50 Dead After New Zealand Terrorist Attack

[Thanatttynia]

The suggestion that this type of rhetoric is socially acceptable (let alone, as some have said, fundamental to politics or commentary in the West) is disingenuous. These people are drawn to this toxic shit because it's taboo. Fox News and Trump aren't far-right, they're just unwilling to risk their own popularity with the far-right by denouncing them.

So yeah, like I said, shilling for them.

Well, 'shilling' implies they're doing it in service of some greater goal, which I find hard to believe. In any case, it's not socially acceptable.

[Vassenor]

Pretty sure the President doesn't write legislation.

Christ...man...have a little nuance.

I'm not the one talking about how Trump has governed entirely based on what Congress has done.

[Ostroeuropa]

So yeah, like I said, shilling for them.

Well, 'shilling' implies they're doing it in service of some greater goal, which I find hard to believe. In any case, it's not socially acceptable.

Trump and the rest of the right wing are doing what they intended to do. Relying on the division they have actively cultivated in the populace to allow them to run off with all the money.

[Bear Stearns]

Christ...man...have a little nuance.

I'm not the one talking about how Trump has governed entirely based on what Congress has done.

Do I really need to explain to you that the President signs legislation passed by Congress?

Or in the case of Trump, basically whatever Lindsay Graham and Mitch McConnell want, which takes us back to my original point that when you get to the meat and potatoes we basically have another establishment Republican in the White House.

[Vassenor]

I'm not the one talking about how Trump has governed entirely based on what Congress has done.

Do I really need to explain to you that the President signs legislation passed by Congress?

Or in the case of Trump, basically whatever Lindsay Graham and Mitch McConnell want, which takes us back to my original point that when you get to the meat and potatoes we basically have another establishment Republican in the White House.

Only because you've stripped out all the stuff he's actually done.

Unless you want to explain how Romney would've tanked the US' soft power on the global stage too.

[Telconi]

Debatable.

And how's that?

By being your opinion, and an awful one at that.

[Thanatttynia]

Well, 'shilling' implies they're doing it in service of some greater goal, which I find hard to believe. In any case, it's not socially acceptable.

Trump and the rest of the right wing are doing what they intended to do. Relying on the division they have actively cultivated in the populace to allow them to run off with all the money.

Right, the idea that they care about anything beyond their own greed is nonsensical. Conspiracy theorising is unnecessary when what they're doing is bad enough.

[Senkaku]

I've been thinking about this all day. There were some toddlers playing outside on the grass as I was eating and catching up on news about it and watching Ardern speak, and it just made me incredibly depressed. And if I'm stressed and scared and sad about it, I can't imagine how my Muslim classmates and friends and fellow citizens in the US must be feeling, to say nothing of those in New Zealand and those who've lost people.

I thought he was trying to get the US gun control lobby to cause a civil war. Not get the New Zealand government to implement stricter gun control laws.

I'm under the impression it was to get the Americans to get the gun lobby to stand up for their rights or something like that. I'm not entirely sure, I only had part of the manifesto read to me.

I think it was basically to try to just further divide the US, with the ultimate goal of having the left overplay its hand and get slaughtered.

It kinda does.

It has loads of echo chambers all online that invite people in by first mocking SJW's and then grinding it down to where they circle jerk about even more alt right shit.

You're seeing the result of the push factor. People do not just up and decide to go join these echo chambers, as many are noting, this trend is growing despite the fact they are actively marginalized and containment strategies are being attempted, but those strategies are failing.

You know why?

Because people don't have to join an echo chamber to realize feminism is a misandrist hate movement. They just have to listen to the things feminists say. They don't have to go join stormfront to realize Muslim extremism is given preferential treatment by the left and consequently the establishment. They don't have to join an echo chamber. They just have to exist in society.

These people also aren't represented by the right wing and capitalism, so they have nowhere to go.

