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LWDT 7: The Earth and Heavens Tremble.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Which Book on Leftist Ideology is Your Preferred Book?

The Communist Manifesto (Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels)
23
18%
The Conquest of Bread (Peter Kropotkin)
24
19%
Das Kapital (Karl Marx)
21
16%
What is Property? (Pierre-Joseph Proudhon)
2
2%
Guerilla Warfare (Che Guevara)
8
6%
Mutual Aid (Peter Kropotkin)
2
2%
Profit Over People (Noam Chomsky)
4
3%
The Ego and Its Own (Max Stirner)
8
6%
Debt: The First 5,000 Years (David Graeber)
5
4%
Other (Please Explain)
32
25%
 
Total votes : 129

User avatar
The Xenopolis Confederation
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9478
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:15 am

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:>Avengers
So the answer to my question is yes, then :^)

Thank you, they're terrible movies.

How are they terrible?
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Deontology, Progressive Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, State Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Apple, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Nationality: Australian
Gender: MTF trans woman (she/her)
Political Ideology: If "milktoast liberalism" had a baby with "bleeding-heart libertarianism."
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User avatar
First American Empire
Diplomat
 
Posts: 816
Founded: Mar 12, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby First American Empire » Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:15 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:Thank God big boss George Soros actually reinvests his wealth by paying all of us lefty shitposters - and above minimum wage, too.


The worst bit about being a double agent is that I'm only paid in icepicks and lengthened knife blades sent through the post.


We would never do that. If we wanted to kill you by sending murder implements through the internet, we would use poison.
The American Empire is a socially progressive absolute monarchy run by the heirs of Emperor Norton. It started off at MT but has rapidly advanced to PMT through interdimensional travel. All NSstats are used, except for tax rate and population. Factbooks are currently under reconstruction.

User avatar
Pasong Tirad
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11949
Founded: May 31, 2007
Democratic Socialists

Postby Pasong Tirad » Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:35 am

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:This could have been the worst discussion here ever if it wasn't co-opted by comrades talking about D&D classes. Well done.

In what direction were you worried it could have gone?

This one.

User avatar
The Xenopolis Confederation
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9478
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:42 am

Pasong Tirad wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:In what direction were you worried it could have gone?

This one.

May as well full steam ahead then.
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Deontology, Progressive Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, State Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Apple, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Nationality: Australian
Gender: MTF trans woman (she/her)
Political Ideology: If "milktoast liberalism" had a baby with "bleeding-heart libertarianism."
Discord: mellotronyellow

User avatar
Jack Thomas Lang
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1856
Founded: Apr 18, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Jack Thomas Lang » Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:47 am

>When you realise Beria was unironically the best post-Stalin candidate because in his opportunism he supported political liberalisation in return for economic aid
>But he's also a serial rapist and pedophile

Wtf Beria why do you do this?

User avatar
Cekoviu
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16954
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Cekoviu » Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:08 am

Democratic Communist Federation wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:Indeed.


Not to tout my credentials. However, as someone with a Ph.D. in sociology and history, I can confidently say that any historian who would make that claim among other historians would be assumed to be making a joke.

If somebody says "not to tout my credentials," they will immediately tout their credentials much in the same way that "I'm not racist, but..." is followed by something racist.
pro: women's rights
anti: men's rights

User avatar
Nova Cyberia
Senator
 
Posts: 4456
Founded: May 06, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Nova Cyberia » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:30 am

Democratic Communist Federation wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:Indeed.


Not to tout my credentials. However, as someone with a Ph.D. in sociology and history, I can confidently say that any historian who would make that claim among other historians would be assumed to be making a joke.

Your appeal to authority is noted and dismissed, professor.
Yes, yes, I get it. I'm racist and fascist because I disagree with you. Can we skip that part? I've heard it a million times before and I guarantee it won't be any different when you do it
##############
American Nationalist
Third Positionist Gang

User avatar
Nova Cyberia
Senator
 
Posts: 4456
Founded: May 06, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Nova Cyberia » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:31 am

Jack Thomas Lang wrote:>When you realise Beria was unironically the best post-Stalin candidate because in his opportunism he supported political liberalisation in return for economic aid
>But he's also a serial rapist and pedophile

Wtf Beria why do you do this?

