Cultural Appropriation?

[Eastern Tatarstan]

Cultural appropriation is just a myth. It didn't exist until somebody invented it because he ran out of any other things of which he could accuse people. And anybody who doesn't mind cultural appropriation is blessed.

[Telconi]

Cultural appropriation is generally only a problem when there's a double standard rooted in discrimination.

Technically the American celebrations of St Patrick's Day and Oktoberfest are technically appropriation, but are Irish-Americans and German-Americans oppressed for celebrating them? No.

Something like white people with dreadlocks is, because of the historical racist oppression of black people being forced to look "white" in order to fit in, but when a white person does it and get seen as hip and trendy for something a black person had to get rid of in order to get equal treatment, it's a racist double standard and that's when appropriation becomes an issue.

There's something to be said about disrespect and turning a culture into a theme park attraction, that's another facet, but overall, it's better to be safe, and in some cases there are people who are eager share culture icons, clothes, and food with others. So, you could wear that kimono when you visit Japan but don't go out to a halloween party with dreads or that eagle feather war headdress.

Comparisons of modern views to past views are invidious.

[Risottia]

Pizza, pasta, Sauerkraut, gelato.

flat bread, boiled dough and pickled cabbage are not inherently European dishes, and given that tomatoes originated in Americas, a good lot of pizza and pasta types must be considered international fusion dishes.

You may have a point about Gelato however

Oh I see.
If it's European everyone else did something similar, so it's fair game.

[Hanafuridake]

In some cases, I can see cultural appropriation being a serious problem when it comes to marginalized cultures such as Native Americans who have to deal with fragments of their histories being maligned by Plastic Shamans and 1/16th Cherokee types. There are legitimate grievances that aboriginal peoples have which shouldn't be brushed under the rug.

Most other cases, it's people being overtly sensitive and shockingly ignorant about the cultures they're trying to defend. Arianne Grande being criticized for cultural appropriation because of a kanji tattoo is incredibly stupid, and ironic since kanji itself didn't originate in Japan, but was borrowed from mainland Asia. That tends to be how cultures work. They aren't static essentialist entities which have no interaction outside conflict or exploitation, that just plays into the narratives of White Nationalists.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Cultural appropriation is a nonsense.

[Fethard]

Comparisons of modern views to past views are invidious.

Didn't you hear? As white people, we're now responsible for our ancestors' actions, so it's up to us to hold the burden over our heads.

[Telconi]

Comparisons of modern views to past views are invidious.

Didn't you hear? As white people, we're now responsible for our ancestors' actions, so it's up to us to hold the burden over our heads.

To. Uh... not wear certain hairstyles... yeah...

[Cetacea]

flat bread, boiled dough and pickled cabbage are not inherently European dishes, and given that tomatoes originated in Americas, a good lot of pizza and pasta types must be considered international fusion dishes.

You may have a point about Gelato however

Oh I see.
If it's European everyone else did something similar, so it's fair game.

yes absolutely

a classic example is Vindaloo curry - most would consider this a classic India dish, except that its derived from the Portugese carne de vinha d'alhos (meat with wine and garlic) plus the addition of peppers and 'curry' spices


as to cultural appropriation though, I come from a culture that features distinctive cultural tatoo, and have criticized my own relatives for mixing in celtic knots and runic symbols because they arent 'your culture', I also remember back when my sons school was going to do pancake day with no reference to the religious aspects, I objected to that as appropriation due to it being deprived of cultural context

[Ifreann]

I just returned from a performance by the BPO of Arron Copland's Concerto for Clarinet and Orchestra with Anthony McGill as the featured clarinetist. It was excellent. However, a random thought passed my mind while enjoying it.

Copland, a white man, wrote this piece for Benny Goodman, another white man. Should the Buffalo Philharmonic Orchestra be condemned for cultural appropriation by featuring a Black clarinetist in such a piece, despite the fact that he was excellent? After all, this was a piece written by a white man for a white performer.

For those who believe that cultural appropriation is a thing, and wrong, is this an example of it? If no, why not?

Cultural appropriation isn't necessarily bad, and isn't in this case, but I'm sure this thread will be more interested in saying stupid shit like "Liberals think only Russians can play Tetris olololo".

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Oh I see.
If it's European everyone else did something similar, so it's fair game.

yes absolutely

a classic example is Vindaloo curry - most would consider this a classic India dish, except that its derived from the Portugese carne de vinha d'alhos (meat with wine and garlic) plus the addition of peppers and 'curry' spices


as to cultural appropriation though, I come from a culture that features distinctive cultural tatoo, and have criticied my own relatives for mixing in celtic knots and runic symbols because they arent 'your culture', I also remember back when my sons school was going to do pancake day with no reference to the religious aspects, I objected to that as appropriation due to it being deprived of cultural context

Why on Earth did you feel the need to object to it? It's kids eating pancakes, just let kids eat pancakes. Kids like pancakes. Everyone likes pancakes.