At that point, they will seek out people willing to discuss those things. But because nobody engages with those topics in good faith due to ideological dogmatisms and hatred for whites and males who point out they are being treated unfairly, those individuals are pushed into echo chambers. Once inside those echo chambers the natural thing happens and a spectrum of discourse evolves that does not include the viewpoints of those outside the group and thus doesn't empathize with them, their lives, or their experiences. (I.E, the exact problem the progressive left has in their treatment of white men guarantees the existence of white men with the same problem, reflected back.).

At one end of that spectrum, you get violence.

The progressive left has been actively hateful and hostile to white males for a while. They've committed a decades long epistemic injustice on the topic of anti-white racism and anti-male sexism. They have refused to alter their discourse or be accepting to peoples experiences and why they matter and have driven those people out of the conversation, and then they went and had their own. Because that group (the alt-right) lacks the power to use the state to enact their political violence like the progressive left does, they do it as individuals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemic_injustice

These are the consequences in political terms.

There's a simple way to solve it. Fix the left wing. You can stop being sexists and racists and driivng people out.

It's nice I can always rely on you to rationalize terrorism, be it in Toronto or Christchurch.

I mean Jesus Christ, Ostro. Maybe when someone mows fifty innocent people down in their houses of worship, you could do something other than rant about how the progressive left is to blame, and this guy is just some poor marginalized victim?

[Thanatttynia]

Do I really need to explain to you that the President signs legislation passed by Congress?

Or in the case of Trump, basically whatever Lindsay Graham and Mitch McConnell want, which takes us back to my original point that when you get to the meat and potatoes we basically have another establishment Republican in the White House.

Only because you've stripped out all the stuff he's actually done.

Unless you want to explain how Romney would've tanked the US' soft power on the global stage too.

It's not like he was a great diplomat, I seem to remember him fucking up a press stop on the eve of the 2012 Olympics by questioning security measures.

[Senkaku]

On that note i'm quite glad i live in the Netherlands, where even the (main) right-wing leader (Geert Wilders) condemmed the attacks in the most serious way possible. No excuses no nothing.



I've heard that story too, but i personally couldn't hear it in the video.



Perhaps yes, but it will become a lot harder, which is only a good thing.

Debatable.

If you can make gun-running to New Zealand turn a profit, then your business acumen would be wasted on gun-running to New Zealand- go on to bigger and better things

[Ostroeuropa]

Trump and the rest of the right wing are doing what they intended to do. Relying on the division they have actively cultivated in the populace to allow them to run off with all the money.

Right, the idea that they care about anything beyond their own greed is nonsensical. Conspiracy theorising is unnecessary when what they're doing is bad enough.

Right.
Now.

You're almost there, just go a step further.

MAYBE. The reason this keeps working, is that, and bare with me here...

They have framed the discussion in insoluble terms and you all bought it.

It is not a matter of us all adopting progressive identity politics and things working out okay for everyone.

Maybe, just maybe, they used their media and so on to actively cultivate a form of progressive politics that makes that impossible by, oh i don't know, making it misandrist and anti-white but convinced such a thing is impossible or doesn't matter and that its THE OTHER guys being unreasonable and tricked, while at the same time cultivating a far-right which has concluded that the progressive left is doing that intentionally and is their enemy and THE OTHER guys are being unreasonable and tricked?


Right?

Just maybe you guys aren't fucking smarter than the vast majority of white men? Maybe you're all being tricked by the same people you see actively tricking the other guys with their media but assume haven't hoodwinked you too?

Gets boring sometimes honestly. I'm so bored of the progressive left and the far-right.

[Torrocca]

You're seeing the result of the push factor. People do not just up and decide to go join these echo chambers, as many are noting, this trend is growing despite the fact they are actively marginalized and containment strategies are being attempted, but those strategies are failing.

You know why?

Because people don't have to join an echo chamber to realize feminism is a misandrist hate movement. They just have to listen to the things feminists say. They don't have to go join stormfront to realize Muslim extremism is given preferential treatment by the left and consequently the establishment. They don't have to join an echo chamber. They just have to exist in society.

