Right Wing Discussion Thread XV: A New Hoppe

[Joohan]

Sight me an example were material wealth did not overcome the limitations of bigotry in a society.

Roman freedmen, infames, and peregrini.

Jews in Europe.

Moriscos in Spain.

Merchants in feudal societies.

Merchants in Confucian societies.

Merchants in feudal Confucian societies.

American blacks before the Civil Rights Movement.

1. Didn't the freedmen do quite well for themselves in Roman society? Such a huge part of the Roman bureaucracy and administration that I think either Claudius or Hadrian had to enact Roman Affirmative Action just to make sure they didn't completely dominate civil service.I think The only people who could really talk down with authority to them were the more traditional aristocracy.

2. Poor got massacred, the rich would pay bribes for their protection

3. were never an affluent group to begin with

4. Merchants weren't trusted by the locals... so what? If not respected, merchants were an extremely powerful and influential class throughout the Medieval age

5. Same as their counterparts in Europe.

6. Again, astoundingly poor. Though, for those who did manage to become rich, their lot in society was quite fantastic: C. J. Walker, Jeremiah Walker had no trouble with being black after becoming millionaires.

[Joohan]

The poorest people in India.

Ironically a lot of enmity against Dalits in some areas has to do with them being economically successful.

Caste is divorced from economic status. There are poor brahmins and rich outcastes. That still doesn't upend the deep systematic social discrimination against them.

Where ( or when ) are rich Dalits? I've honestly only ever heard of terribly poor Dalits.

[Conserative Morality]

Garibaldi did nothing wrong. Lincoln did nothing wrong. Ataturk did nothing wrong.

Death to the dogmas of reactionaries is life to the people.

1. Didn't the freedmen do quite well for themselves in Roman society?

No.

Such a huge part of the Roman bureaucracy and administration that I think either Claudius or Hadrian had to enact Roman Affirmative Action just to make sure they didn't completely dominate civil service.

Incorrect again. They were barred from certain positions because beforehand, those imperial positions were only open to freedmen, because it was seen as inappropriate for the Primus Inter Pares to give commands to his fellow citizens not under arms.

I think The only people who could really talk down with authority to them were the more traditional aristocracy.

No.

2. Poor got massacred, the rich would pay bribes for their protection

First part is correct, second isn't. Remember the massacres on King Richard I's coronation day? I am very sure that the prominent Jewish members of society bringing gifts to Richard's coronation were very poor fellows indeed.

For fuck's sake, this is such a ridiculous position to take that I have trouble attributing it solely to ignorance.

3. were never an affluent group to begin with

lol

4. Merchants weren't trusted by the locals... so what? If not respected, merchants were an extremely powerful and influential class throughout the Medieval age

"Weren't trusted by the locals"

That's a very fine way of saying "Completely at the mercy of an aristocracy which hated their guts absent the ability to beat them on the field of battle"

The only reason merchants became powerful and influential was because they created entire fucking parallel societies in the larger cities.

5. Same as their counterparts in Europe.

No, in fact, it was much worse, because China and Japan didn't develop quite the same tradition of decentralized pseudo-city-states that Europe did.

6. Again, astoundingly poor. Though, for those who did manage to become rich, their lot in society was quite fantastic: C. J. Walker, Jeremiah Walker had no trouble with being black after becoming millionaires.

Yes, I am sure that her advocacy and donation of hundreds of thousands of dollars in causes against racism was purely an abstract concern.

[Hanafuridake]

Ironically a lot of enmity against Dalits in some areas has to do with them being economically successful.

Caste is divorced from economic status. There are poor brahmins and rich outcastes. That still doesn't upend the deep systematic social discrimination against them.

Where ( or when ) are rich Dalits? I've honestly only ever heard of terribly poor Dalits.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/ ... agentleman

[Galloism]

I wouldn't bet on it tbh. Everyone is racing to the extremes and we as society did too little to stop it when we potentially could have, and even if we tried to reverse course the genie's already out of the bottle. The far left is becoming more and more normalized and I'd argue the far right already has become normalized to most of us.

You're absolutely right - why isn't my side racing to any extremes? We need an extremist movement of our own to counter this madness!

[Centrism Intensifies]

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Christ, what is it, anti-semite day? Did I fall into the 1900s when I wasn't looking?

History is repeating CM. Hope you're ready for another Nazi v Commie kerfuffle.

Where do liberals lie in this conflict?

[Hanafuridake]

Garibaldi did nothing wrong. Lincoln did nothing wrong. Ataturk did nothing wrong.

Death to the dogmas of reactionaries is life to the people.

Last I checked, it was the traditions of the reactionaries which make the people what they are today, so I'd put more stock on that than this.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

I wouldn't bet on it tbh. Everyone is racing to the extremes and we as society did too little to stop it when we potentially could have, and even if we tried to reverse course the genie's already out of the bottle. The far left is becoming more and more normalized and I'd argue the far right already has become normalized to most of us.

You're absolutely right - why isn't my side racing to any extremes? We need an extremist movement of our own to counter this madness!

We don't need an ecmxtremist movement, we need a moderate movement.

[Proctopeo]

You're absolutely right - why isn't my side racing to any extremes? We need an extremist movement of our own to counter this madness!

We don't need an ecmxtremist movement, we need a moderate movement.

How about moderate radical centrist extremism?

[Conserative Morality]

Nobunaga was a hero and a saint, Cromwell deserves canonization, William the Silent was too good for this sinful earth.

Last I checked, it was the traditions of the reactionaries which make the people what they are today, so I'd put more stock on that than this.

Oh, I suppose that is why we are living under a feudal regime with a monarch at the moment, being trying in parallel ecclesiastical courts for the crime of blasphemy. Thank you for this insight!