[Cetacea]

yes absolutely

a classic example is Vindaloo curry - most would consider this a classic India dish, except that its derived from the Portugese carne de vinha d'alhos (meat with wine and garlic) plus the addition of peppers and 'curry' spices


as to cultural appropriation though, I come from a culture that features distinctive cultural tatoo, and have criticied my own relatives for mixing in celtic knots and runic symbols because they arent 'your culture', I also remember back when my sons school was going to do pancake day with no reference to the religious aspects, I objected to that as appropriation due to it being deprived of cultural context

Why on Earth did you feel the need to object to it? It's kids eating pancakes, just let kids eat pancakes. Kids like pancakes. Everyone likes pancakes.

Yes I love pancakes, but schools should ensure children know why they are doing something. Also I'm an anthropologist, examining cultural context is what I do

[VoVoDoCo]

Cultural Appropriation is a spook

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Why on Earth did you feel the need to object to it? It's kids eating pancakes, just let kids eat pancakes. Kids like pancakes. Everyone likes pancakes.

Yes I love pancakes, but schools should ensure children know why they are doing something. Also I'm an anthropologist, examining cultural context is what I do

Surely in this context, ensuring that the kids know why they are doing it is more harmful than not doing, as it is shoving religion down their throats?

[Cetacea]

Yes I love pancakes, but schools should ensure children know why they are doing something. Also I'm an anthropologist, examining cultural context is what I do

Surely in this context, ensuring that the kids know why they are doing it is more harmful than not doing, as it is shoving religion down their throats?

well, no more than the upcoming Easter Holiday is shoving religion down their throats (literally via chocolate and pancakes )

However because Easter is a marked day in our calendar I think that the cultural aspects of spending one day indulging in rich food (Pancakes) before we spend time fasting and 'thinking of others' before Easter time can be explained without overt religious zealotry

Also I'd have been happier if they also included pancake races and a massive game of mob football

[Elwher]

OP, Please source that the piece was specifically written for a white man.

Soon after Copland composed his Symphony No. 3, in 1947 jazz clarinetist Benny Goodman commissioned him to write a concerto for clarinet. Goodman told Copland biographer Vivian Perlis:[2][3]

I made no demands on what Copland should write. He had completely free rein, except that I should have a two-year exclusivity on playing the work. I paid two thousand dollars and that's real money. At the time there were not too many American composers to pick from... We never had much trouble except for a little fracas about the spot before the cadenza where he had written a repetition of some phrase. I was a little sticky about leaving it out—it was where the viola was the echo to give the clarinet a cue. But I think Aaron finally did leave it out... Aaron and I played the concerto quite a few times with him conducting, and we made two recordings"

And

Please source that a black man is not part of American culture.

Then by that logic there is no cultural appropriation when white Americans adopt music from black Americans, as both are Americans?

[Scomagia]

Cultural appropriation is generally only a problem when there's a double standard rooted in discrimination.

Technically the American celebrations of St Patrick's Day and Oktoberfest are technically appropriation, but are Irish-Americans and German-Americans oppressed for celebrating them? No.

Something like white people with dreadlocks is, because of the historical racist oppression of black people being forced to look "white" in order to fit in, but when a white person does it and get seen as hip and trendy for something a black person had to get rid of in order to get equal treatment, it's a racist double standard and that's when appropriation becomes an issue.

There's something to be said about disrespect and turning a culture into a theme park attraction, that's another facet, but overall, it's better to be safe, and in some cases there are people who are eager share culture icons, clothes, and food with others. So, you could wear that kimono when you visit Japan but don't go out to a halloween party with dreads or that eagle feather war headdress.

Minor note: dreadlocks are not any more a black hairstyle than they are a white hairstyle.

[Auzkhia]

Cultural appropriation is generally only a problem when there's a double standard rooted in discrimination.

Technically the American celebrations of St Patrick's Day and Oktoberfest are technically appropriation, but are Irish-Americans and German-Americans oppressed for celebrating them? No.

Something like white people with dreadlocks is, because of the historical racist oppression of black people being forced to look "white" in order to fit in, but when a white person does it and get seen as hip and trendy for something a black person had to get rid of in order to get equal treatment, it's a racist double standard and that's when appropriation becomes an issue.

There's something to be said about disrespect and turning a culture into a theme park attraction, that's another facet, but overall, it's better to be safe, and in some cases there are people who are eager share culture icons, clothes, and food with others. So, you could wear that kimono when you visit Japan but don't go out to a halloween party with dreads or that eagle feather war headdress.

Minor note: dreadlocks are not any more a black hairstyle than they are a white hairstyle.

Fair, but it's a specific example, of how I was trying to show that the double standards are the reason why people bring up this issue.