These people also aren't represented by the right wing and capitalism, so they have nowhere to go.

At that point, they will seek out people willing to discuss those things. But because nobody engages with those topics in good faith due to ideological dogmatisms and hatred for whites and males who point out they are being treated unfairly, those individuals are pushed into echo chambers. Once inside those echo chambers the natural thing happens and a spectrum of discourse evolves that does not include the viewpoints of those outside the group and thus doesn't empathize with them, their lives, or their experiences. (I.E, the exact problem the progressive left has in their treatment of white men guarantees the existence of white men with the same problem, reflected back.).

At one end of that spectrum, you get violence.

The progressive left has been actively hateful and hostile to white males for a while. They've committed a decades long epistemic injustice on the topic of anti-white racism and anti-male sexism. They have refused to alter their discourse or be accepting to peoples experiences and why they matter and have driven those people out of the conversation, and then they went and had their own. Because that group (the alt-right) lacks the power to use the state to enact their political violence like the progressive left does, they do it as individuals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemic_injustice

These are the consequences in political terms.

There's a simple way to solve it. Fix the left wing. You can stop being sexists and racists and driivng people out.

It's nice I can always rely on you to rationalize terrorism, be it in Toronto or Christchurch.

I mean Jesus Christ, Ostro. Maybe when someone mows fifty innocent people down in their houses of worship, you could do something other than rant about how the progressive left is to blame, and this guy is just some poor marginalized victim?

Like all the men trapped under the watchful, evil eye of the Feminist organization known as "Big Sister", the far-right's murderous extremists (and, by extension, the people and ideologies of the far-right which fuel that murderous extremism) can never have any form of self-agency. It must always be the fault of the "other" that they do evil acts, like murder close to half a hundred innocent people in a Mosque.

[The South Falls]

Debatable.

If you can make gun-running to New Zealand turn a profit, then your business acumen would be wasted on gun-running to New Zealand- go on to bigger and better things

Like gun run here.

[Thanatttynia]

Right, the idea that they care about anything beyond their own greed is nonsensical. Conspiracy theorising is unnecessary when what they're doing is bad enough.

snip

? I'm not sure I follow, lol. What are you asking me?

[Ostroeuropa]

Like all the men trapped under the watchful, evil eye of the Feminist organization known as "Big Sister", the far-right's murderous extremists (and, by extension, the people and ideologies of the far-right which fuel that murderous extremism) can never have any form of self-agency. It must always be the fault of the "other" that they do evil acts, like murder close to half a hundred innocent people in a Mosque.

Whatever it takes for you to refuse to change man. I note you didn't bother addressing the fundamental point.

I've been thinking about this all day. There were some toddlers playing outside on the grass as I was eating and catching up on news about it and watching Ardern speak, and it just made me incredibly depressed. And if I'm stressed and scared and sad about it, I can't imagine how my Muslim classmates and friends and fellow citizens in the US must be feeling, to say nothing of those in New Zealand and those who've lost people.

I'm under the impression it was to get the Americans to get the gun lobby to stand up for their rights or something like that. I'm not entirely sure, I only had part of the manifesto read to me.

I think it was basically to try to just further divide the US, with the ultimate goal of having the left overplay its hand and get slaughtered.

You're seeing the result of the push factor. People do not just up and decide to go join these echo chambers, as many are noting, this trend is growing despite the fact they are actively marginalized and containment strategies are being attempted, but those strategies are failing.

You know why?

Because people don't have to join an echo chamber to realize feminism is a misandrist hate movement. They just have to listen to the things feminists say. They don't have to go join stormfront to realize Muslim extremism is given preferential treatment by the left and consequently the establishment. They don't have to join an echo chamber. They just have to exist in society.

These people also aren't represented by the right wing and capitalism, so they have nowhere to go.