[Washington Resistance Army]

History is repeating CM. Hope you're ready for another Nazi v Commie kerfuffle.

Where do liberals lie in this conflict?

Realistic answer: in the ditch cuz both sides hate you lol
Hopeful answer: as a third faction trying to restore normalcy

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Garibaldi did nothing wrong. Lincoln did nothing wrong. Ataturk did nothing wrong.

Death to the dogmas of reactionaries is life to the people.

Last I checked, it was the traditions of the reactionaries which make the people what they are today, so I'd put more stock on that than this.

Liberal ideology, for better or for worse, has had a far greater influence on the modern west than most ideologies considered reactionary.

[Conserative Morality]

We don't need an ecmxtremist movement, we need a moderate movement.

Yes, I am sure that more waffling about will really show those Nazis and radical leftists who's boss!

[Proctopeo]

We don't need an ecmxtremist movement, we need a moderate movement.

Yes, I am sure that more waffling about will really show those Nazis and radical leftists who's boss!

Shut everyone up with the sound of raw, unbridled American freedom. Liberty cannot be negotiated, only watered.

[Conserative Morality]

Where do liberals lie in this conflict?

Realistic answer: in the ditch cuz both sides hate you lol
Hopeful answer: as a third faction trying to restore normalcy

[Duhon]

Yes, I am sure that more waffling about will really show those Nazis and radical leftists who's boss!

Shut everyone up with the sound of raw, unbridled American freedom. Liberty cannot be negotiated, only watered.

*contorts in Pinoy*

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

We don't need an ecmxtremist movement, we need a moderate movement.

How about moderate radical centrist extremism?

That's plan B.

We don't need an ecmxtremist movement, we need a moderate movement.

Yes, I am sure that more waffling about will really show those Nazis and radical leftists who's boss!

Who said anything about waffling?

[Proctopeo]

Shut everyone up with the sound of raw, unbridled American freedom. Liberty cannot be negotiated, only watered.

*contorts in Pinoy*

In this blessed day, we are all destined to be liberated by the sweet land of liberty. Let freedom ring, with a shot heard round the world.

[Duhon]

*contorts in Pinoy*

In this blessed day, we are all destined to be liberated by the sweet land of liberty. Let freedom ring, with a shot heard round the world.

... look, I said contort, not break apart, dammit.

[Hanafuridake]

Nobunaga was a hero and a saint,

Well he's burning in hell right now, not a very saintly destination.

Last I checked, it was the traditions of the reactionaries which make the people what they are today, so I'd put more stock on that than this.

Oh, I suppose that is why we are living under a feudal regime with a monarch at the moment, being trying in parallel ecclesiastical courts for the crime of blasphemy. Thank you for this insight!

Whether you like it or not, Christianity has had such an immense effect on your people that they literally wouldn't exist if it had never been born.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Nobunaga was a hero and a saint,

Well he's burning in hell right now, not a very saintly destination.

Oh, I suppose that is why we are living under a feudal regime with a monarch at the moment, being trying in parallel ecclesiastical courts for the crime of blasphemy. Thank you for this insight!

Whether you like it or not, Christianity has had such an immense effect on your people that they literally wouldn't exist if it had never been born.

The presence of Christianity as a cultural force in the west does not mean reactionary ideology is still strong. Modern Christianity and Christian values are much more liberal and tolerant than they were in the middle ages.

[Conserative Morality]

Who said anything about waffling?

moderate

He who is moderate in his beliefs is not a believer in a cause, but a believer in a convenient state of affairs. He who only moderately dislikes injustice is no enemy of it. He who moderately enjoys democracy is no defender of it.

There had to be an end of slavery. Then we were fighting an enemy with whom we could not make a peace. We had to destroy him. No convention, no treaty was possible. Only destruction.

Yesterday, I said war to death with Bonaparte. Today I say, defend the French Republic at all costs!

We will do that because they are wrong and we are right, and I will prove it to you in just a few minutes.

[Conserative Morality]

Well he's burning in hell right now, not a very saintly destination.

I'm sure he's become the Demon King of Sixth Heaven he always said he was and is currently plotting on conquering the other five or so.

Whether you like it or not, Christianity has had such an immense effect on your people that they literally wouldn't exist if it had never been born.

Whether you like it or not, archaic religions have very little influence in their original form on the functions or form of modern society. Even the folk in the modern day who call themselves conservatives are only conserving, at most, a liberalized late 19th century conceptualization of the religion.

[Tornado Queendom]

Maybe, but the Soviets outright purged the area of German influence, population, and identity in brutally short fashion. The Ottoman Turks took far longer to do that to the Christian Greeks. To the point, if you were to bring that area back into the Greek nation it would be virtually alien in every way.

Yes, much the same happened to Danzig and Breslau.

Truly a sad state of affairs.

Here's what they should do: steal the in WWIII. They're already importing millions of Muslims, most of whom are not assimilating or being Germanized, so I don't see why they can't take back Konigsberg when they're already importing very different people.

[Hanafuridake]

Well he's burning in hell right now, not a very saintly destination.

I'm sure he's become the Demon King of Sixth Heaven he always said he was and is currently plotting on conquering the other five or so.

When CM thinks this is actually a clever comeback but just shows he doesn't actually know what a Devil King is.

Whether you like it or not, Christianity has had such an immense effect on your people that they literally wouldn't exist if it had never been born.

Whether you like it or not, archaic religions have very little influence in their original form on the functions or form of modern society. Even the folk in the modern day who call themselves conservatives are only conserving, at most, a liberalized late 19th century conceptualization of the religion.

Only the Protestants really. I don't know of any liberal reformation of Catholicism, or Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, and other religions.