Right Wing Discussion Thread XV: A New Hoppe

[Communist Zombie Horde]

So all the ideas a fascist would disagree with don’t count but the fact that I’m an authoritarian like many other right wingers are does?

Nationalistic authoritarianism is pretty much halfway to what we'd consider fascism, particularly when it's anti-labor.

Fascism has supported workers rights. For instance, the national socialist party first campaigned for worker rights and Mussolini was a very open socialist. Both appealed to the poor and promised he’lp by a big government. Hitler often talked about the worker being important and soldiers are often as important as workers to authoritarian socialists. This is trash propaganda. It’s not Ike most Republicans are fascist.

[Valrifell]

Nationalistic authoritarianism is pretty much halfway to what we'd consider fascism, particularly when it's anti-labor.

Fascism has supported workers rights. For instance, the national socialist party first campaigned for worker rights and Mussolini was a very open socialist. Both appealed to the poor and promised he’lp by a big government. Hitler often talked about the worker being important and soldiers are often as important as workers to authoritarian socialists. This is trash propaganda. It’s not Ike most Republicans are fascist.

Mussolini stopped being a Socialist to become a Fascist, after that he and Hitler both hated the Left wing with a fiery passion. But it turns out people kinda really like Leftist rhetoric about liberation and helping people, which is why it's so commonly appropriated by the Right wing. From what I can recall, the Nazi war machine was fueled through heavy cooperation with the business class and forced labor. Though I see the meaningful distinction in that the Nazis actually liked the German working class whereas you just hate the poor.

[Communist Zombie Horde]

Fascism has supported workers rights. For instance, the national socialist party first campaigned for worker rights and Mussolini was a very open socialist. Both appealed to the poor and promised he’lp by a big government. Hitler often talked about the worker being important and soldiers are often as important as workers to authoritarian socialists. This is trash propaganda. It’s not Ike most Republicans are fascist.

Mussolini stopped being a Socialist to become a Fascist, after that he and Hitler both hated the Left wing with a fiery passion. But it turns out people kinda really like Leftist rhetoric about liberation and helping people, which is why it's so commonly appropriated by the Right wing. From what I can recall, the Nazi war machine was fueled through heavy cooperation with the business class and forced labor. Though I see the meaningful distinction in that the Nazis actually liked the German working class whereas you just hate the poor.

Socialism can be right wing.

[Valrifell]

Mussolini stopped being a Socialist to become a Fascist, after that he and Hitler both hated the Left wing with a fiery passion. But it turns out people kinda really like Leftist rhetoric about liberation and helping people, which is why it's so commonly appropriated by the Right wing. From what I can recall, the Nazi war machine was fueled through heavy cooperation with the business class and forced labor. Though I see the meaningful distinction in that the Nazis actually liked the German working class whereas you just hate the poor.

Socialism can be right wing.

1. Literally no. By definition.
2. That's not what the Nazis had, the workers didn't control the means of production to any stretch, the state indirectly controlled them through the national state-owned union.
3. Mussolini and Hitler were avowed anti-Socialists and anti-Communists
4. Fascism isn't really definable on a left-right spectrum, it shares more characteristics with third-positionists movements and, imo, is the OG third-position movement.

[Communist Zombie Horde]

Socialism can be right wing.

1. Literally no. By definition.
2. That's not what the Nazis had, the workers didn't control the means of production to any stretch, the state indirectly controlled them through the national state-owned union.
3. Mussolini and Hitler were avowed anti-Socialists and anti-Communists
4. Fascism isn't really definable on a left-right spectrum, it shares more characteristics with third-positionists movements and, imo, is the OG third-position movement.

So am I still literally a racist nazi even though I’m clearly not third positionist.

[Valrifell]

1. Literally no. By definition.
2. That's not what the Nazis had, the workers didn't control the means of production to any stretch, the state indirectly controlled them through the national state-owned union.
3. Mussolini and Hitler were avowed anti-Socialists and anti-Communists
4. Fascism isn't really definable on a left-right spectrum, it shares more characteristics with third-positionists movements and, imo, is the OG third-position movement.

So am I still literally a racist nazi even though I’m clearly not third positionist.