At that point, they will seek out people willing to discuss those things. But because nobody engages with those topics in good faith due to ideological dogmatisms and hatred for whites and males who point out they are being treated unfairly, those individuals are pushed into echo chambers. Once inside those echo chambers the natural thing happens and a spectrum of discourse evolves that does not include the viewpoints of those outside the group and thus doesn't empathize with them, their lives, or their experiences. (I.E, the exact problem the progressive left has in their treatment of white men guarantees the existence of white men with the same problem, reflected back.).

At one end of that spectrum, you get violence.

The progressive left has been actively hateful and hostile to white males for a while. They've committed a decades long epistemic injustice on the topic of anti-white racism and anti-male sexism. They have refused to alter their discourse or be accepting to peoples experiences and why they matter and have driven those people out of the conversation, and then they went and had their own. Because that group (the alt-right) lacks the power to use the state to enact their political violence like the progressive left does, they do it as individuals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemic_injustice

These are the consequences in political terms.

There's a simple way to solve it. Fix the left wing. You can stop being sexists and racists and driivng people out.

It's nice I can always rely on you to rationalize terrorism, be it in Toronto or Christchurch.

I mean Jesus Christ, Ostro. Maybe when someone mows fifty innocent people down in their houses of worship, you could do something other than rant about how the progressive left is to blame, and this guy is just some poor marginalized victim?

When Muslim terrorists lash out and people go on about how they're just bad people with bad thoughts that need to be censored I bring up the way we bomb the middle east and shit mate. so... No, i'm not going to stop pushing for a sensible reaction to the situations that occur.

[Ostroeuropa]

snip

? I'm not sure I follow, lol. What are you asking me?

I'm saying, you seem to understand that Trump and the elites have divided everyone to run off with the money.

Do you think they would go about that by focusing on just fucking with the way one particular set of people sees the world, or by fucking with everybody?

[San Lumen]

Good to know action will be taken. Maybe they will go the route Australia did which has not had a mass shooting since their last one in the mid 90s when they effectively banned almost all guns if im not mistaken.

This literally isn't true.

so what did Australia do in the mid 90s

[Torrocca]

Like all the men trapped under the watchful, evil eye of the Feminist organization known as "Big Sister", the far-right's murderous extremists (and, by extension, the people and ideologies of the far-right which fuel that murderous extremism) can never have any form of self-agency. It must always be the fault of the "other" that they do evil acts, like murder close to half a hundred innocent people in a Mosque.

Whatever it takes for you to refuse to change man.

Still not a man, chief.

I note you didn't bother addressing the fundamental point.

You mean your fundamental point that essentially boils down to it being the fault of everyone except for the people directly responsible for the atrocity at hand?

Because I addressed it as the bullshit that it was.

[Italios]

I didn't hear about the attack until hours after it occurred, for some reason, despite watching the late-night news and having news notifications, I didn't hear a peep about it. the next morning I heard some of my friends mention it offhand. It feels like a long time since this kind of large-scale, terroristic catastrophe happened in a western country. every time it happens it makes my heart heavier, and i know it makes humanity's moral compass sway in the direction of wickedness, and by extension, anguish and disorder. my thoughts are with the dead and injured and their families.

i read the attacker's manifesto out of morbid curiosity. i didn't feel much guilt for it, my reasoning being he will never know and i don't consider myself at high-risk of becoming an "eco-fascist." the shooter proclaims almost proudly his affiliation, or lack thereof, with leftism, the right-wing, neo-nazism, racism, socialism, and so on. he mentions his political past which jumps from communist to socialist to fascist. it was a 73-page of a man who was seeking validation from other insecure, "introverted," directionless young men who were disillusioned with the world but also lacked a vision for it, hence his constant childish meme references . he travelled europe aimlessly with little substance to say on his journeys. i think these endless pages of debate are pointless. if brenton tarrant had woken up with a flu the day the attack happened, he wouldn't have carried it out, and the next week he would've been a neocon.

if you concede to any of this man's postulates, you have have no spine, like him. if you make excuses for his violence, you are literally being persuaded by fluff. and that is sad.

[Ostroeuropa]

Whatever it takes for you to refuse to change man.

Still not a man, chief.

I note you didn't bother addressing the fundamental point.

