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Right Wing Discussion Thread XV: A New Hoppe

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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To what ethical philosophy do you subscribe?

Ethical Egoism
12
11%
Act Utilitarianism
7
6%
Rule Utilitarianism
7
6%
Kantian Ethics
6
5%
Virtue Ethics
19
17%
Nihilism/YOLO
18
16%
Radical Subjectivism
2
2%
Cultural Relativism
3
3%
Divine Command Theory
18
16%
Natural Law Theory
20
18%
 
Total votes : 112

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Minzerland II
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Postby Minzerland II » Mon May 13, 2019 11:02 pm

Compared with Vatican I? Just a continuation my man, not rupture bro
Previous Profile: Minzerland
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St Anselm of Canterbury wrote:[…]who ever heard of anything having two mothers or two fathers? (Monologion, pg. 63)

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The Xenopolis Confederation
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Posts: 7788
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Mon May 13, 2019 11:03 pm

Benuty wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:No one who's correct or right believes this.

I hate to be that person, but let's take this rabbit hole even further. You can be a person who is right or correct, and still, be wrong on some things. For example, the man (Norman Borlaug) who pretty much prevented the Malthusian apocalypse from manifesting in the 1970s, and 1980s thought global warming was utter nonsense.

You know what I mean
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Psychedelic Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0.5
Social: -8
I'm an 18 year old Australian who tries to think about things but fails, as we all do. I'll regret this in 2 years tops.

I think I have gender dysphoria so I'd prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

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Hanafuridake
Senator
 
Posts: 3770
Founded: Sep 09, 2018
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Hanafuridake » Mon May 13, 2019 11:03 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:First the conversation is conservatives, then its liberal reformations, now it's conservatives again. I think there's some form of miscommunication here. My point stands, however, as very few conservative Catholics even wish to adhere to Vatican I (although some are still none-too-pleased with Vatican II); conservative Islam in the modern day is deeply inspired by Ottoman ideology or 19th century revivalism from a nationalist and modern point of view; etc, etc.
You didn't just claim that they were compatible with liberalism, you claimed they were liberal.



Which I have a hard time believing because it sounds like the claim that Jesus was a Communist.

I misspoke then. I didn't mean to project liberal values onto schools that far predate it, only that there was no need to liberalize something that's already compatible with liberalism.


Then yes, I don't disagree with you, various Hindu schools of thought are compatible with liberalism. Gandhi is the most obvious example of someone who merged his Hindu beliefs with religious pluralism and secularism.
Time traveling Heian princess trapped in the 21st century
Buddhist Nationalist, Pan-Asianist, Neo-Confucian, Economic Collectivist

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Minzerland II
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Founded: Aug 27, 2016
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Postby Minzerland II » Mon May 13, 2019 11:03 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Minzerland II wrote:duh

we all waste our time talking about this shit and especially progressive, because they know the least

0 > 0 > 0

Hmm...

it a mystery I realise incomprehensible but true
Last edited by Minzerland II on Mon May 13, 2019 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Previous Profile: Minzerland
Donkey Advocate & Herald of Donkeydom
St Anselm of Canterbury wrote:[…]who ever heard of anything having two mothers or two fathers? (Monologion, pg. 63)

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Napkizemlja
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Founded: Apr 13, 2019
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Napkizemlja » Mon May 13, 2019 11:04 pm

Divorcing oneself from ideology, one could argue that the Renaissance, and to a lesser extent the Enlightenment, were reactionary given how often they sought to emulate Classical Antiquity and "bring back" aspects of it.
Dodging LEGO pieces on the floor like a boss. The new unofficial RWDT anthem. Tory and communitarian. Asperger's. Rollin' 3-4-8 Orthoboo Gang. A repentant asshole.

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Kowani
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Posts: 16782
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Mon May 13, 2019 11:13 pm

Napkizemlja wrote:Divorcing oneself from ideology, one could argue that the Renaissance, and to a lesser extent the Enlightenment, were reactionary given how often they sought to emulate Classical Antiquity and "bring back" aspects of it.

