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LWDT 7: The Earth and Heavens Tremble.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Which Book on Leftist Ideology is Your Preferred Book?

The Communist Manifesto (Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels)
23
18%
The Conquest of Bread (Peter Kropotkin)
24
19%
Das Kapital (Karl Marx)
21
16%
What is Property? (Pierre-Joseph Proudhon)
2
2%
Guerilla Warfare (Che Guevara)
8
6%
Mutual Aid (Peter Kropotkin)
2
2%
Profit Over People (Noam Chomsky)
4
3%
The Ego and Its Own (Max Stirner)
8
6%
Debt: The First 5,000 Years (David Graeber)
5
4%
Other (Please Explain)
32
25%
 
Total votes : 129

User avatar
The Xenopolis Confederation
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9474
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:08 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:When did leftists become the ones who wanna bully nerds?

>not being a leftist but people constantly calling you a leftist because of being unable to distinguish between SJWs and socialists
feelsbadman.jpg

But are you an SJW or do you just support social justice?
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Deontology, Progressive Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, State Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Apple, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Nationality: Australian
Gender: MTF trans woman (she/her)
Political Ideology: If "milktoast liberalism" had a baby with "bleeding-heart libertarianism."
Discord: mellotronyellow

User avatar
Kowani
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44957
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:09 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Kowani wrote:The individual is nothing without the collective.

The collective is nothing without the individual.

Individuals. Plural. And therefore, there exists only the collective.
American History and Historiography; Political and Labour History, Urbanism, Political Parties, Congressional Procedure, Elections.

Servant of The Democracy since 1896.


Historian, of sorts.

Effortposts can be found here!

User avatar
The Xenopolis Confederation
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9474
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:22 pm

Kowani wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:The collective is nothing without the individual.

Individuals. Plural. And therefore, there exists only the collective.

The plural of "individual" is not "collective" not every gathering of more than 1 individual is a "collective." Humans are not drops of water, they do not become engulfed in a group.
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Deontology, Progressive Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, State Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Apple, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Nationality: Australian
Gender: MTF trans woman (she/her)
Political Ideology: If "milktoast liberalism" had a baby with "bleeding-heart libertarianism."
Discord: mellotronyellow

User avatar
Kowani
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44957
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:25 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Kowani wrote:Individuals. Plural. And therefore, there exists only the collective.

The plural of "individual" is not "collective" not every gathering of more than 1 individual is a "collective." Humans are not drops of water, they do not become engulfed in a group.

-denoting a number of persons or things considered as one group or whole.
-of, relating to, or being a group of individuals.
American History and Historiography; Political and Labour History, Urbanism, Political Parties, Congressional Procedure, Elections.

Servant of The Democracy since 1896.


Historian, of sorts.

Effortposts can be found here!

User avatar
The Xenopolis Confederation
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9474
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:27 pm

Kowani wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:The plural of "individual" is not "collective" not every gathering of more than 1 individual is a "collective." Humans are not drops of water, they do not become engulfed in a group.

-denoting a number of persons or things considered as one group or whole.
-of, relating to, or being a group of individuals.

Yes. Every collective contains individuals. That's what I'm saying.
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Deontology, Progressive Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, State Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Apple, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Nationality: Australian
Gender: MTF trans woman (she/her)
Political Ideology: If "milktoast liberalism" had a baby with "bleeding-heart libertarianism."
Discord: mellotronyellow

User avatar
Cekoviu
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16954
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Cekoviu » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:45 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:>not being a leftist but people constantly calling you a leftist because of being unable to distinguish between SJWs and socialists
feelsbadman.jpg

But are you an SJW or do you just support social justice?

Strictly speaking, I'm an SJB (Social Justice Bard), which is technically a subclass of SJRs. However, most people who don't play SJ don't understand class distinctions, so SJW generally suffices as a well-known term.
pro: women's rights
anti: men's rights

User avatar
Kowani
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44957
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:52 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Kowani wrote:-denoting a number of persons or things considered as one group or whole.
-of, relating to, or being a group of individuals.

Yes. Every collective contains individuals. That's what I'm saying.

I believe that my point soared over your head, then.
American History and Historiography; Political and Labour History, Urbanism, Political Parties, Congressional Procedure, Elections.

Servant of The Democracy since 1896.


Historian, of sorts.

Effortposts can be found here!

User avatar
The Xenopolis Confederation
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9474
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:53 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:But are you an SJW or do you just support social justice?

Strictly speaking, I'm an SJB (Social Justice Bard), which is technically a subclass of SJRs. However, most people who don't play SJ don't understand class distinctions, so SJW generally suffices as a well-known term.

How I'm wondering what a social justice wizard would be like.
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Deontology, Progressive Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, State Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Apple, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Nationality: Australian
Gender: MTF trans woman (she/her)
Political Ideology: If "milktoast liberalism" had a baby with "bleeding-heart libertarianism."
Discord: mellotronyellow

User avatar
Hanafuridake
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5532
Founded: Sep 09, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Hanafuridake » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:53 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Hanafuridake wrote:
So, basically, magical thinking about how the individual somehow exists outside of all of the components that create them.

