Right Wing Discussion Thread XV: A New Hoppe

[Conserative Morality]

Had Montgomery tried to take Berlin in 1944 without the Eastern Front 99% of the British Army in 1944 would've been Indians.

So you're saying the war would have been over a year early.

[Torrocca]

Had Montgomery tried to take Berlin in 1944 without the Eastern Front 99% of the British Army in 1944 would've been Indians.

The Germans would have unknowingly unleashed Bollywood much faster on the world.

Probably wouldn't've been the worst thing in the world to have the entirety of Europe converted into one giant Bollywood film studio tbqh.

[Novus America]

Maybe.
What would have happened is the Germans would take mainland Europe, the European war be a stalemate until 1945, and then Germany gets nukes into oblivion in 1946.

I mean, technically that would be really really unlikely. With Europe completely in German hands and without a war to deal with, they would probably have made their own nukes by the point American nukes became operational.

No, because they never came even close to building one.
The Germans never considered nuclear weapons to be a priority, and offing their Jewish scientists really put a crimp in their plans

The Germans were way behind, even with more resources it is highly unlikely they would catch up in time.

[Novus America]

Double post.

[Hanafuridake]

Speaking about India, as much as I respect Gandhi, he did become much too fanatical near the end of his life to a degree that is disturbing.

In a post-war interview in 1946, he said, "Hitler killed five million Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher's knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs... It would have aroused the world and the people of Germany... As it is they succumbed anyway in their millions."[263] Gandhi believed this act of "collective suicide", in response to the Holocaust, "would have been heroism".[264]

[United Muscovite Nations]

The French and British lost over 2 million soldiers if you count POW's. Those were still irrecoverable losses.

If we're discussing irrecoverable losses, we're back to 9 mil v. 8 mil, and at a much better ratio for the Western Allies.

Where are you getting that 3 million figure?

600k on the Western Front, 400k in Italy, 140k in air battles, 50k in North Africa, 35k in France, 25k in East Africa, 36k at sea in battles with the Western Allies including Uboat destruction, and 1.6 mil in the Pacific (yes, excluding Chinese engagements). My math ain't so great and I was running off of estimations (I thought casualties in East Africa were higher tbh), but that's about 3 mil.

I thought we were just talking about German defeat.

[North German Realm]

I mean, technically that would be really really unlikely. With Europe completely in German hands and without a war to deal with, they would probably have made their own nukes by the point American nukes became operational.

No, because they never came even close to building one.
The Germans never considered nuclear weapons to be a priority, and offing their Jewish scientists really put a crimp in their plans

The Germans were way behind, even with more resources it is highly unlikely they would catch up in time.

Because they had to deal with what was -at the point making a nuke became a reality- an undefeatable enemy. Without lend-lease and other stuff, the Germans might have pushed the Soviets back enough to create a stalemate and get to working on the nuke. Then again, it is true that they were ridiculously behind in the research.

[Conserative Morality]

If we're discussing irrecoverable losses, we're back to 9 mil v. 8 mil, and at a much better ratio for the Western Allies.

600k on the Western Front, 400k in Italy, 140k in air battles, 50k in North Africa, 35k in France, 25k in East Africa, 36k at sea in battles with the Western Allies including Uboat destruction, and 1.6 mil in the Pacific (yes, excluding Chinese engagements). My math ain't so great and I was running off of estimations (I thought casualties in East Africa were higher tbh), but that's about 3 mil.

I thought we were just talking about German defeat.

I specified Axis for a reason. Western Allies had to contend with Italians and Japanese, Sovs had to deal with traitors, Romanians, and Hungarians, if you'll remember.

[Conserative Morality]

No, because they never came even close to building one.
The Germans never considered nuclear weapons to be a priority, and offing their Jewish scientists really put a crimp in their plans

The Germans were way behind, even with more resources it is highly unlikely they would catch up in time.