One could, but one would be wrong.
Narcissistic (Hedonistic) Nihilist. Yes, I am edgy. I know.
Atheist and still proud of it. Spanish Expat.
Post-Capitalist, Post-Nationalist.
Rights are functionally just privileges society has deemed important.
Prydania wrote:
As a Canadian? I find Americans and their deep, deep distrust of the government to be fundamentally, critically, laughably flawed. I find some aspects of your country completely absurd. The distrust of anything remotely resembling authority is one. The gun problem that stems from that is another.

Seangoli wrote:You are spouting nonsensical drivel with no coherent thought, little logic, and at the end of it all just angry opining at the clouds based on a truly astonishly low level of knowledge or understanding of the subject matter.

0% Capitalism

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The Xenopolis Confederation
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7788
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Mon May 13, 2019 11:14 pm

Kowani wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:No one who's correct or right believes this.

Oh, is morality objective again?

Let's not do this now.
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Psychedelic Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0.5
Social: -8
I'm an 18 year old Australian who tries to think about things but fails, as we all do. I'll regret this in 2 years tops.

I think I have gender dysphoria so I'd prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

User avatar
The Xenopolis Confederation
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7788
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Mon May 13, 2019 11:16 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:No one who's correct or right believes this.

Then you must face the simple fact that the vast majority of people are not correct or right on every issue, and as such, the idea that moderation on its own merits will not result in horrendous compromises is simply an untenable position.

I agree, being moderate on everything is a bad idea. Compromise when you can. When you can't, don't.
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Psychedelic Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0.5
Social: -8
I'm an 18 year old Australian who tries to think about things but fails, as we all do. I'll regret this in 2 years tops.

I think I have gender dysphoria so I'd prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

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Napkizemlja
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1148
Founded: Apr 13, 2019
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Napkizemlja » Mon May 13, 2019 11:17 pm

Kowani wrote:
Napkizemlja wrote:Divorcing oneself from ideology, one could argue that the Renaissance, and to a lesser extent the Enlightenment, were reactionary given how often they sought to emulate Classical Antiquity and "bring back" aspects of it.

One could, but one would be wrong.

Not necessarily. From the perspective of the 14th+ centuries, to a considerable extent the proponents of classicalism were certainly arguing in favor of the status quo ante. And it was the reaction of looking to the past to bring back lost values in order to improve the present and future, which is a hallmark of reactionary thought and politics.
Last edited by Napkizemlja on Mon May 13, 2019 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dodging LEGO pieces on the floor like a boss. The new unofficial RWDT anthem. Tory and communitarian. Asperger's. Rollin' 3-4-8 Orthoboo Gang. A repentant asshole.

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Washington Resistance Army
Post Czar
 
Posts: 41689
Founded: Aug 08, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby Washington Resistance Army » Mon May 13, 2019 11:18 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:Then you must face the simple fact that the vast majority of people are not correct or right on every issue, and as such, the idea that moderation on its own merits will not result in horrendous compromises is simply an untenable position.

I agree, being moderate on everything is a bad idea. Compromise when you can. When you can't, don't.


Compromise is a meme that just leads to neither party getting what they want and breeds discontent amongst both sides who will seek to subvert said compromise at the nearest opportunity.

Source: America

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Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 63303
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Genivaria » Mon May 13, 2019 11:18 pm

Minzerland II wrote:
Genivaria wrote:When did insulting people you disagree with become a valid argument?

I’m a tradcat you dunce

So you're just ignorantly insulting all progressives?
Oh and me of course.
Last edited by Genivaria on Mon May 13, 2019 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
General Sherman did nothing wrong, fact.
Liberal Social Democrat.

Proud denouncer of the Taliban.

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The Xenopolis Confederation
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7788
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Mon May 13, 2019 11:20 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:I agree, being moderate on everything is a bad idea. Compromise when you can. When you can't, don't.


Compromise is a meme that just leads to neither party getting what they want and breeds discontent amongst both sides who will seek to subvert said compromise at the nearest opportunity.

Source: America

It is precisely that anti-compromise attitude that's destroying America.
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Psychedelic Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0.5
Social: -8
I'm an 18 year old Australian who tries to think about things but fails, as we all do. I'll regret this in 2 years tops.

