Wargame simulations show Russia and China could defeat US

[Dooom35796821595]

Since when was it not relatively common knowledge that Russia and China could crush tiny nations on their border?
The point we're making is not "we can defeat the Russian Army with the forces we have in Estonia". The point we're making is "if you attack Estonia, we can and will turn Russia to radioactive ash". Estonia's not worth that, so Russia won't attack. Same deal with China and Taiwan, or North Korea and South Korea (though that one is a bit more questionable).

I feel like nuking all of Russia over an invasion of Estonia (population 1.3 mm) is pretty heinous.

That’s the backbone of NATO, an invasion of one is an invasion of all. Russia has to be aware the US is willing to launch everything in order to stop Russia from attacking in the first place.

[Vyluria-Aseko]

Inb4 modern war becomes so expensive that we start making ww2 era weapons again

[Bear Stearns]

Inb4 modern war becomes so expensive that we start making ww2 era weapons again

Given that AK-47s from the 1950s have proven to still be effective against modern NATO forces even in 2019, there's probably some truth to this.

[Bahktar]

It's not surprising that Russian - Chinese unity in a conflict against the USA would cause NATO and their allies some trouble.

China wouldn't go to war with the USA, but that's besides the point.

Either way, the fact that Russia could roll in Eastern Europe is not a surprise, but it's going to only be a matter of time for NATO to roll them back to the border. The obvious solution is to help the Baltic States reinforce their military forces and to station real NATO units in the Baltic States rather than token units to create a real and strong deterrent against Russian aggression.

It would be a political calculation once Russia rolls over the Baltic States if war were to start now.
Is NATO and their members states willing to commit or not?

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

Crazy idea:

we don't go to war with Russia and China or anyone and simply live in peace with them

[Bahktar]

Crazy idea:

we don't go to war with Russia and China or anyone and simply live in peace with them

Good idea:
We don't go to war with Russia and China but at the same time "we" don't bend down at their every will.

[Lord Dominator]

Clickbait title is clickbaity, no duh that Russia and China can defeat the US in their near-literal backyards that are halfway around the world from the US.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

Crazy idea:

we don't go to war with Russia and China or anyone and simply live in peace with them

Good idea:
We don't go to war with Russia and China but at the same time "we" don't bend down at their every will.

Even better idea:

unite all the nations in a parliament assembly, have the world governed by zed parliament assembly, invest trillions into fusion, colonize the Moon, Mars and, Alpha Centari as a united humanity space empire

along the way cure cancer stop global warming and do all the other neat shit science can do for mankind

[The Feylands]

NATO and therefore the US should really step it up in Europe if they want to curb Russian imperialism and the subsequent destruction of eastern Europe. Baltic countries may escape because of NATO memberships but countries like Ukraine and Belarus will most likely cease to exist in the future.

This is what a so-called "mutlipolar" world is in practice. A bunch of Asian regional powers with imperialist policies destroying nations and people's lives while the US observes from afar.

Because it's already gone so well when the US (along with Europe's usual worst friend - France) tried to make Syria cease exist, like it did with Libya and Iraq. Didn't destroy any peoples lives for no good reason at all. Didn't give us any sort of of asylum crisis and bunch of ultra-salafi jihadist cults that wanna kill us all...?

And the fiscal cliff is killing the US... as long as they don't do the sensible thing and slash military spending.

Meh. Leave Estonia and the Baltics to us Nordics like in the good old days. We'll protect Ukraine along with the poles like back in the days of Charles XII. Poland is a bit weird and medieval but I trust the resolve of its people to not experience Russian domination again (they really ought to settle the score with Germany though... and with the Jews... ). Belarus (White Russia) on the other hand is probably gonna continue to be part of Putin's "Union State" and there's little we can do about that. It's existence as a country is some kind of result of the Soviet Union's internal divisions in any case.

While our current foreign policy towards Putin seems to be created by 14-year olds (underwater morse signals saying Sweden is "gay" to scare away Russian submarines ) - I don't think outright hostility to Russia is gonna be helpful. We need to know where we have them and that they're not up to something, and then ideally we could have a normal relationship, as we can with any other foreign power that looks to its own interests before ours or anybody elses. I agree that Putin's Russia is a legitimate concern for its smaller neighbours. Alexei Navalny would probably be a better choice for the russkies. But I doubt that the US creating chaos and screwing up again and again across the world is anything but a PR boost for old Vladimir...