Because they had to deal with what was -at the point making a nuke became a reality- an undefeatable enemy. Without lend-lease and other stuff, the Germans might have pushed the Soviets back enough to create a stalemate and get to working on the nuke. Then again, it is true that they were ridiculously behind in the research.

Don't forget we literally blew up their main research facility.

[Novus America]

No, because they never came even close to building one.
The Germans never considered nuclear weapons to be a priority, and offing their Jewish scientists really put a crimp in their plans

The Germans were way behind, even with more resources it is highly unlikely they would catch up in time.

Because they had to deal with what was -at the point making a nuke became a reality- an undefeatable enemy. Without lend-lease and other stuff, the Germans might have pushed the Soviets back enough to create a stalemate and get to working on the nuke. Then again, it is true that they were ridiculously behind in the research.

Well sure. They might have gotten further along than the did IRL.

But even with stolen US plans, German scientists and massive investment far greater than anything Germany ever considered the Soviets did not build one until 1949.

The Germans getting further along than they did, definitely possible. Getting one before the 1946? Almost impossible.
Maybe by 48 at the earliest but that would be way too late.

Also the British and US would still be continually bombing Germany with conventional weapons the whole time. The US could build massive city sized research and development sites free from air attack.

Had Oak ridge, Hanford and the like been subject to heavy air attack it would not have gone nearly as well.

[Asherahan]

Because they had to deal with what was -at the point making a nuke became a reality- an undefeatable enemy. Without lend-lease and other stuff, the Germans might have pushed the Soviets back enough to create a stalemate and get to working on the nuke. Then again, it is true that they were ridiculously behind in the research.

Don't forget we literally blew up their main research facility.

I would not call the Norwegian Heavy Water Production Facility a research center. Instrumental in making a material for nukes? Yes most certainly.

[Nea Byzantia]

Don't forget we literally blew up their main research facility.

I would not call the Norwegian Heavy Water Production Facility a research center. Instrumental in making a material for nukes? Yes most certainly.

Why? Is making material for nuke not "research" from a certain point of view?

[Asherahan]

I would not call the Norwegian Heavy Water Production Facility a research center. Instrumental in making a material for nukes? Yes most certainly.

Why? Is making material for nuke not "research" from a certain point of view?

I suppose but we are really stretching the term research for that to apply.

The Manhattan Project was a Research Project with a Research Center. There never was an equal Nazi German Project.

[Nea Byzantia]

Why? Is making material for nuke not "research" from a certain point of view?

I suppose but we are really stretching the term research for that to apply.

The Manhattan Project was a Research Project with a Research Center. There never was an equal Nazi German Project.

Doesn't mean they weren't researching, though? Just means it wasn't centralized into a single Project.

[Asherahan]

I suppose but we are really stretching the term research for that to apply.

The Manhattan Project was a Research Project with a Research Center. There never was an equal Nazi German Project.

Doesn't mean they weren't researching, though? Just means it wasn't centralized into a single Project.

When it concerns nukes it is.

[Nea Byzantia]

Doesn't mean they weren't researching, though? Just means it wasn't centralized into a single Project.

When it concerns nukes it is.

Why does that matter though? They're still researching nukes. Maybe in a more inefficient manner; but they're still researching. No?

[Asherahan]

When it concerns nukes it is.

Why does that matter though? They're still researching nukes. Maybe in a more inefficient manner; but they're still researching. No?

But how are the merge all their projects together is my next question?

Are you telling me someone expected the General Stuff of the Heer to wake one morning and say "Muh goodness we need a fuck off big bomb win the Allies!"

[Nea Byzantia]

Why does that matter though? They're still researching nukes. Maybe in a more inefficient manner; but they're still researching. No?

But how are the merge all their projects together is my next question?

Are you telling me someone expected the General Stuff of the Heer to wake one morning and say "Muh goodness we need a fuck off big bomb win the Allies!"

Their research was half-assed; but its still research.