I think I have gender dysphoria so I'd prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

User avatar
Minzerland II
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5589
Founded: Aug 27, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Minzerland II » Mon May 13, 2019 11:20 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Minzerland II wrote:That’s really the problem, though, you know nothing, just like every other tradcat or progressive that surfs these stupid forums, but you have an obsession with pretending to be an expert on shit

Mind pointing out where I pretended I was an expert? I am sure that you can do so and are not just sore about the fact that I have a different opinion on a matter of theology than you. I am assured of this. Of this I am assured.

I think I’m more sore that you’re allowed to touch a computer, tbqh, the internets average IQ would by 100+ higher, though obviously below zero you’re basic bitch progressivism and American exceptionalism is the scourge of the earth worse than the Black Plague in consequences and scope
Previous Profile: Minzerland
Donkey Advocate & Herald of Donkeydom
St Anselm of Canterbury wrote:[…]who ever heard of anything having two mothers or two fathers? (Monologion, pg. 63)

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Minzerland II
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Posts: 5589
Founded: Aug 27, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Minzerland II » Mon May 13, 2019 11:21 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Minzerland II wrote:I’m a tradcat you dunce

So you're just ignorantly insulting all progressives?
Oh and me of course.

‘ignorant’ so coy
Previous Profile: Minzerland
Donkey Advocate & Herald of Donkeydom
St Anselm of Canterbury wrote:[…]who ever heard of anything having two mothers or two fathers? (Monologion, pg. 63)

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Kowani
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16782
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Mon May 13, 2019 11:22 pm

Minzerland II wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:Mind pointing out where I pretended I was an expert? I am sure that you can do so and are not just sore about the fact that I have a different opinion on a matter of theology than you. I am assured of this. Of this I am assured.

I think I’m more sore that you’re allowed to touch a computer, tbqh, the internets average IQ would by 100+ higher, though obviously below zero you’re basic bitch progressivism and American exceptionalism is the scourge of the earth worse than the Black Plague in consequences and scope

Who pissed in your Cheerio’s this morning?
Narcissistic (Hedonistic) Nihilist. Yes, I am edgy. I know.
Atheist and still proud of it. Spanish Expat.
Post-Capitalist, Post-Nationalist.
Rights are functionally just privileges society has deemed important.
Prydania wrote:
As a Canadian? I find Americans and their deep, deep distrust of the government to be fundamentally, critically, laughably flawed. I find some aspects of your country completely absurd. The distrust of anything remotely resembling authority is one. The gun problem that stems from that is another.

Seangoli wrote:You are spouting nonsensical drivel with no coherent thought, little logic, and at the end of it all just angry opining at the clouds based on a truly astonishly low level of knowledge or understanding of the subject matter.

0% Capitalism

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Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 63303
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Genivaria » Mon May 13, 2019 11:23 pm

Minzerland II wrote:
Genivaria wrote:So you're just ignorantly insulting all progressives?
Oh and me of course.

‘ignorant’ so coy

So arrogant.
General Sherman did nothing wrong, fact.
Liberal Social Democrat.

Proud denouncer of the Taliban.

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Minzerland II
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5589
Founded: Aug 27, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Minzerland II » Mon May 13, 2019 11:23 pm

Kowani wrote:
Minzerland II wrote:I think I’m more sore that you’re allowed to touch a computer, tbqh, the internets average IQ would by 100+ higher, though obviously below zero you’re basic bitch progressivism and American exceptionalism is the scourge of the earth worse than the Black Plague in consequences and scope

Who pissed in your Cheerio’s this morning?

Mr. (((Schlomo))) obviously
Previous Profile: Minzerland
Donkey Advocate & Herald of Donkeydom
St Anselm of Canterbury wrote:[…]who ever heard of anything having two mothers or two fathers? (Monologion, pg. 63)

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Napkizemlja
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Founded: Apr 13, 2019
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Postby Napkizemlja » Mon May 13, 2019 11:24 pm

I'm more of Frosted Flakes kind of guy. Interestingly, iirc, corn flakes were invented to try and prevent masturbation.
Last edited by Napkizemlja on Mon May 13, 2019 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dodging LEGO pieces on the floor like a boss. The new unofficial RWDT anthem. Tory and communitarian. Asperger's. Rollin' 3-4-8 Orthoboo Gang. A repentant asshole.