No magical than believing that the collective exists outside of all the individuals that create it.


Too bad I don't believe that, my religion declares that everything arise dependently on each other.
Nation name in proper language: 花降岳|पुष्पद्वीप
Theravada Buddhist
李贽 wrote:There is nothing difficult about becoming a sage, and nothing false about transcending the world of appearances.
Suriyanakhon's alt, finally found my old account's password

User avatar
Proctopeo
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12370
Founded: Sep 26, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Proctopeo » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:54 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:Strictly speaking, I'm an SJB (Social Justice Bard), which is technically a subclass of SJRs. However, most people who don't play SJ don't understand class distinctions, so SJW generally suffices as a well-known term.

How I'm wondering what a social justice wizard would be like.

They're the ones that shit out flags and identities every fifteen minutes.
Bards are the only SJ class ever played with more than 1 in Charisma, though stat spreads tend to be very low regardless.
Arachno-anarchism || NO GODS NO MASTERS || Free NSG Odreria

User avatar
Kowani
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44957
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:55 pm

Hanafuridake wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:No magical than believing that the collective exists outside of all the individuals that create it.


Too bad I don't believe that, my religion declares that everything arise dependently on each other.

The laws of physics would like to have a word with you.
American History and Historiography; Political and Labour History, Urbanism, Political Parties, Congressional Procedure, Elections.

Servant of The Democracy since 1896.


Historian, of sorts.

Effortposts can be found here!

User avatar
Cekoviu
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16954
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Cekoviu » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:55 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:Strictly speaking, I'm an SJB (Social Justice Bard), which is technically a subclass of SJRs. However, most people who don't play SJ don't understand class distinctions, so SJW generally suffices as a well-known term.

How I'm wondering what a social justice wizard would be like.

They're referred to as SJMs, but:
Social Justice Mages are your primary DPS class. They work with philosophy, law, and public relations, and, as such, they need very high Int to be effective. Their job is to attempt to do the real heavy lifting in trying to shift the ground in the society. I mean, obviously, that's what EVERYBODY is doing -- that's the point -- but they're the main DPS in it. SJMs include people like bell hooks, Lawrence Lessig, Justice Sotomayor, and the EFF. Anita Sarkeesian is the ultimate SJM. If the bad guys are specifically trying to get you, you're probably an SJM-- they try to get Brianna Wu and Zoe Quinn.
pro: women's rights
anti: men's rights

User avatar
The Xenopolis Confederation
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9474
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:02 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:How I'm wondering what a social justice wizard would be like.

They're referred to as SJMs, but:
Social Justice Mages are your primary DPS class. They work with philosophy, law, and public relations, and, as such, they need very high Int to be effective. Their job is to attempt to do the real heavy lifting in trying to shift the ground in the society. I mean, obviously, that's what EVERYBODY is doing -- that's the point -- but they're the main DPS in it. SJMs include people like bell hooks, Lawrence Lessig, Justice Sotomayor, and the EFF. Anita Sarkeesian is the ultimate SJM. If the bad guys are specifically trying to get you, you're probably an SJM-- they try to get Brianna Wu and Zoe Quinn.

Why must you make me suffer?
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Deontology, Progressive Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, State Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Apple, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Nationality: Australian
Gender: MTF trans woman (she/her)
Political Ideology: If "milktoast liberalism" had a baby with "bleeding-heart libertarianism."
Discord: mellotronyellow

User avatar
Hanafuridake
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5532
Founded: Sep 09, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Hanafuridake » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:12 pm

Kowani wrote:
Hanafuridake wrote:
Too bad I don't believe that, my religion declares that everything arise dependently on each other.

The laws of physics would like to have a word with you.


I'm fairly certain that the laws of physics don't discredit causality. In fact, I'm pretty sure that cause & effect is a major part of scientific inquiry.
Nation name in proper language: 花降岳|पुष्पद्वीप
Theravada Buddhist
李贽 wrote:There is nothing difficult about becoming a sage, and nothing false about transcending the world of appearances.
Suriyanakhon's alt, finally found my old account's password

User avatar
Pasong Tirad
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11949
Founded: May 31, 2007
Democratic Socialists

Postby Pasong Tirad » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:12 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:>not being a leftist but people constantly calling you a leftist because of being unable to distinguish between SJWs and socialists
feelsbadman.jpg

But are you an SJW or do you just support social justice?

This could have been the worst discussion here ever if it wasn't co-opted by comrades talking about D&D classes. Well done.

User avatar
United Muscovite Nations
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 25657
Founded: Feb 01, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:13 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:You've never seen the Avengers movies?

Honestly, I feel personally attacked.

