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Operation Varsity Blues

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Shofercia
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Founded: Feb 22, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Shofercia » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:16 pm

Grand Kiwi island wrote:https://www.boston25news.com/news/national/operation-varsity-blues-5-things-to-know-about-the-college-cheating-scandal/929766414

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/fe ... spartanntp

Short hand: Several well to do high society people paid a ringleader 25 million dollars to fudge college entrance exams as well as falsify data stating their children were college athletes when they had no intentions of playing on the school teams. Some of the schools involved include Yale, UCLA, and University of Texas and several others. at least 2 colleges head tennis coaches were suspended due to this.

I find this funny and irritating that they'll allow to colleges to continue to raise tuition and give others IST (In state tuition) when there from another country entirely but they'll look the other way when massive fraud and bribery scandal happens with prestigious schools. I think all credits to those who got into school by this scheme should be nullified and have them be forced to pay for college on there own w/o state or federal financial aid.


I think that Professor Alan Dershowitz nailed it when he said that colleges are not giving out grades anymore, and those who are mostly give out As and Bs, allowing the students to just get by. If colleges stopped pampering the students, then the ones who were admitted, but weren't supposed to be there, would've failed out.


Grand Kiwi island wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:I was wondering when this would turn up here. You also have a typo in the last sentence of the first paragraph.

It has been fixed just like the exams were.


Zing!


Ethel mermania wrote:Weird, if you are going to spend 6.5 million to get your kid it, just do it the old fashioned way, donate to the football team.


That's the smart solution, if you can figure that out, your kid deserves to be in college :P


Bun Queen wrote:What's the point of doing that though? Colleges/Universitys are easy to get into. (Well here it is, but I'm not sure about American Universitys.)


Depends on where you're applying. The top tier universities are actually very hard to get into.
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If we tell the radical Republicans that there's proof that Global Warming doesn't exist in Death Valley, and the radical Democrats that there's proof of Russian Collusion there, would we have a better America?

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Shofercia
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Founded: Feb 22, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Shofercia » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:23 pm

US-SSR wrote:So basically the crime here was the parents and the ringleader consipring to disguise the bribe payments as tax-deductible contributions, amirite? Had they not done that all this would be above board, at least as far as the US Attorneys of the world would be concerned.

Anybody out there still concerned about affirmative action? Anyone? Bueller?


This was affirmative action... affirmative action for the desperate housewives who have a full house of cash :lol:


Valrifell wrote:I think this is just further proof that collegiate sportsball and associated scholarships are just super fucked.


Genuine athletic scholarships work. The "please take my son as a second string center, here's $500k for a new building" athletic scholarships are the laughing stock. There's actually a back up kicker position in some colleges... hey, maybe that's where Cody Parkey went :P


Risottia wrote:
95X wrote:According to the articles, there was blatant corruption and sophisticated methods of covering it up. Heads are already rolling and will probably continue to roll.

What I think is really too bad is the universities in question have very high entrance standards, and the fact students were admitted based on how much an athletic department employee was bribed on behalf of a wealthy family comes off as "egg on the face" of said standards.

I don't really get what "high standards" a university might have if they accept "athletic prowess" as a title of merit for admission.


Sports revenue is a huge driver for American Universities, which is very much unlike the European ones. If you are truly phenomenal at basketball or football, and happen to be male, the university will make a ton of money just by admitting you, unless you get injured. We're talking millions of dollars per student. Considering that most US universities aren't as financially well off as they pretend, they desperately need these funds. Texas Tech is still raking it in over the admission of Patrick Mahomes.
Ukraine - stop bombing innocent people! Pricks who burn other people alive should be punished.
Feel the Bern! Two actual females that can beat Trump: Gabbard & Klobuchar
Come, learn about Russian Culture! Bring Vodka and Ushanka. Interested in Slavic Culture? Fill this out.
If we tell the radical Republicans that there's proof that Global Warming doesn't exist in Death Valley, and the radical Democrats that there's proof of Russian Collusion there, would we have a better America?

