NationStates

How could the Soviet Union Win the Cold War?

My answer:
The USSR is at it's peak during the Stalin and Khruschev era, it is infact stronger
than the west at the time. Problem is that the USSR did not have an atomic bomb available unlike the west which had multiple atomic bombs.
But AMerican children were big in Communism and socialism back then so the idea for the USSR to influence the United States to convert into a communist country and civil war could be necessary for that transition. AFter the USA turns communist it could start working with the USSR and take on NATO in Europe and japan in the pacific.

Going all out in spreading communism right after WW2 could have been a winner, supporting commies in Greece, China, Korea and Western Europe (particularly France and Italy). Even then, its a long shot since the USSR lacked atomic bombs, was exhausted industrially and manpower-wise.

Another alternative is the typical Cold War gone Hot in the 80's. The USSR wasn't doing all that well, but military-wise it was much stronger than Europe. Still, that'd probably devolve into nuclear war or stalemate.

The Srovsk State wrote:How could the Soviet Union Win the Cold War?

My answer:
The USSR is at it's peak during the Stalin and Khruschev era, it is infact stronger
than the west at the time. Problem is that the USSR did not have an atomic bomb available unlike the west which had multiple atomic bombs.
But AMerican children were big in Communism and socialism back then so the idea for the USSR to influence the United States to convert into a communist country and civil war could be necessary for that transition. AFter the USA turns communist it could start working with the USSR and take on NATO in Europe and japan in the pacific.

You are ignoring the fact that the defeat of the USSR was economic, not military. Implementing Perestroika in the 1970s would have made a massive difference, it was too little too late by the 1980s.

Best chance is if someone like Lenin realizes that Stalin is a threat much sooner and has him offed. Then you can maybe avoid the purges that removed so many of the most experienced people from the government and military. But I don't think the Soviet had the means to win the cold war. That would require changes that were out of their control(Like capturing most of the german rocket scientists setting back the American missile program for years) or decisions that would seriously alter what the Soviet Union was(such as the Soviet Union staying an Axis power.)

The New California Republic wrote:You are ignoring the fact that the defeat of the USSR was economic, not military. Implementing Perestroika in the 1970s would have made a massive difference, it was too little too late by the 1980s.

I don't think the Soviet Union can avoid economic defeat in the long term. We can presume that in our alternate timeline that the Americans will still force the Soviets to invest more in military then their economy can bear.

Aclion wrote:

The New California Republic wrote:You are ignoring the fact that the defeat of the USSR was economic, not military. Implementing Perestroika in the 1970s would have made a massive difference, it was too little too late by the 1980s.

I don't think the Soviet Union can avoid economic defeat in the long term. We can presume that in our alternate timeline that the Americans will still force the Soviets to invest more in military then their economy can bear.

Sure they can. The 1970s showed a period of economic stagnation that would have been countered by Perestroika. The problems and eventual defeat of the 1980s can be traced back to the stagnation of the 70s. Perestroika showed great promise in countering those problems, but it was essentially a solution to 1970s problems, rather than 1970s problems that had been left to fester for over a decade. Short-term loss of military parity by implementing the reforms earlier is a small price to pay for survival. But Brezhnev was a blockhead who would have never had the constitution to go for something like Perestroika.

Outlast the United States.

Luziyca wrote:Outlast the United States.

Which they couldn’t.

The Srovsk State wrote:How could the Soviet Union Win the Cold War?

Only chance: by listening to Dubcek and starting perestrojka 17 years earlier, trading massively with Western Europe, and opening up to tourism and cultural interchange.
Problem: Brezhnev, the Soviet military/police apparatus, and (not entirely unjustified) paranoia.

The New California Republic wrote:

The Srovsk State wrote:How could the Soviet Union Win the Cold War?

My answer:
The USSR is at it's peak during the Stalin and Khruschev era, it is infact stronger
than the west at the time. Problem is that the USSR did not have an atomic bomb available unlike the west which had multiple atomic bombs.
But AMerican children were big in Communism and socialism back then so the idea for the USSR to influence the United States to convert into a communist country and civil war could be necessary for that transition. AFter the USA turns communist it could start working with the USSR and take on NATO in Europe and japan in the pacific.

