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LWDT 7: The Earth and Heavens Tremble.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Which Book on Leftist Ideology is Your Preferred Book?

The Communist Manifesto (Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels)
23
18%
The Conquest of Bread (Peter Kropotkin)
24
19%
Das Kapital (Karl Marx)
21
16%
What is Property? (Pierre-Joseph Proudhon)
2
2%
Guerilla Warfare (Che Guevara)
8
6%
Mutual Aid (Peter Kropotkin)
2
2%
Profit Over People (Noam Chomsky)
4
3%
The Ego and Its Own (Max Stirner)
8
6%
Debt: The First 5,000 Years (David Graeber)
5
4%
Other (Please Explain)
32
25%
 
Total votes : 129

User avatar
Cekoviu
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16954
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Cekoviu » Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:54 am

Torrocca wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:That is actually a good thing, because it discourages using water bottles, which are destructive to the environment. Furthermore, it incentivizes providing access to clean tap water to citizens of a country.


... Not in the event of a natural disaster, which is what this argument was about.

Oh, you'll have to excuse me. I've been skimming over the last few pages but not paying a ton of attention, and I must've missed that.
pro: women's rights
anti: men's rights

User avatar
Northern Davincia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16960
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Northern Davincia » Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:01 am

Torrocca wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:I'm not fluent in straw.


It's the spirit of your argument that matters, considering you're arguing that $500 cases of water bottles is actually a good thing.

I'm not arguing it's a good thing, I'm saying it's a neutral, but sometimes efficient, thing.
Hoppean Libertarian, Acolyte of von Mises, Protector of Our Sacred Liberties
Economic Left/Right: 9.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

User avatar
Kowani
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44958
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:04 am

Northern Davincia wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
It's the spirit of your argument that matters, considering you're arguing that $500 cases of water bottles is actually a good thing.

I'm not arguing it's a good thing, I'm saying it's a neutral, but sometimes efficient, thing.

It’s not efficient, either, though.
American History and Historiography; Political and Labour History, Urbanism, Political Parties, Congressional Procedure, Elections.

Servant of The Democracy since 1896.


Historian, of sorts.

Effortposts can be found here!

User avatar
Northern Davincia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16960
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Northern Davincia » Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:08 am

Kowani wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:I'm not arguing it's a good thing, I'm saying it's a neutral, but sometimes efficient, thing.

It’s not efficient, either, though.

Because...?
Hoppean Libertarian, Acolyte of von Mises, Protector of Our Sacred Liberties
Economic Left/Right: 9.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

User avatar
Kowani
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44958
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:11 am

Northern Davincia wrote:
Kowani wrote:It’s not efficient, either, though.

Because...?

Artificial disruption of the market prevents it from returning to function normally faster.
Additionally, the power disparity between seller and buyer changes the dynamic fundamentally.
American History and Historiography; Political and Labour History, Urbanism, Political Parties, Congressional Procedure, Elections.

Servant of The Democracy since 1896.


Historian, of sorts.

Effortposts can be found here!

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 27805
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:13 am

Cekoviu wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
... Not in the event of a natural disaster, which is what this argument was about.

Oh, you'll have to excuse me. I've been skimming over the last few pages but not paying a ton of attention, and I must've missed that.


No worries! ^_^

Northern Davincia wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
It's the spirit of your argument that matters, considering you're arguing that $500 cases of water bottles is actually a good thing.

I'm not arguing it's a good thing, I'm saying it's a neutral, but sometimes efficient, thing.


You've sure been acting like it's a good thing, seeing as how deadset you are on defending something so atrocious amoral.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
They call me Torra, but you can call me... anytime (☞⌐■_■)☞
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NOTICE 1: Anything depicted IC on this nation does NOT reflect my IRL views or values, and is not endorsed by me.
NOTICE 2: Most RP and every OOC post by me prior to 2023 are no longer endorsed nor tolerated by me. I've since put on my adult pants!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

User avatar
Northern Davincia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16960
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Northern Davincia » Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:25 am

Kowani wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:Because...?

Artificial disruption of the market prevents it from returning to function normally faster.
Additionally, the power disparity between seller and buyer changes the dynamic fundamentally.

Price controls for natural disasters do not fix the market disruption and do nothing to return it to how it functioned previously.
Torrocca wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:Oh, you'll have to excuse me. I've been skimming over the last few pages but not paying a ton of attention, and I must've missed that.


No worries! ^_^

Northern Davincia wrote:I'm not arguing it's a good thing, I'm saying it's a neutral, but sometimes efficient, thing.