(North) Kosovo is (a de facto part of) Serbia and Crimea is (a de facto part of) Russia! DonBass is De Facto Independent! Stand with NovoRossiya!
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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:12 pm

I want to ask a question. What is the parents motivation in this? There are legal fully tax deductible ways to get your kid into just about any school in America. You give yale 6.5 million dollars they name a building after you and treat your kid as a legacy and at the 35% bracket 2.5 mill can potentially come off your tax return. Why in gods green earth would you pay a bribe?
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Aclion
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Aclion » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:39 pm

Ethel mermania wrote:I want to ask a question. What is the parents motivation in this? There are legal fully tax deductible ways to get your kid into just about any school in America. You give yale 6.5 million dollars they name a building after you and treat your kid as a legacy and at the 35% bracket 2.5 mill can potentially come off your tax return. Why in gods green earth would you pay a bribe?

This way is a lot cheaper. Also schools still do have minimum requirements, even for legacy.

Shofercia wrote:I think that Professor Alan Dershowitz nailed it when he said that colleges are not giving out grades anymore, and those who are mostly give out As and Bs, allowing the students to just get by. If colleges stopped pampering the students, then the ones who were admitted, but weren't supposed to be there, would've failed out.

We're seeing that with affirmative action. The black attrition rate is abysmal. I'd be very interested to see how these students were comparing next to those who got in legitimatly.
Last edited by Aclion on Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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New haven america
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Postby New haven america » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:54 pm

Ethel mermania wrote:I want to ask a question. What is the parents motivation in this? There are legal fully tax deductible ways to get your kid into just about any school in America. You give yale 6.5 million dollars they name a building after you and treat your kid as a legacy and at the 35% bracket 2.5 mill can potentially come off your tax return. Why in gods green earth would you pay a bribe?

A. Because the system they used is actually cheaper and has a better guarantee of entry than straight donations.
B. Because a lot of parents want what's best for their children, and well off parents actually have the means to get their kids the best of the best regardless of their kids actual talent or skills or work ethic, thus insuring that their kids are most likely going to be better off than their parents (While also having an easier time keeping money within the family).
Last edited by New haven america on Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:00 am

New haven america wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:I want to ask a question. What is the parents motivation in this? There are legal fully tax deductible ways to get your kid into just about any school in America. You give yale 6.5 million dollars they name a building after you and treat your kid as a legacy and at the 35% bracket 2.5 mill can potentially come off your tax return. Why in gods green earth would you pay a bribe?

A. Because the system they used is actually cheaper and has a better guarantee of entry than straight donations.
B. Because a lot of parents want what's best for their children, and well off parents actually have the means to get their kids the best of the best regardless of their kids actual talent or skills or work ethic, thus insuring that their kids are most likely going to be better off than their parents (While also having an easier time keeping money within the family).


It's not cheaper is the point, the payouts were 200k and up depending on the school. That kind of money you work a deal the kid gets in, 200k will not buy yale, but 6.5 million, which was the maximum that was published, will.
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The blAAtschApen
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Postby The blAAtschApen » Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:02 am

Risottia wrote:
95X wrote:According to the articles, there was blatant corruption and sophisticated methods of covering it up. Heads are already rolling and will probably continue to roll.

What I think is really too bad is the universities in question have very high entrance standards, and the fact students were admitted based on how much an athletic department employee was bribed on behalf of a wealthy family comes off as "egg on the face" of said standards.

I don't really get what "high standards" a university might have if they accept "athletic prowess" as a title of merit for admission.


This indeed.

There are some Bachelor degrees in NL where this is relevant. Particularly the ALO(sports teacher for schools), and other sports related education tracks. But beyond that, I don't see it as that relevant. Dutch universities do have various affiliated student sports clubs. Run by students, but proud to represent the university in inter-university competitions.
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Novus America
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:44 am

New haven america wrote:This just in, rich people do bad shit in order to get either them or their immediate families even further ahead in life than they already are.