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Minzerland II
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Posts: 5589
Founded: Aug 27, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Minzerland II » Mon May 13, 2019 11:24 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Minzerland II wrote:‘ignorant’ so coy

So arrogant.

Image
Previous Profile: Minzerland
Donkey Advocate & Herald of Donkeydom
St Anselm of Canterbury wrote:[…]who ever heard of anything having two mothers or two fathers? (Monologion, pg. 63)

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Washington Resistance Army
Post Czar
 
Posts: 41689
Founded: Aug 08, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby Washington Resistance Army » Mon May 13, 2019 11:25 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Compromise is a meme that just leads to neither party getting what they want and breeds discontent amongst both sides who will seek to subvert said compromise at the nearest opportunity.

Source: America

It is precisely that anti-compromise attitude that's destroying America.


There's a great many things destroying America, but this isn't very high up on the list. Anti-compromise attitudes have only become popular in the recent past, and for good reason. Nobody respects compromise and always seeks to subvert it further for ideological goals. Trying to come to the table with someone who wants the polar opposite of you is insanity.

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Kowani
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Posts: 16782
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Mon May 13, 2019 11:25 pm

Minzerland II wrote:
Kowani wrote:Who pissed in your Cheerio’s this morning?

Mr. (((Schlomo))) obviously

Uh-huh.

Napkizemlja wrote:I'm more of Frosted Flakes kind of guy. Interestingly, iirc, corn flakes were invented to try and prevent masturbation.

What.
Narcissistic (Hedonistic) Nihilist. Yes, I am edgy. I know.
Atheist and still proud of it. Spanish Expat.
Post-Capitalist, Post-Nationalist.
Rights are functionally just privileges society has deemed important.
Prydania wrote:
As a Canadian? I find Americans and their deep, deep distrust of the government to be fundamentally, critically, laughably flawed. I find some aspects of your country completely absurd. The distrust of anything remotely resembling authority is one. The gun problem that stems from that is another.

Seangoli wrote:You are spouting nonsensical drivel with no coherent thought, little logic, and at the end of it all just angry opining at the clouds based on a truly astonishly low level of knowledge or understanding of the subject matter.

0% Capitalism

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Kowani
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16782
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Mon May 13, 2019 11:26 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Compromise is a meme that just leads to neither party getting what they want and breeds discontent amongst both sides who will seek to subvert said compromise at the nearest opportunity.

Source: America

It is precisely that anti-compromise attitude that's destroying America.

Compromise is ended Reconstruction.
Narcissistic (Hedonistic) Nihilist. Yes, I am edgy. I know.
Atheist and still proud of it. Spanish Expat.
Post-Capitalist, Post-Nationalist.
Rights are functionally just privileges society has deemed important.
Prydania wrote:
As a Canadian? I find Americans and their deep, deep distrust of the government to be fundamentally, critically, laughably flawed. I find some aspects of your country completely absurd. The distrust of anything remotely resembling authority is one. The gun problem that stems from that is another.

Seangoli wrote:You are spouting nonsensical drivel with no coherent thought, little logic, and at the end of it all just angry opining at the clouds based on a truly astonishly low level of knowledge or understanding of the subject matter.

0% Capitalism

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Joohan
Minister
 
Posts: 2619
Founded: Jan 11, 2018
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Joohan » Mon May 13, 2019 11:32 pm

Garibaldi did nothing wrong. Lincoln did nothing wrong. Ataturk did nothing wrong.


Ataturk was a liberal who wanted to destroy the Turkish identity so as to turn his country into another cosmopolitan European state. Muy wrong

Joohan wrote:1. Didn't the freedmen do quite well for themselves in Roman society?

No.
Such a huge part of the Roman bureaucracy and administration that I think either Claudius or Hadrian had to enact Roman Affirmative Action just to make sure they didn't completely dominate civil service.

Incorrect again. They were barred from certain positions because beforehand, those imperial positions were only open to freedmen, because it was seen as inappropriate for the Primus Inter Pares to give commands to his fellow citizens not under arms.
I think The only people who could really talk down with authority to them were the more traditional aristocracy.

No.