You've sure been acting like it's a good thing, seeing as how deadset you are on defending something so atrocious amoral.

Because I don't believe the alternative is better. I have to make the best out of a bad situation.
Again, I will take the word of economists over you.
Last edited by Northern Davincia on Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
Hoppean Libertarian, Acolyte of von Mises, Protector of Our Sacred Liberties
Economic Left/Right: 9.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 27805
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:37 am

Northern Davincia wrote:
Kowani wrote:Artificial disruption of the market prevents it from returning to function normally faster.
Additionally, the power disparity between seller and buyer changes the dynamic fundamentally.

Price controls for natural disasters do not fix the market disruption and do nothing to return it to how it functioned previously.
Torrocca wrote:
No worries! ^_^



You've sure been acting like it's a good thing, seeing as how deadset you are on defending something so atrocious amoral.

Because I don't believe the alternative is better. I have to make the best out of a bad situation.
Again, I will take the word of economists over you.


I adore how both of those conveniently ignore the part where the impoverished can't get dick-all in terms of supplies thanks to price-gouging.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
They call me Torra, but you can call me... anytime (☞⌐■_■)☞
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NOTICE 1: Anything depicted IC on this nation does NOT reflect my IRL views or values, and is not endorsed by me.
NOTICE 2: Most RP and every OOC post by me prior to 2023 are no longer endorsed nor tolerated by me. I've since put on my adult pants!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

User avatar
Crysuko
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7453
Founded: Feb 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Crysuko » Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:50 am

I've been doing some historical studies to avoid larping as a 20th century revolutionary. How long til I stop feeling feels about La Guerra Civil Espania?
Quotes:
Xilonite wrote: cookies are heresy.

Kelinfort wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:A terrorist attack on a disabled center doesn't make a lot of sense, unless to show no one is safe.

This will take some time to figure out, i am afraid.

"No one is safe, not even your most vulnerable and insecure!"

Cesopium wrote:Welp let's hope armies of 10 million don't just roam around and Soviet their way through everything.

Yugoslav Memes wrote:
Victoriala II wrote:Ur mom has value

one week ban for flaming xd

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Much better than the kulak smoothies. Their texture was suspiciously grainy.

Official thread euthanologist
I USE Qs INSTEAD OF Qs

User avatar
Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 69943
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Genivaria » Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:48 pm

Does anyone think that advances in technology make the concept of a planned economy more feasible?

User avatar
Kowani
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44958
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:51 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Kowani wrote:Artificial disruption of the market prevents it from returning to function normally faster.
Additionally, the power disparity between seller and buyer changes the dynamic fundamentally.

Price controls for natural disasters do not fix the market disruption and do nothing to return it to how it functioned previously.

Ignoring the second part, I see.

But. No, they kind of do.
American History and Historiography; Political and Labour History, Urbanism, Political Parties, Congressional Procedure, Elections.

Servant of The Democracy since 1896.


Historian, of sorts.

Effortposts can be found here!

User avatar
The Xenopolis Confederation
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9518
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:36 pm

Genivaria wrote:Does anyone think that advances in technology make the concept of a planned economy more feasible?

I certainly hope not.
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Deontology, Progressive Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, State Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Apple, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Nationality: Australian
Gender: MTF trans woman (she/her)
Political Ideology: If "milktoast liberalism" had a baby with "bleeding-heart libertarianism."
Discord: mellotronyellow

User avatar
United Muscovite Nations
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 25657
Founded: Feb 01, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:41 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:It can be done pretty quickly, actually, given the government keeps records of where people live and the income of people.

Regardless, price gouging isn't effective rationing, because causes a situation where a family of 6 that makes $50,000 has to have less of necessities than a family of 3 that makes $80,000.

Higher prices discourage hoarding, which ought to balance out the distribution between those families.

No it wouldn't, because higher prices would still make poor people unable to pay those prices.
Grumpy Grandpa of the LWDT and RWDT
Kantian with panentheist and Christian beliefs. Rawlsian Socialist. Just completed studies in History and International Relations. Asexual with sex-revulsion.
The world is grey, the mountains old, the forges fire is ashen cold. No harp is wrung, no hammer falls, the darkness dwells in Durin's halls...
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts
Borderline Personality Disorder, currently in treatment. I apologize if I blow up at you. TG me for info, can't discuss publicly because the mods support stigma on mental illness.

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Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 69943
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Genivaria » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:45 pm

Would A People's History of the United States qualify?

