NationStates

Posted: **Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:41 am**

Pro-Boxer Rebellion, or Pro-Eight Nation Alliance?

Posted: **Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:46 am**

Conserative Morality wrote:Pro-Boxer Rebellion, or Pro-Eight Nation Alliance?

I'm torn honestly.
The reaction to the British forcing Opium onto the Chinese people did justify a reaction, but I don't think that justifies the murder of Missionaries and Chinese Christians, however I do think that a harsh reaction against the Chinese government for appeasement to the British was justified.
That and the idea that their 'discipline' would make them bullet proof. (hint: it didn't)

Posted: **Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:51 am**

Conserative Morality wrote:Pro-Boxer Rebellion, or Pro-Eight Nation Alliance?

I'm bound to say the Boxers. The Resident Government was clearly acting against National Interest (even if, to be fair, the head of state was smart enough to take the out and stop the war before it got real bad), and while the Boxers would inevitably lose a conflict against the Eight Greatest Powers on Earth at the time, they were the ones in the right.
(Though that doesn't mean I'd support the atrocities done by the Boxers... then again, China has a history of atrocities so eh)

Genivaria wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:Pro-Boxer Rebellion, or Pro-Eight Nation Alliance?

I'm torn honestly.
The reaction to the British forcing Opium onto the Chinese people did justify a reaction, but I don't think that justifies the murder of Missionaries and Chinese Christians, however I do think that a harsh reaction against the Chinese government for appeasement to the British was justified.
That and the idea that their 'discipline' would make them bullet proof. (hint: it didn't)

I mean, if it was a reaction to the Opium Wars, it was kinda a few decades too late, wasn't it? At that point, it was more about the Concessions than anything else.

Posted: **Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:58 am**

North German Realm wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:Pro-Boxer Rebellion, or Pro-Eight Nation Alliance?

I'm bound to say the Boxers. The Resident Government was clearly acting against National Interest (even if, to be fair, the head of state was smart enough to take the out and stop the war before it got real bad), and while the Boxers would inevitably lose a conflict against the Eight Greatest Powers on Earth at the time, they were the ones in the right.
(Though that doesn't mean I'd support the atrocities done by the Boxers... then again, China has a history of atrocities so eh)

Genivaria wrote:I'm torn honestly.
The reaction to the British forcing Opium onto the Chinese people did justify a reaction, but I don't think that justifies the murder of Missionaries and Chinese Christians, however I do think that a harsh reaction against the Chinese government for appeasement to the British was justified.
That and the idea that their 'discipline' would make them bullet proof. (hint: it didn't)

I mean, if it was a reaction to the Opium Wars, it was kinda a few decades too late, wasn't it? At that point, it was more about the Concessions than anything else.

I'd argue that systemic social problems festering over decades can definitely still cause alot of resentment.

Posted: **Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:04 pm**

Conserative Morality wrote:Pro-Boxer Rebellion, or Pro-Eight Nation Alliance?

Posted: **Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:07 pm**

Conserative Morality wrote:Pro-Boxer Rebellion, or Pro-Eight Nation Alliance?

Those rebels will embrace civilization one way or another.

Posted: **Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:10 pm**

Northern Davincia wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:Pro-Boxer Rebellion, or Pro-Eight Nation Alliance?

Those rebels will embrace civilization one way or another.

The drums have long been muffled, the bugles cease to ring, but through the ages, you can hear them echoing...

Posted: **Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:12 pm**

Conserative Morality wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:Those rebels will embrace civilization one way or another.

The drums have long been muffled, the bugles cease to ring, but through the ages, you can hear them echoing...

I must have caught something in my eye, I must excuse myself.

Posted: **Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:51 pm**

Conserative Morality wrote:Pro-Boxer Rebellion, or Pro-Eight Nation Alliance?

Eight Nation Alliance. It was the last great act of a cohesive Western Civilization before it was destroyed in the fires of two world wars and Global Communism, while the people themselves eventually fell into a state of decadence and degeneracy.

Posted: **Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:58 pm**

Confederate States of German America wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:Pro-Boxer Rebellion, or Pro-Eight Nation Alliance?

Eight Nation Alliance. It was the last great act of a cohesive Western Civilization before it was destroyed in the fires of two world wars and Global Communism, while the people themselves eventually fell into a state of decadence and degeneracy.

The last great act of Western Civilization was suppressing a nationalist, reactionary traditionalist movement?

Posted: **Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:01 pm**

Oranjea wrote:
Confederate States of German America wrote:
Eight Nation Alliance. It was the last great act of a cohesive Western Civilization before it was destroyed in the fires of two world wars and Global Communism, while the people themselves eventually fell into a state of decadence and degeneracy.

The last great act of Western Civilization was suppressing a nationalist, reactionary traditionalist movement?

The last great act of Western Civilization was suppressing a movement that saw to destroy its presence and the presence of its religion in what has, for most of history, been a nation that has surpassed the West. The last great act was to show that, at our height, we had transcended them.

Posted: **Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:13 pm**

Conserative Morality wrote:Pro-Boxer Rebellion, or Pro-Eight Nation Alliance?

Mark Twain wrote:The Boxer is a patriot. He loves his country better than he does the countries of other people. I wish him success.

Posted: **Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:13 pm**

Confederate States of German America wrote:
Oranjea wrote:
The last great act of Western Civilization was suppressing a nationalist, reactionary traditionalist movement?

The last great act of Western Civilization was suppressing a movement that saw to destroy its presence and the presence of its religion in what has, for most of history, been a nation that has surpassed the West. The last great act was to show that, at our height, we had transcended them.