Just like neocons can get a little black-and-white, so can "anti-neocons". China and Russia are not always BFF:s (some russkies think China is taking over Siberia), neither is the ME split between Iran and the Saudis only. All of these countries have a variety of relations with each other, in what could be perceived in the different "camp". What we can do to protect the peace is to open up for trade like China is doing with the new silk roads, so that there are too many interests and investments for the various superpowers to allow for a war.

[Evil Dictators Happyland]

Since when was it not relatively common knowledge that Russia and China could crush tiny nations on their border?
The point we're making is not "we can defeat the Russian Army with the forces we have in Estonia". The point we're making is "if you attack Estonia, we can and will turn Russia to radioactive ash". Estonia's not worth that, so Russia won't attack. Same deal with China and Taiwan, or North Korea and South Korea (though that one is a bit more questionable).

I feel like nuking all of Russia over an invasion of Estonia (population 1.3 mm) is pretty heinous.

Most likely, a war between Russia and America over Estonia wouldn't immediately go nuclear (both sides would probably try to test the other and see how far they're willing to go), but the nukes would start flying pretty quickly if neither side backs down. Either that, or a conventional war starts, and the nukes are delayed until one side or the other starts losing badly.
No matter how you slice it, the only thing keeping Putin from trying to get the Baltic States back is the threat of war with the United States, and there is no scenario where a serious Russo-American war doesn't turn nuclear. Which is exactly why it won't happen - Putin knows this, and he's not about to risk everything on the gamble that America's unwilling to use its nuclear arsenal.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

I feel like nuking all of Russia over an invasion of Estonia (population 1.3 mm) is pretty heinous.

Most likely, a war between Russia and America over Estonia wouldn't immediately go nuclear (both sides would probably try to test the other and see how far they're willing to go), but the nukes would start flying pretty quickly if neither side backs down. Either that, or a conventional war starts, and the nukes are delayed until one side or the other starts losing badly.
No matter how you slice it, the only thing keeping Putin from trying to get the Baltic States back is the threat of war with the United States, and there is no scenario where a serious Russo-American war doesn't turn nuclear. Which is exactly why it won't happen - Putin knows this, and he's not about to risk everything on the gamble that America's unwilling to use its nuclear arsenal.

even more reasons why we should live and peace and not kill millions, perhaps billions of people

[Papalotltlan]

Most likely, a war between Russia and America over Estonia wouldn't immediately go nuclear (both sides would probably try to test the other and see how far they're willing to go), but the nukes would start flying pretty quickly if neither side backs down. Either that, or a conventional war starts, and the nukes are delayed until one side or the other starts losing badly.
No matter how you slice it, the only thing keeping Putin from trying to get the Baltic States back is the threat of war with the United States, and there is no scenario where a serious Russo-American war doesn't turn nuclear. Which is exactly why it won't happen - Putin knows this, and he's not about to risk everything on the gamble that America's unwilling to use its nuclear arsenal.

even more reasons why we should live and peace and not kill millions, perhaps billions of people

Sorry, but I'm gonna need more reasons as to why we shouldn't do that.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

even more reasons why we should live and peace and not kill millions, perhaps billions of people

Sorry, but I'm gonna need more reasons as to why we shouldn't do that.

"killing is bad"- Every nation and religion to ever exist

for more reasons, please refer to Edwin Starr

[Washington Resistance Army]

Sorry, but I'm gonna need more reasons as to why we shouldn't do that.

"killing is bad"- Every nation and religion to ever exist

Well that's just not true.

[Papalotltlan]

Sorry, but I'm gonna need more reasons as to why we shouldn't do that.

"killing is bad"- Every nation and religion to ever exist

for more reasons, please refer to Edwin Starr

Yeahhhhhhh, about that...

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

"killing is bad"- Every nation and religion to ever exist

for more reasons, please refer to Edwin Starr

Yeahhhhhhh, about that...

Aztecs didn't allow for people to be randomly killed not for a sacrifice

[Nea Byzantia]

This is just another attempt by the Pentagon and the Military Industrial Complex to justify their massive bloated budgets, and wring even more money out of the American tax-payer. Unfortunately, this sort of scare-mongering is so common, it isn't a surprise anymore.