[North German Realm]

Why does that matter though? They're still researching nukes. Maybe in a more inefficient manner; but they're still researching. No?

But how are the merge all their projects together is my next question?

Are you telling me someone expected the General Stuff of the Heer to wake one morning and say "Muh goodness we need a fuck off big bomb win the Allies!"

Given the number of "Wonder Weapons" the Nazis thought of, it's pretty clear by 1941 that they already had woken up to that realization at some point earlier lol.

[Nea Byzantia]

But how are the merge all their projects together is my next question?

Are you telling me someone expected the General Stuff of the Heer to wake one morning and say "Muh goodness we need a fuck off big bomb win the Allies!"

Given the number of "Wonder Weapons" the Nazis thought of, it's pretty clear by 1941 that they already had woken up to that realization at some point earlier lol.

Not that it did them much good (Thank God)...

[Novus America]

Don't forget we literally blew up their main research facility.

I would not call the Norwegian Heavy Water Production Facility a research center. Instrumental in making a material for nukes? Yes most certainly.

Well we only damaged that Norwegian heavy water facility.
It was the Oranienburg uranium plant we leveled with B-17s.

But a critical portion of the Manhattan Project was an intelligence and denial function.
In addition to building our own bomb we also had a portion of the project dedicated to discovering and delaying German and Japanese efforts as well.

We had spies throughout German occupied and neutral countries gathering information on the German program, and then we would launch attacks against it with commandos or strategic bombers.

So even if Germany had invested more in the program and better consolidated it to prevent politicization and infighting, we could and would target any major facility they built.

Not only were they way behind in research and resources, we could hit their facilities but they never had the ability to really hit ours.

Actually interesting bit of trivia, a Japanese fire ballon by pure blind luck (they were insanely inaccurate) knocked out power at the Hanford site, causing us to shut down the reactors there.
It was only for a very short time, but it shows how vulnerable nuclear sites were to bombing.
We could bomb the Germans but they could not bomb us.

So we were going to win the race.
Also we had Jews.
Some from German working on it.
The whole “kill the Jews” shit really threw a big wrench in their nuclear plans.
Exiling, killing or reducing to forced manual labor many of your best nuclear scientists is not a good way to do a nuclear program.

[Valrifell]

Don't forget we literally blew up their main research facility.

I would not call the Norwegian Heavy Water Production Facility a research center. Instrumental in making a material for nukes? Yes most certainly.

Heavy water isn't even instrumental for making nukes, which is the funny part, the Germans were just convinced it was.

[Northern Davincia]

Don't Christians believe Christ will rise again to fufill the rest of the requirements to be Messiah?

Yep.

[Nova Cyberia]

You can't deny the importance of the American lend-lease to them not, you know, losing the Eastern Front...

Yes, but that's still the USSR losing 28 million soldiers and civilians so the United States and United Kingdom didn't have to. Might as well be a little appreciative.

"Appreciative"

To an extent. The Soviets won. The rest of Eastern Europe lost. They traded one dictatorship for another. The Poles, Czechs, Hungarians, etc. all got screwed by the Soviets. Not to mention the tens of thousands of Germans expelled from areas that had been historically German for centuries like Königsberg, Danzig, the border areas of Bohemia and other places. And the free world ended up having to deal with the Iron Curtain for over half a century.

So, uh, "be appreciative"? Sure. I'm appreciative they gave the Germans as good a fight as they did.

The Soviets can still get fucked, though. We should have pushed them completely out of Eastern Europe and returned them to their pre-WW2 borders.

[Totally Not OEP]

>TFW a simple post recognizing today as VE Day has spiraled out of control into a multi-post cancer debating who did the most to destroy the Axis powers and the merits of whether or not it would've been better to have not fought the Nazis & Co. altogether

Never change, NSG. Never change.

To be fair, you've literally started fights with me for saying Appalachians fought hard in the Civil War and for calling you Torrocca. Pointless arguments are literally a staple of NSG.