How are you on NSG and this bad about being subtle with putting words in my mouth? I know it's a delicate game, but it's quick to pick up.

[Communist Zombie Horde]

So am I still literally a racist nazi even though I’m clearly not third positionist.

How are you on NSG and this bad about being subtle with putting words in my mouth? I know it's a delicate game, but it's quick to pick up.

I accidentally put nazi instead of fascist if thats what you mean.

[Valrifell]

How are you on NSG and this bad about being subtle with putting words in my mouth? I know it's a delicate game, but it's quick to pick up.

I accidentally put nazi instead of fascist if thats what you mean.

I also never called you a racist, that was all you.

Neoreactionaries and fascists are a lot of common ground, mostly ultranationalistic anti-democracy. You make natural allies.

[Bear Stearns]

So all the ideas a fascist would disagree with don’t count but the fact that I’m an authoritarian like many other right wingers are does?

Nationalistic authoritarianism is pretty much halfway to what we'd consider fascism, particularly when it's anti-labor.

Authoritarian nationalism can range from Nazism, to how China governs, to a Latin American tinpot dictator, to religious nationalism, and to the Soviet apologism of the Russian nationalism variety. It's not really fascism.

[Bear Stearns]

I accidentally put nazi instead of fascist if thats what you mean.

I also never called you a racist, that was all you.

Neoreactionaries and fascists are a lot of common ground, mostly ultranationalistic anti-democracy. You make natural allies.

Depends. When fascists rose to power in Italy and Germany, they were opposed by the reactionary, establishment classes.

[Conserative Morality]

I also never called you a racist, that was all you.

Neoreactionaries and fascists are a lot of common ground, mostly ultranationalistic anti-democracy. You make natural allies.

Depends. When fascists rose to power in Italy and Germany, they were opposed enabled by the reactionary, establishment classes.

FTFY

[Major-Tom]

1. Literally no. By definition.
2. That's not what the Nazis had, the workers didn't control the means of production to any stretch, the state indirectly controlled them through the national state-owned union.
3. Mussolini and Hitler were avowed anti-Socialists and anti-Communists
4. Fascism isn't really definable on a left-right spectrum, it shares more characteristics with third-positionists movements and, imo, is the OG third-position movement.

So am I still literally a racist nazi even though I’m clearly not third positionist.

Your words, not his.

[Valrifell]

I also never called you a racist, that was all you.

Neoreactionaries and fascists are a lot of common ground, mostly ultranationalistic anti-democracy. You make natural allies.

Depends. When fascists rose to power in Italy and Germany, they were opposed by the reactionary, establishment classes.

Hindenburg's Germany and the interwar Kingdom of Italy could, at best, be characterized as conservative. The Nazis and Italian Fascists were moreso the reactionaries here.

[Bear Stearns]

Depends. When fascists rose to power in Italy and Germany, they were opposed enabled by the reactionary, establishment classes.

FTFY

Initially, the Junkers and officer classes of the German military supported Hitler as a bulwark against the commies, but once he took power, they realized they done fucked up.

[Bear Stearns]

Depends. When fascists rose to power in Italy and Germany, they were opposed by the reactionary, establishment classes.

Hindenburg's Germany and the interwar Kingdom of Italy could, at best, be characterized as conservative. The Nazis and Italian Fascists were moreso the reactionaries here.

I was talking mainly about the old monarchists and aristocrats. They were reactionary, but not fascist.

[Conserative Morality]

Initially, the Junkers and officer classes of the German military supported Hitler as a bulwark against the commies, but once he took power, they realized they done fucked up.

Not just the Junkers and the officer classes. All the major parties except the KPD and SPD.

[Bear Stearns]

Initially, the Junkers and officer classes of the German military supported Hitler as a bulwark against the commies, but once he took power, they realized they done fucked up.

Not just the Junkers and the officer classes. All the major parties except the KPD and SPD.

It's like if a fascist took over the US government, what would someone like Jeff Bezos do about it.

[Valrifell]

Not just the Junkers and the officer classes. All the major parties except the KPD and SPD.

It's like if a fascist took over the US government, what would someone like Jeff Bezos do about it.

Benefit immensely

[Greater Istanistan]

I was talking mainly about the old monarchists and aristocrats. They were reactionary, but not fascist.