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United Muscovite Nations
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 25657
Founded: Feb 01, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:47 pm

Genivaria wrote:Would A People's History of the United States qualify?

I suppose, but it's a bad book because it's intentionally self-aggrandizing and misleading on historiography.
Grumpy Grandpa of the LWDT and RWDT
Kantian with panentheist and Christian beliefs. Rawlsian Socialist. Just completed studies in History and International Relations. Asexual with sex-revulsion.
The world is grey, the mountains old, the forges fire is ashen cold. No harp is wrung, no hammer falls, the darkness dwells in Durin's halls...
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts
Borderline Personality Disorder, currently in treatment. I apologize if I blow up at you. TG me for info, can't discuss publicly because the mods support stigma on mental illness.

User avatar
Bienenhalde
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6443
Founded: Mar 11, 2017
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Bienenhalde » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:50 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Would A People's History of the United States qualify?

I suppose, but it's a bad book because it's intentionally self-aggrandizing and misleading on historiography.


Terribly boring, too.

User avatar
Northern Davincia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16960
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Northern Davincia » Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:48 am

Kowani wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:Price controls for natural disasters do not fix the market disruption and do nothing to return it to how it functioned previously.

Ignoring the second part, I see.

But. No, they kind of do.

You haven't explained how the dynamic changes. And you haven't explained how price controls fix the disruption, because they clearly don't.
United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:Higher prices discourage hoarding, which ought to balance out the distribution between those families.

No it wouldn't, because higher prices would still make poor people unable to pay those prices.

Not quite.
Hoppean Libertarian, Acolyte of von Mises, Protector of Our Sacred Liberties
Economic Left/Right: 9.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

User avatar
Liriena
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 60885
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Liriena » Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:48 am

be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
if you passed biology and know
gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

I disown most of my previous posts

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Northern Davincia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16960
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Northern Davincia » Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:49 am


The ok hand worked. It'd be interesting if this did too.
Hoppean Libertarian, Acolyte of von Mises, Protector of Our Sacred Liberties
Economic Left/Right: 9.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

User avatar
Liriena
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 60885
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Liriena » Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:51 am

Last edited by Liriena on Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
if you passed biology and know
gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

I disown most of my previous posts

User avatar
Liriena
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 60885
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Liriena » Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:54 am


And this is why you probably shouldn't repeatedly plot to troll and gaslight the libs with fake nonsense in a public forum that everyone can read.
Last edited by Liriena on Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
if you passed biology and know
gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

I disown most of my previous posts

User avatar
LiberNovusAmericae
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6942
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:01 am

#

Edit: Wow, that is a stupid trolling campaign.
Last edited by LiberNovusAmericae on Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Dumb Ideologies
Post Czar
 
Posts: 46015
Founded: Sep 30, 2007
Mother Knows Best State

Postby Dumb Ideologies » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:01 am

The hash-hoax is - internally - fairly well done and quite creative. I certainly laughed when I saw it.

But the target is rubbish because hashtags are too ubiquitous for it to work. Still, it keeps the little scamps out of mischief.
Are these "human rights" in the room with us right now?
★彡 Professional pessimist. Reactionary socialist and gamer liberationist. Coffee addict. Fun at parties 彡★
Freedom is when people agree with you, and the more people you can force to act like they agree the freer society is
You are the trolley problem's conductor. You could stop the train in time but you do not. Nobody knows you're part of the equation. You satisfy your bloodlust and get away with it every time

User avatar
Liriena
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 60885
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Liriena » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:15 am

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:#

Edit: Wow, that is a stupid trolling campaign.

I miss the days when trolls were actually creative and just in it for the lulz, rather than a bunch of stupid teenage neonazis desperately trying to invent dogwhistles with the subtlety of an airhorn
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
if you passed biology and know
gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

I disown most of my previous posts

User avatar
Proctopeo
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12370
Founded: Sep 26, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Proctopeo » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:55 am

Liriena wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:#

Edit: Wow, that is a stupid trolling campaign.

I miss the days when trolls were actually creative and just in it for the lulz, rather than a bunch of stupid teenage neonazis desperately trying to invent dogwhistles with the subtlety of an airhorn

Still, it works as long as the attempted sting isn't against such a big symbol, like the octothorpe. Because people (well, largely journalists and those without critical thinking skills, but I repeat myself) are nearly deaf, or whatever, in this analogy.

"Pool's Closed" was a fucking riot btw
Arachno-anarchism || NO GODS NO MASTERS || Free NSG Odreria

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