Who is "we"? Is Japan part of western civilization?

Do you not see how the intervention of the west in China was directly responsible for introducing the ideals of republicanism and communism which would later hand it over to the communists you so despise?

The Qing were content to remain an isolated, conservative nation. Given that you're a national syndicalist, I take it you're not too pro-international bourgeoisie. How do you square this belief with the fact that the entire reason China even became something to contend with was because some petty-bourgeois British merchants wanted to keep the Chinese population perpetual drug addicts?

Posted: **Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:22 pm**

Confederate States of German America wrote:
Oranjea wrote:
The last great act of Western Civilization was suppressing a nationalist, reactionary traditionalist movement?

The last great act of Western Civilization was suppressing a movement that saw to destroy its presence and the presence of its religion in what has, for most of history, been a nation that has surpassed the West. The last great act was to show that, at our height, we had transcended them.

What is this even supposed to mean?

Posted: **Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:23 pm**

Hanafuridake wrote:
Confederate States of German America wrote:
The last great act of Western Civilization was suppressing a movement that saw to destroy its presence and the presence of its religion in what has, for most of history, been a nation that has surpassed the West. The last great act was to show that, at our height, we had transcended them.

What is this even supposed to mean?

I guess that crushing China in the opium wars didn't count and only when you go on a looting and raping spree can you really say to have surpassed another nation. That'll show those savages1

Posted: **Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:25 pm**

Hanafuridake wrote:
Confederate States of German America wrote:
The last great act of Western Civilization was suppressing a movement that saw to destroy its presence and the presence of its religion in what has, for most of history, been a nation that has surpassed the West. The last great act was to show that, at our height, we had transcended them.

What is this even supposed to mean?

We had become more powerful than a nation that had historically always surpassed the West.

Posted: **Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:28 pm**

The Boxer atrocities were no-good, but their ultimate goal was just to force the Westerners out of China to protect their country. I don't agree with war, but it's hard to not empathize with the Boxers a lot more than the Eight Nation Alliance.

Posted: **Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:34 pm**

Yusseria wrote:
Hanafuridake wrote:
What is this even supposed to mean?

We had become more powerful than a nation that had historically always surpassed the West.

Again, who is "we" and what is "the west"? Is Japan the west? What about Russia?

Why are we pretending there is some sort of cosmic unity between the 8 Nation Alliance? China barely interacted with the west prior to the 19th century while the members of the 8 Nation Alliance were frequently at war.

Posted: **Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:35 pm**

Conserative Morality wrote:
Hanafuridake wrote:
What is this even supposed to mean?

I guess that crushing China in the opium wars didn't count and only when you go on a looting and raping spree can you really say to have surpassed another nation. That'll show those savages1

Why is it that fascists almost always embody the negative stereotypes they assign to other ethnicities.

Posted: **Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:36 pm**

Hanafuridake wrote:Why is it that fascists almost always embody the negative stereotypes they assign to other ethnicities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

Posted: **Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:37 pm**

Hanafuridake wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:I guess that crushing China in the opium wars didn't count and only when you go on a looting and raping spree can you really say to have surpassed another nation. That'll show those savages1

Why is it that fascists almost always embody the negative stereotypes they assign to other ethnicities.

"They'll get us if we don't get them first."

Posted: **Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:32 pm**

The Galactic Liberal Democracy wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:So Jeb Bush is still bitter he was denied the turn a President he felt he was entitled to? Maybe he would have had more success if he had paid less attention to donors and more attention to why he wanted to be president and communicating that. I like the Bushes, even admire them, but for the life of me I listened to Jeb and could not figure out why he wanted to be president or what he wanted to do as president. Would never vote for someone like that.

Honestly, I would prefer comrade Jeb to Trump.

As much as a disagree with Trump on many things, he has successfully shifted the window on, and seriously damage the neoliberal “free trade” end of history BS.
Given the that neoliberal trade is the biggest threat to the western world, (it is what made Russia and China dangerous in the first place) this is a good thing.

Jeb probably still believes selling our country and manufacturing base to China will make China a friendly liberal democracy.

Posted: **Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:59 pm**

Novus America wrote:
The Galactic Liberal Democracy wrote:Honestly, I would prefer comrade Jeb to Trump.

As much as a disagree with Trump on many things, he has successfully shifted the window on, and seriously damage the neoliberal “free trade” end of history BS.
Given the that neoliberal trade is the biggest threat to the western world, (it is what made Russia and China dangerous in the first place) this is a good thing.

Jeb probably still believes selling our country and manufacturing base to China will make China a friendly liberal democracy.

Seeing many of the facets of the neoliberal world that's existed since the end of WW2 erode is immensely gratifying.

Posted: **Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:08 pm**

Northern Davincia wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:Pro-Boxer Rebellion, or Pro-Eight Nation Alliance?

Those rebels will embrace civilization one way or another.

I don't remember the Western barbarians being subdued and made to embrace the superior Confucian culture.

Posted: **Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:39 pm**

Novus America wrote:
The Galactic Liberal Democracy wrote:Honestly, I would prefer comrade Jeb to Trump.

As much as a disagree with Trump on many things, he has successfully shifted the window on, and seriously damage the neoliberal “free trade” end of history BS.
Given the that neoliberal trade is the biggest threat to the western world, (it is what made Russia and China dangerous in the first place) this is a good thing.

Jeb probably still believes selling our country and manufacturing base to China will make China a friendly liberal democracy.

Russia is historically part of the West, it has many of the same institutions and historically has functioned as a member of the Western world.

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