The Fascists of Italy notably got a lot of money from Southern Italian landlords - the traditional ruling elite - to keep peasants in line. Mussolini, despite earlier being a republican, made a pretty strong alliance with the King and the monarchist bloc by protecting them from the left. It's also worth noting that Badoglio's coup against Mussolini in 43, partially instigated by the King, was intended to preserve the Fascist system with the monarch at its centre. There's a reason the Italian monarchy and official aristocracy didn't survive the postwar period. Should also be noted that postwar Italian old-school reactionary formations - for example, the P2 Masonic lodge, far-right elements of the security services, and Count Ciano - had extremely strong ties with organized fascist groups.

Now it is worth noting that there's a difference between that and the Catholic conservatives, who generally had a decent showing during the Italian fascist and postwar periods, but no I don't think that's quite a good take.

As for Germany, Hindenburg's deliberate enabling of Hitler as a bludgeon against the Social Democrats and Communists and the predominance of royal blood in the Nazi upper-middle apparatus speak for themselves. Again, conservatives - mostly of the Catholic stripe - made a good account of themselves, but I'd separate that from aristocratic reactionaries.

In general, fascism and traditional reactionaries adapted pretty well to each other and made good bedfellows.

Initially, the Junkers and officer classes of the German military supported Hitler as a bulwark against the commies, but once he took power, they realized they done fucked up.

The Junkers were actually extremely strong supporters of Nazism as a way to defeat the heavily Social-Democratic electorate of Prussia and enthusiastically invested in it right until the end. Prussian Junkers enthusiastically adopted the Party's apparatus, policies, and even aesthetics. As for the officer caste, they stayed loyal from the very beginning until the very end, and even the 1944 putsch was mostly organized by mid-level officers like Von Stauffenberg. It had zero input from the top-level Prussian officers, who toed the line until the last minute, or even the majority of the Prussian mid-level officers, who didn't go for it even when the coup plotters seemed like they were briefly in control of the situation.

[Conserative Morality]

It's like if a fascist took over the US government, what would someone like Jeff Bezos do about it.

I don't think Jeff Bezos is part of a deeply and legally embedded military aristocracy within the national army, though I could, of course, be wrong. In any case, my point is that 'the establishment' was not against Hitler - 'the establishment' insofar as there was anything that could be regarded as an establishment, was firmly with him - the Centre Party, the DNVP, et co - all supported his bid because they thought they would get something out of it.

[Nova Cyberia]

It's like if a fascist took over the US government, what would someone like Jeff Bezos do about it.

I don't think Jeff Bezos is part of a deeply and legally embedded military aristocracy within the national army, though I could, of course, be wrong. In any case, my point is that 'the establishment' was not against Hitler - 'the establishment' insofar as there was anything that could be regarded as an establishment, was firmly with him - the Centre Party, the DNVP, et co - all supported his bid because they thought they would get something out of it.

He is.

[Greater Istanistan]

He is.

Jeff Bezos would have "severe private doubts", issue "statements of concern", maybe do one or two things to help the worst-persecuted, and then ultimately be surprised and hurt to have his shit nationalized after the end of the regime for selling software that remotely dronebombs people based on skull shape.

[Valrifell]

I don't think Jeff Bezos is part of a deeply and legally embedded military aristocracy within the national army, though I could, of course, be wrong. In any case, my point is that 'the establishment' was not against Hitler - 'the establishment' insofar as there was anything that could be regarded as an establishment, was firmly with him - the Centre Party, the DNVP, et co - all supported his bid because they thought they would get something out of it.

He is.

And to think it all started with a fucking online book store.

[Conserative Morality]

I don't think Jeff Bezos is part of a deeply and legally embedded military aristocracy within the national army, though I could, of course, be wrong. In any case, my point is that 'the establishment' was not against Hitler - 'the establishment' insofar as there was anything that could be regarded as an establishment, was firmly with him - the Centre Party, the DNVP, et co - all supported his bid because they thought they would get something out of it.

He is.

"His company has military contracts" = "is part of a deeply and legally embedded military aristocracy"

... okay.

[Greater Istanistan]

And to think it all started with a fucking online book store.

What, you're surprised? Selling books online was a sin from day one.