Almost as if all the Bolsheviks were terrible and the Tsar should have done far worse than exiling them.
Yes, yes, I get it. I'm racist and fascist because I disagree with you. Can we skip that part? I've heard it a million times before and I guarantee it won't be any different when you do it
##############
American Nationalist
Third Positionist Gang

User avatar
Dumb Ideologies
Post Czar
 
Posts: 45991
Founded: Sep 30, 2007
Mother Knows Best State

Postby Dumb Ideologies » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:37 am

Nova Cyberia wrote:
Democratic Communist Federation wrote:
Not to tout my credentials. However, as someone with a Ph.D. in sociology and history, I can confidently say that any historian who would make that claim among other historians would be assumed to be making a joke.

Your appeal to authority is noted and dismissed, professor.


Not to toot my own horn but..

[EARDRUM-BURSTING FOGHORN FROM THREE PACES AWAY]
Are these "human rights" in the room with us right now?
★彡 Professional pessimist. Reactionary socialist and gamer liberationist. Coffee addict. Fun at parties 彡★
Freedom is when people agree with you, and the more people you can force to act like they agree the freer society is
You are the trolley problem's conductor. You could stop the train in time but you do not. Nobody knows you're part of the equation. You satisfy your bloodlust and get away with it every time

User avatar
Northern Davincia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16960
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Northern Davincia » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:07 am

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:The rich reinvest their wealth. If the common folk saved their money, rather than be encouraged to spend it by Keynesian economists, that environment would exist already.

The common people don't make enough money to save it, and if they didn't spend it, then the entire economic system would collapse. Do you know anything at all about the modern economy?

They make enough to spend but not to save? How is that not contradictory?
The economic system would slow down but it certainly wouldn't collapse.
Liriena wrote:
Hanafuridake wrote:
Is that why EA has a history of hiding millions of dollars in tax havens and pressuring workers to work overtime without pay?

Also, companies like EA reporting record profits and still laying off hundreds of workers because their stock-holders wanted more.

Oh, and let's not forget that EA did to Visceral.

Don't purchase EA games, then.
Hoppean Libertarian, Acolyte of von Mises, Protector of Our Sacred Liberties
Economic Left/Right: 9.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

User avatar
Of of of of of
Civilian
 
Posts: 1
Founded: Jan 21, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Of of of of of » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:18 am

Northern Davincia wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:The common people don't make enough money to save it, and if they didn't spend it, then the entire economic system would collapse. Do you know anything at all about the modern economy?

They make enough to spend but not to save? How is that not contradictory?
The economic system would slow down but it certainly wouldn't collapse.
Liriena wrote:Also, companies like EA reporting record profits and still laying off hundreds of workers because their stock-holders wanted more.

Oh, and let's not forget that EA did to Visceral.

Don't purchase EA games, then.


Beautiful thing about capitalism, you vote with your dollar. You don’t purchase their games or labor unions protest these unfair conditions and therefore, without labor or buyers, they must change themselves as a company.

User avatar
Northern Davincia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16960
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Northern Davincia » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:20 am

Of of of of of wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:They make enough to spend but not to save? How is that not contradictory?
The economic system would slow down but it certainly wouldn't collapse.

Don't purchase EA games, then.


Beautiful thing about capitalism, you vote with your dollar. You don’t purchase their games or labor unions protest these unfair conditions and therefore, without labor or buyers, they must change themselves as a company.

Well said.
Hoppean Libertarian, Acolyte of von Mises, Protector of Our Sacred Liberties
Economic Left/Right: 9.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

User avatar
Washington Resistance Army
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54796
Founded: Aug 08, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby Washington Resistance Army » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:41 am

Northern Davincia wrote:They make enough to spend but not to save? How is that not contradictory?


Because nearly 80% of full time workers live paycheck to paycheck. Their spending goes towards things to keep them alive and little more. This fantasy that everyone could just save their money and invest and all this garbage has no basis in reality, as is so often the case with right libertarian thought.
Hellenic Polytheist, Socialist

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 27795
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:43 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:They make enough to spend but not to save? How is that not contradictory?


Because nearly 80% of full time workers live paycheck to paycheck. Their spending goes towards things to keep them alive and little more. This fantasy that everyone could just save their money and invest and all this garbage has no basis in reality, as is so often the case with right libertarian thought.