And in other news, water is wet, more on this story at 11. Stay tuned.


The thing is this does not even really get them ahead.
Graduating an from a big name school mostly only helps with your first job, and then only to a certain degree (someone looking for an engineer is still picking the engineer from a normal state school over a women’s studies major from Yale).

It is all prestige. All about looking good.
Like plating your car in gold. It does not make your car faster, you are just engaging in superficial posturing.
Last edited by Novus America on Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:47 am

New haven america wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:I want to ask a question. What is the parents motivation in this? There are legal fully tax deductible ways to get your kid into just about any school in America. You give yale 6.5 million dollars they name a building after you and treat your kid as a legacy and at the 35% bracket 2.5 mill can potentially come off your tax return. Why in gods green earth would you pay a bribe?

A. Because the system they used is actually cheaper and has a better guarantee of entry than straight donations.
B. Because a lot of parents want what's best for their children, and well off parents actually have the means to get their kids the best of the best regardless of their kids actual talent or skills or work ethic, thus insuring that their kids are most likely going to be better off than their parents (While also having an easier time keeping money within the family).


But this is not best for their children.
It has nothing to do with that. Getting your kid into a big name school they are not suited for, likely to get a useless degree, really does little to help the kid, and might actually hurt them, as in this case when it is found out they did not deserve it.

It is not about the kid, it is about being able to brag to their friends that their kid went to a school with a fancier name. It is all superficial narcissism.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Novus America
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:53 am

Bun Queen wrote:What's the point of doing that though? Colleges/Universitys are easy to get into. (Well here it is, but I'm not sure about American Universitys.)


It is easy to get into most colleges in the US.
If you simply want to go to a decent college it is not hard at all.

But there are some schools that are very difficult, so if you want a fancy school name to brag about over simply getting a proper education, bribes come in.

Is it superficial and unnecessary? Absolutely.
But so are buying outrageously overpriced clothes just for the label.
Or buying a yacht to large for most docks just so yours is bigger. Etc.

You do not need to go to those few fancy name schools to get a good education or be successful.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Shofercia
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Shofercia » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:18 am

Ethel mermania wrote:I want to ask a question. What is the parents motivation in this? There are legal fully tax deductible ways to get your kid into just about any school in America. You give yale 6.5 million dollars they name a building after you and treat your kid as a legacy and at the 35% bracket 2.5 mill can potentially come off your tax return. Why in gods green earth would you pay a bribe?


Because you have $500k, instead of $6.5 mil.


Aclion wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:I want to ask a question. What is the parents motivation in this? There are legal fully tax deductible ways to get your kid into just about any school in America. You give yale 6.5 million dollars they name a building after you and treat your kid as a legacy and at the 35% bracket 2.5 mill can potentially come off your tax return. Why in gods green earth would you pay a bribe?

This way is a lot cheaper. Also schools still do have minimum requirements, even for legacy.

Shofercia wrote:I think that Professor Alan Dershowitz nailed it when he said that colleges are not giving out grades anymore, and those who are mostly give out As and Bs, allowing the students to just get by. If colleges stopped pampering the students, then the ones who were admitted, but weren't supposed to be there, would've failed out.

We're seeing that with affirmative action. The black attrition rate is abysmal. I'd be very interested to see how these students were comparing next to those who got in legitimatly.


School requirements for legacies are a joke, and yeah, you're right the black attrition rate is abysmal, so some schools simply don't give out grades. But when these kids go into interviews with actual companies, all of the identity politics crap they learned in college ain't worth a penny, and they cannot get a normal job. Then some of them whine about race discrimination... it's quite pathetic.


Novus America wrote:
New haven america wrote:This just in, rich people do bad shit in order to get either them or their immediate families even further ahead in life than they already are.

