' in Posadism


"The hell of capitalism is the firm, not the fact that the firm has a boss."- Bordiga

User avatar
Kowani
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24260
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:53 pm

Nakena wrote:
Trotskylvania wrote:I have returned from my pilgrimage. What news on the home front?


Anti-Bolshevism is on the rise. And so is tankism and blatant Stalin apologism.

Image

To be fair, apologia for everybody is on the rise.
Spanish-American Atheist.
“The time has come to call evil out as evil, and we shall not apologize for naming brutality.”
NSG's resident data enthusiast.
Ni dios, ni rey, ni patria, ni amo


Telconi wrote:Every once in a while Kowani does have a decent point.

User avatar
Nakena
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11558
Founded: May 06, 2017
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Nakena » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:53 pm

Trotskylvania wrote:
Nakena wrote:
Marxism is a dead end-circut-logic ideology from which there cannot be any escape or freedom within it. Its a prison for the mind.

I see we're already skipping to the end where the idealist thinks that ideology moves the wheel of history, and they can think their way out of material problems.


Yeah we're skipping right to the point where all that ideological bullshit is piled up, and then lit on a freaking bonfire. :^)

User avatar
LiberNovusAmericae
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6945
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:53 pm

Nakena wrote:
Trotskylvania wrote:I have returned from my pilgrimage. What news on the home front?


Anti-Bolshevism is on the rise. And so is tankism and blatant Stalin apologism.

Image

Tankies must be barred from government.
China Lied, People Died.
Anti-imperialism is really code for anti-west.
Not to be confused with Novus America! We are NOT the same player.

User avatar
Trotskylvania
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 17217
Founded: Jul 07, 2006
Ex-Nation

Postby Trotskylvania » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:54 pm

Nakena wrote:
Trotskylvania wrote:I see we're already skipping to the end where the idealist thinks that ideology moves the wheel of history, and they can think their way out of material problems.


Yeah we're skipping right to the point where all that ideological bullshit is piled up, and then lit on a freaking bonfire. :^)

You keep using that word. It does not mean what you think it means.
Your Friendly Neighborhood Ultra - The Left Wing of the Impossible
Putting the '-sadism' in Posadism


"The hell of capitalism is the firm, not the fact that the firm has a boss."- Bordiga

User avatar
Nakena
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11558
Founded: May 06, 2017
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Nakena » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:59 pm

Trotskylvania wrote:
Nakena wrote:
Yeah we're skipping right to the point where all that ideological bullshit is piled up, and then lit on a freaking bonfire. :^)

You keep using that word. It does not mean what you think it means.


You know exactly what I mean though.

User avatar
Kowani
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24260
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:01 pm

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Nakena wrote:
Anti-Bolshevism is on the rise. And so is tankism and blatant Stalin apologism.

Image

Tankies must be barred from government.

Aren’t you all about freedom of speech and the free marketplace of ideas?
Spanish-American Atheist.
“The time has come to call evil out as evil, and we shall not apologize for naming brutality.”
NSG's resident data enthusiast.
Ni dios, ni rey, ni patria, ni amo


Telconi wrote:Every once in a while Kowani does have a decent point.

User avatar
LiberNovusAmericae
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6945
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:02 pm

Kowani wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Tankies must be barred from government.

Aren’t you all about freedom of speech and the free marketplace of ideas?

I don't know. Am I?
China Lied, People Died.
Anti-imperialism is really code for anti-west.
Not to be confused with Novus America! We are NOT the same player.

User avatar
Kowani
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24260
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:06 pm

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Kowani wrote:Aren’t you all about freedom of speech and the free marketplace of ideas?

I don't know. Am I?

If I knew, I wouldn’t be asking.
Spanish-American Atheist.
“The time has come to call evil out as evil, and we shall not apologize for naming brutality.”
NSG's resident data enthusiast.
Ni dios, ni rey, ni patria, ni amo


Telconi wrote:Every once in a while Kowani does have a decent point.

User avatar
Jean-Paul Sartre
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1684
Founded: Jun 26, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Jean-Paul Sartre » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:25 pm

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Kowani wrote:Aren’t you all about freedom of speech and the free marketplace of ideas?

I don't know. Am I?

“Supports: Liberty, Capitalism, Libertarianism, Low Taxes, Free Speech, Civic Nationalism, Representative Republics, Secularism, Atheism, Gun Rights”
"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man."
-Heraclitus of Ephesus

User avatar
Kowani
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24260
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:26 pm

Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:I don't know. Am I?

“Supports: Liberty, Capitalism, Libertarianism, Low Taxes, Free Speech, Civic Nationalism, Representative Republics, Secularism, Atheism, Gun Rights”

God, do I feel stupid right now... :oops:
Spanish-American Atheist.
“The time has come to call evil out as evil, and we shall not apologize for naming brutality.”
NSG's resident data enthusiast.
Ni dios, ni rey, ni patria, ni amo


Telconi wrote:Every once in a while Kowani does have a decent point.

User avatar
Nova Cyberia
Senator
 
Posts: 4456
Founded: May 06, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Nova Cyberia » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:42 pm

Trotskylvania wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:A lot of communists have in the past feared economic growth and development, as well as societal welfare programs, would cause their revolution not to occur.

Their ideology is literally predicated on society being as shitty as possible so that people will be desparate enough to adopt their ideas.

No, it's because life as a worker is never good no matter how much you're getting paid, because your life is not your own. You're a factor of a system of production, and the nature of that system is to get as much work out of you in as little time as possible, and pay you as little as it can.