And of course the United States is worried about "big bad" Russia and China, its been accustomed to being the Sole Great Power since the Soviet Union keeled over in 1991. What? You mean Francis Fukuyama's "End of History" didn't come?...

inb4: "Are you ACTUALLY defending Russia and China"...I can just feel all the American Apple-Pie eating neo-cons preparing to nuke me with responses.

[Novus America]

Inb4 modern war becomes so expensive that we start making ww2 era weapons again

Given that AK-47s from the 1950s have proven to still be effective against modern NATO forces even in 2019, there's probably some truth to this.

The M14 and M16 were developed in the 50s, and deployed in the early 60s.

[The South Falls]

This is why we should focus our resources on defeating China, instead of focusing it on propping up some puppet somewhere. We have the wherewithal. We have the capital. Now it is our time to build up.

[Internationalist Bastard]

I like the option where we don’t fight wars personally but that ain’t happening so

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

This is just another attempt by the Pentagon and the Military Industrial Complex to justify their massive bloated budgets, and wring even more money out of the American tax-payer. Unfortunately, this sort of scare-mongering is so common, it isn't a surprise anymore.

And of course the United States is worried about "big bad" Russia and China, its been accustomed to being the Sole Great Power since the Soviet Union keeled over in 1991. What? You mean Francis Fukuyama's "End of History" didn't come?...

inb4: "Are you ACTUALLY defending Russia and China"...I can just feel all the American Apple-Pie eating neo-cons preparing to nuke me with responses.

tbh the military just needs to stop being wasteful with it's spending

but you know, it would be better if we didn't have war at all

[Novus America]

This is just another attempt by the Pentagon and the Military Industrial Complex to justify their massive bloated budgets, and wring even more money out of the American tax-payer. Unfortunately, this sort of scare-mongering is so common, it isn't a surprise anymore.

And of course the United States is worried about "big bad" Russia and China, its been accustomed to being the Sole Great Power since the Soviet Union keeled over in 1991. The "End of History" didn't come...

inb4: "Are you ACTUALLY defending Russia and China"...I can just feel all the American Apple-Pie eating neo-cons preparing to nuke me with responses.

We now know of course the End of History was total BS.
That is true.
Which means we have to shift back to our Cold War stance.

Which means a return to Cold War type military spending.

[Novus America]

This is just another attempt by the Pentagon and the Military Industrial Complex to justify their massive bloated budgets, and wring even more money out of the American tax-payer. Unfortunately, this sort of scare-mongering is so common, it isn't a surprise anymore.

And of course the United States is worried about "big bad" Russia and China, its been accustomed to being the Sole Great Power since the Soviet Union keeled over in 1991. What? You mean Francis Fukuyama's "End of History" didn't come?...

inb4: "Are you ACTUALLY defending Russia and China"...I can just feel all the American Apple-Pie eating neo-cons preparing to nuke me with responses.

tbh the military just needs to stop being wasteful with it's spending

but you know, it would be better if we didn't have war at all

If you want peace, prepare for war. Be strong enough and people do not want to attack you.
That is the essence of deterrence.

[Internationalist Bastard]

This is why we should focus our resources on defeating China, instead of focusing it on propping up some puppet somewhere. We have the wherewithal. We have the capital. Now it is our time to build up.

I’m not sure we could Cold War China to death, not without doing something really crippling to their economy

[Nea Byzantia]

This is just another attempt by the Pentagon and the Military Industrial Complex to justify their massive bloated budgets, and wring even more money out of the American tax-payer. Unfortunately, this sort of scare-mongering is so common, it isn't a surprise anymore.

And of course the United States is worried about "big bad" Russia and China, its been accustomed to being the Sole Great Power since the Soviet Union keeled over in 1991. The "End of History" didn't come...

inb4: "Are you ACTUALLY defending Russia and China"...I can just feel all the American Apple-Pie eating neo-cons preparing to nuke me with responses.

We now know of course the End of History was total BS.
That is true.
Which means we have to shift back to our Cold War stance.

Which means a return to Cold War type military spending.

Why does it HAVE to be Cold War? Why can't each of the Powers agree to Spheres of Influence, and at least TRY to leave each other alone?

I'm not naive enough to believe that conflict will never come; but we can try to at least be civil, no?