>Avengers
So the answer to my question is yes, then :^)

Thank you, they're terrible movies.
Grumpy Grandpa of the LWDT and RWDT
Kantian with panentheist and Christian beliefs. Rawlsian Socialist. Just completed studies in History and International Relations. Asexual with sex-revulsion.
The world is grey, the mountains old, the forges fire is ashen cold. No harp is wrung, no hammer falls, the darkness dwells in Durin's halls...
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts
Borderline Personality Disorder, currently in treatment. I apologize if I blow up at you. TG me for info, can't discuss publicly because the mods support stigma on mental illness.

User avatar
First American Empire
Diplomat
 
Posts: 816
Founded: Mar 12, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby First American Empire » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:36 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
It's okay, Cek; you can still join us in the leftist club <3

But the neolibs have taco trucks on every corner! What do you have to offer me other than a lifetime of sadness?


Free health care and affordable housing.
Last edited by First American Empire on Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The American Empire is a socially progressive absolute monarchy run by the heirs of Emperor Norton. It started off at MT but has rapidly advanced to PMT through interdimensional travel. All NSstats are used, except for tax rate and population. Factbooks are currently under reconstruction.

User avatar
First American Empire
Diplomat
 
Posts: 816
Founded: Mar 12, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby First American Empire » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:38 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Kowani wrote:The individual is nothing without the collective.

The collective is nothing without the individual.


The individual and the collective are nothing without each other.
The American Empire is a socially progressive absolute monarchy run by the heirs of Emperor Norton. It started off at MT but has rapidly advanced to PMT through interdimensional travel. All NSstats are used, except for tax rate and population. Factbooks are currently under reconstruction.

User avatar
Northern Davincia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16960
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Northern Davincia » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:44 pm

First American Empire wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:But the neolibs have taco trucks on every corner! What do you have to offer me other than a lifetime of sadness?


Free health care and affordable housing.

There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.
Hoppean Libertarian, Acolyte of von Mises, Protector of Our Sacred Liberties
Economic Left/Right: 9.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

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Kowani
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44957
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:46 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
First American Empire wrote:
Free health care and affordable housing.

There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

Who cares, the rich are the ones paying for it-and not having everyone impoverished, diseased and homeless tends to work out better in the end.
American History and Historiography; Political and Labour History, Urbanism, Political Parties, Congressional Procedure, Elections.

Servant of The Democracy since 1896.


Historian, of sorts.

Effortposts can be found here!

User avatar
Pasong Tirad
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11949
Founded: May 31, 2007
Democratic Socialists

Postby Pasong Tirad » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:47 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
First American Empire wrote:
Free health care and affordable housing.

There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

That's why we're gonna eat the rich.

User avatar
Northern Davincia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16960
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Northern Davincia » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:50 pm

Kowani wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

Who cares, the rich are the ones paying for it-and not having everyone impoverished, diseased and homeless tends to work out better in the end.

Except not everyone is impoverished, diseased, or homeless in the United States. Creating a better environment for everyone to pay for their own stuff is far better.
Hoppean Libertarian, Acolyte of von Mises, Protector of Our Sacred Liberties
Economic Left/Right: 9.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

User avatar
United Muscovite Nations
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 25657
Founded: Feb 01, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:50 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Kowani wrote:Who cares, the rich are the ones paying for it-and not having everyone impoverished, diseased and homeless tends to work out better in the end.

Except not everyone is impoverished, diseased, or homeless in the United States. Creating a better environment for everyone to pay for their own stuff is far better.

It would be easier to create that kind of environment if the rich weren't hoarding a vast amount of the wealth in the country.
Grumpy Grandpa of the LWDT and RWDT
Kantian with panentheist and Christian beliefs. Rawlsian Socialist. Just completed studies in History and International Relations. Asexual with sex-revulsion.
The world is grey, the mountains old, the forges fire is ashen cold. No harp is wrung, no hammer falls, the darkness dwells in Durin's halls...
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts
Borderline Personality Disorder, currently in treatment. I apologize if I blow up at you. TG me for info, can't discuss publicly because the mods support stigma on mental illness.

User avatar
Northern Davincia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16960
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Northern Davincia » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:52 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:Except not everyone is impoverished, diseased, or homeless in the United States. Creating a better environment for everyone to pay for their own stuff is far better.

It would be easier to create that kind of environment if the rich weren't hoarding a vast amount of the wealth in the country.

The rich reinvest their wealth. If the common folk saved their money, rather than be encouraged to spend it by Keynesian economists, that environment would exist already.
Hoppean Libertarian, Acolyte of von Mises, Protector of Our Sacred Liberties
Economic Left/Right: 9.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

User avatar
Hanafuridake
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5532
Founded: Sep 09, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Hanafuridake » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:53 pm

The more I read about the appalling conditions in companies and how they hoard wealth in tax havens, I become more convinced that cooperatives are the solution.
Nation name in proper language: 花降岳|पुष्पद्वीप
Theravada Buddhist
李贽 wrote:There is nothing difficult about becoming a sage, and nothing false about transcending the world of appearances.
Suriyanakhon's alt, finally found my old account's password

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