And in other news, water is wet, more on this story at 11. Stay tuned.


The thing is this does not even really get them ahead.
Graduating an from a big name school mostly only helps with your first job, and then only to a certain degree (someone looking for an engineer is still picking the engineer from a normal state school over a women’s studies major from Yale).

It is all prestige. All about looking good.
Like playing your car in gold. It does not make your car faster, you are just engaging in superficial posturing.


Not true at all. Having a big name school helps you with all of your jobs, not just the first one, unless you really fuck it up on your first job, which most people don't do, for the simple reason that jobs have these things called interviews, and most jobs aren't going to hire someone who sucks at interviewing, just because they graduated from Yale. Unless you have a specialization where demand far exceeds supply, the market's quite competitive.
Ukraine - stop bombing innocent people! Pricks who burn other people alive should be punished.
Feel the Bern! Two actual females that can beat Trump: Gabbard & Klobuchar
Come, learn about Russian Culture! Bring Vodka and Ushanka. Interested in Slavic Culture? Fill this out.
If we tell the radical Republicans that there's proof that Global Warming doesn't exist in Death Valley, and the radical Democrats that there's proof of Russian Collusion there, would we have a better America?

(North) Kosovo is (a de facto part of) Serbia and Crimea is (a de facto part of) Russia! DonBass is De Facto Independent! Stand with NovoRossiya!
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Tareldar
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Postby Tareldar » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:19 am

Ethel mermania wrote:Weird, if you are going to spend 6.5 million to get your kid it, just do it the old fashioned way, donate to the football team.

Or spend that much on tutors to help them qualify legitimately?

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Andsed
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Postby Andsed » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:23 am

Ethel mermania wrote:I want to ask a question. What is the parents motivation in this? There are legal fully tax deductible ways to get your kid into just about any school in America. You give yale 6.5 million dollars they name a building after you and treat your kid as a legacy and at the 35% bracket 2.5 mill can potentially come off your tax return. Why in gods green earth would you pay a bribe?

Stupid people do stupid stuff. In other news fire is hot, magic does not exist, and the catholic church is catholic.
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Saiwania
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Postby Saiwania » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:44 am

These were parents that were willing to break the rules to try to get their children the best advantages. The only crime so far as I can tell, are the people who would've gotten admitted into Yale or whatever, but didn't because those people were chosen instead.

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Andsed
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Postby Andsed » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:55 am

Saiwania wrote:These were parents that were willing to break the rules to try to get their children the best advantages. The only crime so far as I can tell, are the people who would've gotten admitted into Yale or whatever, but didn't because those people were chosen instead.

Hold on are you implying the people in these plot did not commit any crimes or have I misread your post?
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NationStates going from serious debates about homosexuality to jokes about Jesus a marijuana dealer in the span of one to two posts since November 13 2002.
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Page
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Postby Page » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:29 am

I'd file this under open secret.
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Page
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Postby Page » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:30 am

Tareldar wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:Weird, if you are going to spend 6.5 million to get your kid it, just do it the old fashioned way, donate to the football team.

Or spend that much on tutors to help them qualify legitimately?


The kid with a perfect GPA is still going to lose to the kid whose daddy donated a million dollars most of the time.
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Tareldar
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Postby Tareldar » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:36 am

Page wrote:
Tareldar wrote:Or spend that much on tutors to help them qualify legitimately?


The kid with a perfect GPA is still going to lose to the kid whose daddy donated a million dollars most of the time.


How do we fix this?

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Postby Luziyca » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:39 am

Tareldar wrote:
Page wrote:
The kid with a perfect GPA is still going to lose to the kid whose daddy donated a million dollars most of the time.


How do we fix this?

Have access to university be solely based on academic ability, not how much you are willing to pay to attend.
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Tareldar
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Postby Tareldar » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:45 am

Luziyca wrote:
Tareldar wrote:
How do we fix this?

Have access to university be solely based on academic ability, not how much you are willing to pay to attend.