Basically this.
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They call me Torra, but you can call me... anytime (☞⌐■_■)☞
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NOTICE 1: Anything depicted IC on this nation does NOT reflect my IRL views or values, and is not endorsed by me.
NOTICE 2: Most RP and every OOC post by me prior to 2023 are no longer endorsed nor tolerated by me. I've since put on my adult pants!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

User avatar
Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 58536
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:53 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:They make enough to spend but not to save? How is that not contradictory?


Because nearly 80% of full time workers live paycheck to paycheck. Their spending goes towards things to keep them alive and little more. This fantasy that everyone could just save their money and invest and all this garbage has no basis in reality, as is so often the case with right libertarian thought.


This, but also this is worsened by modern cultural and social norms. The DINK lifestyle produces quite a comfortable amount of extra money which could be used as savings, however people are not entering long term committed relationships early enough to do that and also have kids.

If people got into relationships and moved in together around 18-20, DINK'd until 30, then had two children, they'd be alright.

Instead people are basically spending 18-27 supporting themselves on a single income (Which due to economies of scale is more expensive), then settling down around 27-30 and having kids, without the intermediary nest-building stage.

The problem is partially that people aren't sharing accommodation enough. The solutions are either more monogamy at early stages of life, or to transition into fraternity and sorority (And desegregated arrangements) society for that intermediate stage.

Where people do settle down early, they often immediately proceed to having kids.

Almost nobody does the sensible thing, which is one reason our system is struggling. Wage problems are also a big factor, but there's ways around it.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Cekoviu
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16954
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Cekoviu » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:16 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:They make enough to spend but not to save? How is that not contradictory?


Because nearly 80% of full time workers live paycheck to paycheck. Their spending goes towards things to keep them alive and little more. This fantasy that everyone could just save their money and invest and all this garbage has no basis in reality, as is so often the case with right libertarian thought.

Whoa, this is not what you were saying a year ago. Your views have changed a lot.
pro: women's rights
anti: men's rights

User avatar
North German Realm
Senator
 
Posts: 4494
Founded: Jan 27, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby North German Realm » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:19 am

Cekoviu wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Because nearly 80% of full time workers live paycheck to paycheck. Their spending goes towards things to keep them alive and little more. This fantasy that everyone could just save their money and invest and all this garbage has no basis in reality, as is so often the case with right libertarian thought.

Whoa, this is not what you were saying a year ago. Your views have changed a lot.

WRA's change in opinions is a real life example of character development tbh.
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Hammer Britannia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5390
Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Hammer Britannia » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:20 am

Cekoviu wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Because nearly 80% of full time workers live paycheck to paycheck. Their spending goes towards things to keep them alive and little more. This fantasy that everyone could just save their money and invest and all this garbage has no basis in reality, as is so often the case with right libertarian thought.

Whoa, this is not what you were saying a year ago. Your views have changed a lot.

WRA is a traitor to right-wingers and America and will now be executed under Order 1776
All shall tremble before me

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Hanafuridake
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5532
Founded: Sep 09, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Hanafuridake » Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:07 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Liriena wrote:Also, companies like EA reporting record profits and still laying off hundreds of workers because their stock-holders wanted more.

Oh, and let's not forget that EA did to Visceral.

Don't purchase EA games, then.


One person not buying a game isn't going to change anything, and if your response to serious grievances is “lol just don't buy” then you've failed at making private corporations accountable.
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Petrolheadia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11388
Founded: May 02, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Petrolheadia » Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:14 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:They make enough to spend but not to save? How is that not contradictory?


Because nearly 80% of full time workers live paycheck to paycheck. Their spending goes towards things to keep them alive and little more. This fantasy that everyone could just save their money and invest and all this garbage has no basis in reality, as is so often the case with right libertarian thought.

No data on full time vs part time vs rentiers, but the 80th percentile for US household income is $80k/year.

If you get 80 grand a year and live above your means, you are the problem.
Hanafuridake wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:Don't purchase EA games, then.


One person not buying a game isn't going to change anything, and if your response to serious grievances is “lol just don't buy” then you've failed at making private corporations accountable.

No. This response means that you don't get to dictate the entire society.
Capitalism, single-payer healthcare, pro-choice, LGBT rights, progressive personal taxation, low corporate tax, pro-business law, welfare for those in need.
Nazism, edgism, dogmatic statements, most of Abrahamic-derived morality (esp. as law), welfare for those not in need.
We are not Albania and I am not Albanian, FFS!
Male, gearhead, classic rock fan, gamer, agnostic.
Not sure if left-libertarian, ex-libertarian or without a damn clue.
Where you can talk about cars!
"They're always saying I'm a Capitalist pig. I suppose I am, but, ah...it ah...it's good for my drumming, I think." - Keith Moon,
If a Porsche owner treats it like a bicycle, he's a gentleman. And if he prays to it, he's simply a moron. - Jan Nowicki.