I wasn't too familiar with the situation of the freedmen in Roman society, but after reading through some sources it seems like they were quite well off - certainly more so than most of the groups on this list at least. An extensive employ within the state, often a specialized workforce, I've seen a couple of the freedmen became quite wealthy and reputable like the playwright Terence, or the brothers of house Vettii. There was supposedly even a play which poked fun at the rising class of wealthy freedmen in the Satyricon. It just seems like the freedmen of Rome weren't really discriminated against on the level we might associate with say blacks in America prior to civil rights.

2. Poor got massacred, the rich would pay bribes for their protection

First part is correct, second isn't. Remember the massacres on King Richard I's coronation day? I am very sure that the prominent Jewish members of society bringing gifts to Richard's coronation were very poor fellows indeed.


The jews who came to the coronation ceremony knew ahead of time they weren't supposed to be there - it was a ceremonial tradition. The king hadn't gone out of his way to try and persecute them, they just came at a time and place when they knew that they shouldn't have. And that pogroms would often kill rich and poor alike isn't in dispute - but I am saying that the Rich often were often free from any such worries. Again, during the people's crusade, while tens of thousands of soldiers were moving from western Europe through Germany, it was wealthy jews who would bribe these roving armies into continue moving toward the Holy Land - ensuring their security ( for all but the count Emicho ).

For fuck's sake, this is such a ridiculous position to take that I have trouble attributing it solely to ignorance.


Sure, lol :roll:
3. were never an affluent group to begin with

lol


10/10, would reply again :clap: .
4. Merchants weren't trusted by the locals... so what? If not respected, merchants were an extremely powerful and influential class throughout the Medieval age

"Weren't trusted by the locals"

That's a very fine way of saying "Completely at the mercy of an aristocracy which hated their guts absent the ability to beat them on the field of battle"

The only reason merchants became powerful and influential was because they created entire fucking parallel societies in the larger cities.


… that's, kind of entirely the point i'm making. It didn't matter if people didn't like the merchants - they were so rich and powerful that they didn't care.

5. Same as their counterparts in Europe.

No, in fact, it was much worse, because China and Japan didn't develop quite the same tradition of decentralized pseudo-city-states that Europe did.

The worst discrimination that the Shang ( merchant class ) ever received was being forbidden to take the scholar entrance exam, and not being able to hold government office. Regardless of this, merchants were still able to acquire vast amounts of wealth, land, and influence within the imperial government - well beyond their supposed social standing. Hell, by the Song dynasty even the conservative scholarly class was working hand in hand with the merchants to secure commercial monopolies and pool their own wealth. I don't see how they were more marginalized than the average peasant because they were barred from becoming officials or because the scholars wrote mean things about them.

6. Again, astoundingly poor. Though, for those who did manage to become rich, their lot in society was quite fantastic: C. J. Walker, Jeremiah Walker had no trouble with being black after becoming millionaires.

Yes, I am sure that her advocacy and donation of hundreds of thousands of dollars in causes against racism was purely an abstract concern.

[/quote]

I'm not following what you mean here. And for whatever CJ Walker did, Jeremiah Hamilton ( my bad first time round in writing Walker ) contributed nothing to help fight racism ( quite the opposite if anything ).

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Minzerland II
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5589
Founded: Aug 27, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Minzerland II » Mon May 13, 2019 11:33 pm

How does it feel to be the David Irving for the Mongols hordes, CM?
Previous Profile: Minzerland
Donkey Advocate & Herald of Donkeydom
St Anselm of Canterbury wrote:[…]who ever heard of anything having two mothers or two fathers? (Monologion, pg. 63)

User avatar
Minzerland II
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5589
Founded: Aug 27, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Minzerland II » Mon May 13, 2019 11:36 pm

Minzerland II wrote:How does it feel to be the David Irving for the Mongols hordes, CM?

Isn’t the first prostitute the hordes had the pleasure of knowing

just like your hero the Whore of Bithynia with your genocide apologism
Last edited by Minzerland II on Mon May 13, 2019 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Previous Profile: Minzerland
Donkey Advocate & Herald of Donkeydom
St Anselm of Canterbury wrote:[…]who ever heard of anything having two mothers or two fathers? (Monologion, pg. 63)

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