Anyone who thinks that social welfare programs or economic growth makes life hunky dory has a hole in their head. As Marx himself put it, "It is as if, among slaves who have at last got behind the secret of slavery and broken out in rebellion, a slave still in thrall to obsolete notions were to inscribe on the program of the rebellion: Slavery must be abolished because the feeding of slaves in the system of slavery cannot exceed a certain low maximum!"

Or perhaps we simply aren't slaves and don't need your shitty ideology to help us. I'm a worker and I have a fairly good life, as do many others. You're completely disconnected from the reality of the situation. We aren't all 19th century Russian peasants.
Last edited by Nova Cyberia on Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Yes, yes, I get it. I'm racist and fascist because I disagree with you. Can we skip that part? I've heard it a million times before and I guarantee it won't be any different when you do it
##############
American Nationalist
Third Positionist Gang

User avatar
Jean-Paul Sartre
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1684
Founded: Jun 26, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Jean-Paul Sartre » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:46 pm

Nova Cyberia wrote:
Trotskylvania wrote:No, it's because life as a worker is never good no matter how much you're getting paid, because your life is not your own. You're a factor of a system of production, and the nature of that system is to get as much work out of you in as little time as possible, and pay you as little as it can.

Anyone who thinks that social welfare programs or economic growth makes life hunky dory has a hole in their head. As Marx himself put it, "It is as if, among slaves who have at last got behind the secret of slavery and broken out in rebellion, a slave still in thrall to obsolete notions were to inscribe on the program of the rebellion: Slavery must be abolished because the feeding of slaves in the system of slavery cannot exceed a certain low maximum!"

Or perhaps we simply aren't slaves and don't need your shitty ideology to help us. I'm a worker and I have a fairly good life, as do many others. You're completely disconnected from the reality of the situation. We aren't all 19th century Russian peasants.

Some of us are 20th century Russian kulaks in disguise.
"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man."
-Heraclitus of Ephesus

User avatar
Trotskylvania
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 17217
Founded: Jul 07, 2006
Ex-Nation

Postby Trotskylvania » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:47 pm

Nova Cyberia wrote:
Trotskylvania wrote:No, it's because life as a worker is never good no matter how much you're getting paid, because your life is not your own. You're a factor of a system of production, and the nature of that system is to get as much work out of you in as little time as possible, and pay you as little as it can.

Anyone who thinks that social welfare programs or economic growth makes life hunky dory has a hole in their head. As Marx himself put it, "It is as if, among slaves who have at last got behind the secret of slavery and broken out in rebellion, a slave still in thrall to obsolete notions were to inscribe on the program of the rebellion: Slavery must be abolished because the feeding of slaves in the system of slavery cannot exceed a certain low maximum!"

Or perhaps we simply aren't slaves and don't need your shitty ideology to help us. I'm a worker and I have a fairly good life, as do many others. You're completely disconnected from the reality of the situation. We aren't all 19th century Russian peasants.

If life were really that good, my coworkers would not be constantly joking about injuring themselves so they could time away from work.

When your normal working class job inspires suicidal ideation, that's a sign that things are not alright.
Your Friendly Neighborhood Ultra - The Left Wing of the Impossible
Putting the '-sadism' in Posadism


"The hell of capitalism is the firm, not the fact that the firm has a boss."- Bordiga

User avatar
Jack Thomas Lang
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1856
Founded: Apr 18, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Jack Thomas Lang » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:49 pm

Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:Some of us are 20th century Russian kulaks in disguise.

If you're not a landowner, what good are you?

User avatar
Nova Cyberia
Senator
 
Posts: 4456
Founded: May 06, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Nova Cyberia » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:53 pm

Trotskylvania wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:Or perhaps we simply aren't slaves and don't need your shitty ideology to help us. I'm a worker and I have a fairly good life, as do many others. You're completely disconnected from the reality of the situation. We aren't all 19th century Russian peasants.

If life were really that good, my coworkers would not be constantly joking about injuring themselves so they could time away from work.

When your normal working class job inspires suicidal ideation, that's a sign that things are not alright.

Have you considered that your anecdotes are not representative of everyone's experiences? I mean, honestly, maybe your job just sucks. You have my sympathies, but quit acting acting like no one else can have a good life.
Last edited by Nova Cyberia on Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Yes, yes, I get it. I'm racist and fascist because I disagree with you. Can we skip that part? I've heard it a million times before and I guarantee it won't be any different when you do it
##############
American Nationalist
Third Positionist Gang

User avatar
Hanafuridake
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5529
Founded: Sep 09, 2018
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Hanafuridake » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:54 pm

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Nakena wrote:
Anti-Bolshevism is on the rise. And so is tankism and blatant Stalin apologism.

Image

Tankies must be barred from government.


That would suggest that there's a serious risk of tankies becoming members of the government.

Which isn't the case. Stalin sympathizers are much more common in Russia than Western Europe, and the Soviet Union hasn't revived yet.
Nation name in proper language: 花降岳
Mahayana Buddhist
Fan of royalism and distributism

PreviousNext

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Andsed, Asoliea, Bing [Bot], Cannot think of a name, Celritannia, Dresderstan, Fahran, Freiheit Reich, Greater Miami Shores, Nobel Hobos 2, Northern Davincia, Novalen, Novus America, Phoenicaea, Rostavykhan, Saiwania, San Lumen, The Blaatschapen, The Corparation, Vassenor, Xmara

Advertisement

Remove ads