But if people with money can just pay off the people who make the decisions, how do we fix that?

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Shofercia
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Shofercia » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:49 am

Tareldar wrote:
Page wrote:
The kid with a perfect GPA is still going to lose to the kid whose daddy donated a million dollars most of the time.


How do we fix this?


Lower professor wages and increase their work hours, fire unnecessary administrators, and limit administrator pensions to the equivalent of what they'd earn in pensions in the private sector. Odds of that happening? Extremely low, you have better odds being struck by lightning. Want to guess who manages the budget? The administrators. Would you like to give yourself a raise? How about getting your cousin a job?

As long as the administrators control the budget, the universities will always be hungry for money, and that means that the kid whose daddy donates millions gets in, and the kid with the 4.0 GPA, doesn't. It's just that simple.
Ukraine - stop bombing innocent people! Pricks who burn other people alive should be punished.
Feel the Bern! Two actual females that can beat Trump: Gabbard & Klobuchar
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If we tell the radical Republicans that there's proof that Global Warming doesn't exist in Death Valley, and the radical Democrats that there's proof of Russian Collusion there, would we have a better America?

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Valrifell
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Postby Valrifell » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:03 am

Luziyca wrote:
Tareldar wrote:
How do we fix this?

Have access to university be solely based on academic ability, not how much you are willing to pay to attend.


There's a lot of administrative fluff at every level of education, though this is particularly bad at the collegiate level. Trimming from the top-down would make them less likely to need such donations (especially if they don't opt to also lower tuition) but they'll usually still need grants for major renovation and expansions. Besides, no sane university is going to turn down a new sports center that they don't have to pay for.

Perhaps the only solution is to abolish tuition!
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Saiwania
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Saiwania » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:11 am

Andsed wrote:Hold on are you implying the people in these plot did not commit any crimes or have I misread your post?


The world plays unfair so they in my view, were only playing unfair back. There were great benefits to be had if they weren't caught, but if they were caught; evidently the consequences for them aren't so bad. So they opted to do this. It is the university's fault if they get fooled.

I detest the whole concept that people should have to spends loads of money just to become qualified for more lucrative jobs (outside of a few industries where there doesn't exist much viable alternative, such as someone wanting to become a medical or legal professional). I'm wroth at all the fleecing of people universities are responsible for. It is not as if all the money these schools are getting is even being put to good use. It is going to luxury bullshit or lining the pockets of administrators, not teachers, not for the benefit of aspiring students.
Last edited by Saiwania on Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Andsed
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Andsed » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:18 am

Saiwania wrote:
Andsed wrote:Hold on are you implying the people in these plot did not commit any crimes or have I misread your post?


The world plays unfair so they in my view, were only playing unfair back. There were great benefits to be had if they weren't caught, but if they were caught; evidently the consequences for them aren't so bad. So they opted to do this. It is the university's fault if they get fooled.

I detest the whole concept that people should have to spends loads of money just to become qualified for more lucrative jobs (outside of a few industries where there doesn't exist much viable alternative, such as someone wanting to become a medical or legal professional). I'm wroth at all the fleecing of people universities are responsible for. It is not as if all the money these schools are getting is even being put to good use. It is going to luxury bullshit or lining the pockets of administrators, not teachers, not for the benefit of aspiring students.

So your going off the logic of two wrongs make a right? It is in no way okay to bribe people so that your kid can get into college in the place of actually deserving students and it is a crime. College being to expensive does not justify this period.
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Ethel mermania
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Founded: Aug 20, 2010
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Postby Ethel mermania » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:19 am

Luziyca wrote:
Tareldar wrote:
How do we fix this?

Have access to university be solely based on academic ability, not how much you are willing to pay to attend.

Well a lot of these schools get plenty of qualified applicants who get rejected simply because there are too many kids applying for the available slots.

But yeah give a school a boatload of money the kid gets in.
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