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Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 27795
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:17 pm

Hanafuridake wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:Don't purchase EA games, then.


One person not buying a game isn't going to change anything, and if your response to serious grievances is “lol just don't buy” then you've failed at making private corporations accountable.


Nah, clearly, everyone else should be responsible for a bad actor's bad acts (in this case, EA being utterly shitty). /s
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
They call me Torra, but you can call me... anytime (☞⌐■_■)☞
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NOTICE 1: Anything depicted IC on this nation does NOT reflect my IRL views or values, and is not endorsed by me.
NOTICE 2: Most RP and every OOC post by me prior to 2023 are no longer endorsed nor tolerated by me. I've since put on my adult pants!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

User avatar
Petrolheadia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11388
Founded: May 02, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Petrolheadia » Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:20 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Hanafuridake wrote:
One person not buying a game isn't going to change anything, and if your response to serious grievances is “lol just don't buy” then you've failed at making private corporations accountable.


Nah, clearly, everyone else should be responsible for a bad actor's bad acts (in this case, EA being utterly shitty). /s

If you dislike EA, put your money where your mouth is. That hard?
Capitalism, single-payer healthcare, pro-choice, LGBT rights, progressive personal taxation, low corporate tax, pro-business law, welfare for those in need.
Nazism, edgism, dogmatic statements, most of Abrahamic-derived morality (esp. as law), welfare for those not in need.
We are not Albania and I am not Albanian, FFS!
Male, gearhead, classic rock fan, gamer, agnostic.
Not sure if left-libertarian, ex-libertarian or without a damn clue.
Where you can talk about cars!
"They're always saying I'm a Capitalist pig. I suppose I am, but, ah...it ah...it's good for my drumming, I think." - Keith Moon,
If a Porsche owner treats it like a bicycle, he's a gentleman. And if he prays to it, he's simply a moron. - Jan Nowicki.

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 27795
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:21 pm

Petrolheadia wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Nah, clearly, everyone else should be responsible for a bad actor's bad acts (in this case, EA being utterly shitty). /s

If you dislike EA, put your money where your mouth is. That hard?


The point







































































You.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
They call me Torra, but you can call me... anytime (☞⌐■_■)☞
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NOTICE 1: Anything depicted IC on this nation does NOT reflect my IRL views or values, and is not endorsed by me.
NOTICE 2: Most RP and every OOC post by me prior to 2023 are no longer endorsed nor tolerated by me. I've since put on my adult pants!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

User avatar
Petrolheadia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11388
Founded: May 02, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Petrolheadia » Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:22 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Petrolheadia wrote:If you dislike EA, put your money where your mouth is. That hard?


The point







































































You.

Hitting bad targets is not my MO.
Capitalism, single-payer healthcare, pro-choice, LGBT rights, progressive personal taxation, low corporate tax, pro-business law, welfare for those in need.
Nazism, edgism, dogmatic statements, most of Abrahamic-derived morality (esp. as law), welfare for those not in need.
We are not Albania and I am not Albanian, FFS!
Male, gearhead, classic rock fan, gamer, agnostic.
Not sure if left-libertarian, ex-libertarian or without a damn clue.
Where you can talk about cars!
"They're always saying I'm a Capitalist pig. I suppose I am, but, ah...it ah...it's good for my drumming, I think." - Keith Moon,
If a Porsche owner treats it like a bicycle, he's a gentleman. And if he prays to it, he's simply a moron. - Jan Nowicki.

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 27795
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:25 pm

Petrolheadia wrote:Hitting bad targets is not my MO.


I don't care what your "MO" is when you can't even pretend to understand how accountability works when someone or a group of someones do a shitty thing.

What you're saying is as stupid as blaming a witness for a murder that happened in a building across the street from where they were at.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
They call me Torra, but you can call me... anytime (☞⌐■_■)☞
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NOTICE 1: Anything depicted IC on this nation does NOT reflect my IRL views or values, and is not endorsed by me.
NOTICE 2: Most RP and every OOC post by me prior to 2023 are no longer endorsed nor tolerated by me. I've since put on my adult pants!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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