You are ignoring the fact that the defeat of the USSR was economic, not military. Implementing Perestroika in the 1970s would have made a massive difference, it was too little too late by the 1980s.

^ this. The only way the Soviet had a chance was to isolate the entire eastern block from the west, and build up their internal consumer infrastructure. They simply could not win the peace race.

Ethel mermania wrote:

The New California Republic wrote:You are ignoring the fact that the defeat of the USSR was economic, not military. Implementing Perestroika in the 1970s would have made a massive difference, it was too little too late by the 1980s.

^ this. The only way the Soviet had a chance was to isolate the entire eastern block from the west, and build up their internal consumer infrastructure. They simply could not win the peace race.

It's actually very ironic that Gorbachev himself said to Erich Honecker "He who comes too late is punished by life", when a man like Gorbachev came too late to save the USSR...

They could have won in 1952. By using that op mechanized wave. Couple of nukes would have dropped in Mscow though.

Not by war, but with ideas. A deep and all-encompassing plan using KGB infiltration, subversive propaganda, and disinformation to infect the minds of America academia with poisonous, anti-American ideas, and allow these to fester for decades to ensure that entire generations of Americans have grown up with Marxist propaganda to the point where they'd bring about their own societal ruin themselves. The long con.

The the thing is, the Soviets actually tried this and got some results, but they collapsed before they could really accelerate it.

The New California Republic wrote:

Ethel mermania wrote:
^ this. The only way the Soviet had a chance was to isolate the entire eastern block from the west, and build up their internal consumer infrastructure. They simply could not win the peace race.

It's actually very ironic that Gorbachev himself said to Erich Honecker "He who comes too late is punished by life", when a man like Gorbachev came too late to save the USSR...

Which is a good thing. The USSR was no good anyway.

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:

The New California Republic wrote:It's actually very ironic that Gorbachev himself said to Erich Honecker "He who comes too late is punished by life", when a man like Gorbachev came too late to save the USSR...

Which is a good thing. The USSR was no good anyway.

Beria was as a literal pedophile and sexual monster, however, he was a pragmatist and would have made the USSR adopt a similar policy to what the Chinese do today after the disaster that was Chairman Mao.

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:

The New California Republic wrote:It's actually very ironic that Gorbachev himself said to Erich Honecker "He who comes too late is punished by life", when a man like Gorbachev came too late to save the USSR...

Which is a good thing. The USSR was no good anyway.

I'm actually quite pragmatic regarding it. Plus they did make some quite decent consumer products if they really put their mind to it. I've got a 1970s-ish mechanical travel alarm clock from the USSR that is one of the best alarm clocks that I have ever owned. Sure, I had to give it a service myself by disassembling it, cleaning and re-oiling the bearings, and reassembling it, but all clocks of that vintage need a service. It's just as reliable and almost as accurate as a modern quartz clock, which is good going as far as mechanical clocks are concerned.

If America really fucked up

The Srovsk State wrote:How could the Soviet Union Win the Cold War?

Stop being authoritarian and repressive?

Tareldar wrote:

The Srovsk State wrote:How could the Soviet Union Win the Cold War?

Stop being authoritarian and repressive?

Something that's inherent in communism.

The west won bc it was more socioeconomically unified and aggressive. After WW2 the Soviets should have restored Comintern and made it into a socialist alternative to the UN, seeing as the UN gave the West tremendous favoritism and legitimacy. If a hypothetical Fourth International existed and was actively involved in world affairs, it would thrust communism to the forefront and make it look more favorable to developing nations,

Furthermore, they should’ve avoided Russian hegemony. A combination of racism and nationalism made the USSR unattractive to other communists. The communist world very begrudgingly followed the USSR. The Warsaw Pact was a total failure because if this. A Pan-Eurasian communist alliance would’ve been much better, including China and other Asian socialists. If the Sino-Soviet split never happened and global socialist solidarity continued, the East would be far more formidable.