[Dresderstan]

Cultural appropriation is generally only a problem when there's a double standard rooted in discrimination.

Technically the American celebrations of St Patrick's Day and Oktoberfest are technically appropriation, but are Irish-Americans and German-Americans oppressed for celebrating them? No.

Something like white people with dreadlocks is, because of the historical racist oppression of black people being forced to look "white" in order to fit in, but when a white person does it and get seen as hip and trendy for something a black person had to get rid of in order to get equal treatment, it's a racist double standard and that's when appropriation becomes an issue.

There's something to be said about disrespect and turning a culture into a theme park attraction, that's another facet, but overall, it's better to be safe, and in some cases there are people who are eager share culture icons, clothes, and food with others. So, you could wear that kimono when you visit Japan but don't go out to a halloween party with dreads or that eagle feather war headdress.

Minor note: dreadlocks are not any more a black hairstyle than they are a white hairstyle.

Billy Idol wearing dreadlocks during his "Cyberpunk" era was dated then, is dated now and looks ridiculous.

[Scomagia]

Minor note: dreadlocks are not any more a black hairstyle than they are a white hairstyle.

Fair, but it's a specific example, of how I was trying to show that the double standards are the reason why people bring up this issue.

No, I get it. I'm just pointing out that dreadlocks are a bad example of appropriation since cultures all over the world have worn dreadlocks. It's just easier for those with afro-textured hair to grow them.

[Ethel mermania]

OP, Please source that the piece was specifically written for a white man.

Soon after Copland composed his Symphony No. 3, in 1947 jazz clarinetist Benny Goodman commissioned him to write a concerto for clarinet. Goodman told Copland biographer Vivian Perlis:[2][3]

I made no demands on what Copland should write. He had completely free rein, except that I should have a two-year exclusivity on playing the work. I paid two thousand dollars and that's real money. At the time there were not too many American composers to pick from... We never had much trouble except for a little fracas about the spot before the cadenza where he had written a repetition of some phrase. I was a little sticky about leaving it out—it was where the viola was the echo to give the clarinet a cue. But I think Aaron finally did leave it out... Aaron and I played the concerto quite a few times with him conducting, and we made two recordings"

And

Please source that a black man is not part of American culture.

Then by that logic there is no cultural appropriation when white Americans adopt music from black Americans, as both are Americans?

Then it was a commissioned piece for a specific individual ( I did not know that, thanks). So once the two year window is up, we get back to my question. Was it written specifically for white men? If any other while man plays it doesnt it then become as much appropriation as a black fellow playing it?


Second point: When white people play jazz, blues, or gospel do we say they have culturally appropriated it ?

[The Archregimancy]

Do tell.

Both of them are musical forms almost entirely derived from African American culture. As Elvis's first producer Sam Phillips repeatedly said: 'If I could find a white man who had the Negro sound and the Negro feel, I could make a billion dollars'; and it turned out he was right.

Rightly or wrongly, Elvis has frequently come under attack for cultural appropriation of black music, and much of the early opposition to white audiences listening to rock and roll was openly race-based.

For the record, you're actually trying to say 'it's not comparable', not 'it's not compatible'; two different meanings there. But the circumstances clearly are comparable.

So when you write 'I don't think white people should just make blue Grass and classical music for the rest of eternity, but I also want to puke whenever the latest hip-hop slang comes out of the mouths of white pop stars like Katy Perry and Ariana Grande', presumably listening to white rock and roll stars such as Elvis sing music whose origins were so clearly tied to African-American culture similarly makes you 'want to puke'.

If not, we'll simply have to assume that you're a little inconsistent in your dislike of cultural appropriation.

That's more of his producers and the record labels fault for exploitation, not Elvis himself.

No you're wrong it doesn't make me want to puke.

Well, at least we've established that your outrage over white people performing hip hop is both A) selective and B) divorced from any historical context.

[Scomagia]

Minor note: dreadlocks are not any more a black hairstyle than they are a white hairstyle.

Billy Idol wearing dreadlocks during his "Cyberpunk" era was dated then, is dated now and looks ridiculous.

Which is irrelevant to the fact that dreadlocks are not a black invention.

[Dresderstan]

That's more of his producers and the record labels fault for exploitation, not Elvis himself.

No you're wrong it doesn't make me want to puke.

Well, at least we've established that your outrage over white people performing hip hop is both A) selective and B) divorced from any historical context.

Rock /=/ hip-hop

[Ethel mermania]

Well, at least we've established that your outrage over white people performing hip hop is both A) selective and B) divorced from any historical context.

Rock /=/ hip-hop

a whole bunch of folks who made a whole lot of money on the topic would disagee.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4B_UYYPb-Gk

[Dresderstan]

Rock /=/ hip-hop

a whole bunch of folks who made a whole lot of money on the topic would disagee.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4B_UYYPb-Gk

...Touche