You mean your fundamental point that essentially boils down to it being the fault of everyone except for the people directly responsible for the atrocity at hand?

Because I addressed it as the bullshit that it was.

Sorry, I was using the term flippantly.

When you're discussing what makes people your enemy, it's pretty useless to say "Well they're just our enemy and they should stop because we've decided they're not allowed to be that." I'm discussing how to resolve the situation.

[Italios]

Still not a man, chief.



You mean your fundamental point that essentially boils down to it being the fault of everyone except for the people directly responsible for the atrocity at hand?

Because I addressed it as the bullshit that it was.

Sorry, I was using the term flippantly.

When you're discussing what makes people your enemy, it's pretty useless to say "Well they're just our enemy and they should stop because we've decided they're not allowed to be that." I'm discussing how to resolve the situation.

this man was directionless and was seeking comfort with political communities with extreme views. he felt most comfortable, in the end, with a community that perpetrated violence and fed on anger. this man wasn't interested in "resolving" anything, and i don't see why we should entertain the idea either.

[Torrocca]

Still not a man, chief.



You mean your fundamental point that essentially boils down to it being the fault of everyone except for the people directly responsible for the atrocity at hand?

Because I addressed it as the bullshit that it was.

Sorry, I was using the term flippantly.

Understood.

When you're discussing what makes people your enemy, it's pretty useless to say "Well they're just our enemy and they should stop because we've decided they're not allowed to be that." I'm discussing how to resolve the situation.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that it's not the fault of "le progressivism" that they're reactionary assholes. They're reactionary assholes because they've grown up in some sort of environment or another that's identified an "other" as their enemy, which, as seen in New Zealand, leads to murderous results.

It's the same shitty reason why there's a constant back and forth between Christians killing Muslims and Muslims killing Christians. It's all reactionary bullshit born of previous reactionary bullshit.

[Ostroeuropa]

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that it's not the fault of "le progressivism" that they're reactionary assholes. They're reactionary assholes because they've grown up in some sort of environment or another that's identified an "other" as their enemy, which, as seen in New Zealand, leads to murderous results.

It's the same shitty reason why there's a constant back and forth between Christians killing Muslims and Muslims killing Christians. It's all reactionary bullshit born of previous reactionary bullshit.

You're so close here with the second part, but can't seem to apply the same clarity of thought and perception to the first dynamic you mentioned.

[Thanatttynia]

? I'm not sure I follow, lol. What are you asking me?

I'm saying, you seem to understand that Trump and the elites have divided everyone to run off with the money.

Do you think they would go about that by focusing on just fucking with the way one particular set of people sees the world, or by fucking with everybody?

Tangential point but if I'm being honest I don't think it really is about money (for Trump, not Fox); I think he corralled himself into a situation because he's an attention-seeker and doesn't care about the consequences of what he does.

Main point, no, (I think) I agree with you, but it would depend on what exactly you're talking about. Also, I don't really believe a shadowy cabal of elites are fucking with us on purpose if that's the impression I've given off, I think that type of thinking veers too close to the conspiracy theorising we were just talking about.

[Costa Fierro]

When you're discussing what makes people your enemy, it's pretty useless to say "Well they're just our enemy and they should stop because we've decided they're not allowed to be that." I'm discussing how to resolve the situation.

The situation has already been resolved, Ostro. The terrorist is in prison, he will likely be charged with multiple counts of murder, and hopefully an exceptional sentence will be handed down to him. Not to tarnish all Australians, but it is very well known for its historically racist policies and the kinds of white supremacy that lead to this man committing an act of terror. This isn't a result of supposedly government policies, this is simply a result of a man being raised inside an environment where this kind of intolerance was fostered. It's not pushback against Muslim migration. Muslims in Australia count for 2.6%, this idea that it is invasion, or that Australia, New Zealand, or any kind of post-colonial state is "European" is wrong. There's no mass influx of Muslims, there's no mass invasion. This is simply the mass delusion of nationalism, pure and simple.