Lastly, political de-Stalinization should have happened smoother, and should not have accompanied economic liberalization as well. The way the Soviet Union reformed after Stalin was ineffective and basically told the people “hey, the West’s way is better.” The west agreed. If the Soviets could have ended purges and cult-of-personality politics without weakening socialist institutions, socialism would’ve been seen as more favorable both within socialist countries and abroad.

Tareldar wrote:

The Srovsk State wrote:How could the Soviet Union Win the Cold War?

Stop being authoritarian and repressive?

Not the whole point of it.
One could stay authoritatian and repressive, and making its own economy work. See China.

The Srovsk State wrote:How could the Soviet Union Win the Cold War?

My answer:
The USSR is at it's peak during the Stalin and Khruschev era, it is infact stronger
than the west at the time. Problem is that the USSR did not have an atomic bomb available unlike the west which had multiple atomic bombs.
But AMerican children were big in Communism and socialism back then so the idea for the USSR to influence the United States to convert into a communist country and civil war could be necessary for that transition. AFter the USA turns communist it could start working with the USSR and take on NATO in Europe and japan in the pacific.

First, don't spend so much on building a bazillion weapons and having massive armed forces. Second, integrate NEP with Communism, and slowly move toward Socialism. Third, don't use ethnic-based politics. Fourth, create a reserve fund for when oil prices were going to be in the dumps. Fifth, slowly democratize, so that traitors like Gorbachev don't come to power. Sixth, don't fuck up the relationship with China. Seventh, focus more on the developing Asian countries.

USSR didn't need to "win" the Cold War - just last long enough until the Asian powers turned the World from a Bipolar World into a Multipolar World. And then it'd be a whole new ballgame.

The New California Republic wrote:You are ignoring the fact that the defeat of the USSR was economic, not military. Implementing Perestroika in the 1970s would have made a massive difference, it was too little too late by the 1980s.

Bingo! Although the economic reforms should've started earlier.

The New California Republic wrote:

Ethel mermania wrote:
^ this. The only way the Soviet had a chance was to isolate the entire eastern block from the west, and build up their internal consumer infrastructure. They simply could not win the peace race.

It's actually very ironic that Gorbachev himself said to Erich Honecker "He who comes too late is punished by life", when a man like Gorbachev came too late to save the USSR...

Gorbachev also committed ethnic cleansing, so he deserves everything that's coming at him.

Risottia wrote:

The Srovsk State wrote:How could the Soviet Union Win the Cold War?

Only chance: by listening to Dubcek and starting perestrojka 17 years earlier, trading massively with Western Europe, and opening up to tourism and cultural interchange.
Problem: Brezhnev, the Soviet military/police apparatus, and (not entirely unjustified) paranoia.

Seventeen? I was thinking the 1950s or 1960s

But yeah, Dubcek was right.

Shofercia wrote:Seventeen? I was thinking the 1950s or 1960s

Well, 1968 is 17 years before 1985, and it's still in the 60's.

Shofercia wrote:

The New California Republic wrote:You are ignoring the fact that the defeat of the USSR was economic, not military. Implementing Perestroika in the 1970s would have made a massive difference, it was too little too late by the 1980s.

Bingo! Although the economic reforms should've started earlier.

As an aside I think that the GDR could also have avoided collapse if they had implemented similar reforms in the 1970s. The Coffee Crisis should have rang alarm bells, and it should have signalled that economic reforms were needed immediately. However, Honecker did fuck all, and instead responded with mere window dressing like financing coffee production in Vietnam, which didn't result in any usable coffee being produced until—irony of ironies—1990!

The New California Republic wrote:

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Which is a good thing. The USSR was no good anyway.

I'm actually quite pragmatic regarding it. Plus they did make some quite decent consumer products if they really put their mind to it. I've got a 1970s-ish mechanical travel alarm clock from the USSR that is one of the best alarm clocks that I have ever owned. Sure, I had to give it a service myself by disassembling it, cleaning and re-oiling the bearings, and reassembling it, but all clocks of that vintage need a service. It's just as reliable and almost as accurate as a modern quartz clock, which is good going as far as mechanical clocks are concerned.

It makes sense why you would have an affinity for the U.S.S.R as you are a socialist. Good consumer products does not make a country good, especially when said country has a terrible human rights record.