Cultural Appropriation?

[Murray land]

"Is it cultural appropration if I wear this beak?"

[Seangoli]

First, what you are describing isn't really appropriation.

Second, most appropriation is rather benign, if annoying. Weeaboos are a good Modern American form of annoyong aspects of appropriation. That said, there is appropriation of Western culture as well; the most recognizable is the Rockabillies in Japan and southeast Asia, which is just as dumb as any weeaboo shit.

Where it turns from annoying to a bit more problematic is when you start dealing with more complex issues. In the US, there is a rather common trend of appropriating Native culture, and this can lead to non-natives "representing" Native causes in the political spheres, or selling aspects of Native culture which can actually damage the Native causes and flirts with being demeaning towards traditions that are already shaky, at best.

It's not the end of the world, and most ofnthe time it is annoying and benign than something to be overly concerned about, however, unless it actually starts to cause real problems. Which is rare.

[Erythrean Thebes]

The preponderant part of cultural appropriation is the appropriator's not comprehending the meaning of what they've appropriated. This talented black clarinetist pretty likely knew and appreciated the musical virtue of the 'stolen' piece

[New haven america]

THAT'S what every non-isolationist culture does.

For example, Japan (Specifically Tezuka) appropriated our animation/character designs for their own series (If it wasn't for Disney and Warner's designs, anime and manga would be way different from what it is today), while the stories that those American creators made were appropriated from European creators and their stories (Which were inspired by older European folk tales with a lot of them being pagan in origin, The Brother's Grimm Fairy Tales being the most notable example).

... That was not what I meant. I was talking more along the lines of, oh, seeing various Christmas customs aped and distorted because it's what Americans are supposed to do during Christmas (KFC leaps to mind).

Actually I would use Japan's idea of Christmas as a good example of cultural appropriation. Japan's version of it is completely divorced from all of its religious and cultural backgrounds. The result, as it does every year, bemuses me at times (Finding a Doraemon Nativity scene at a local community center for example), other times though it does feel almost insulting. Or Christian weddings in Japan as well. All the trappings are there, but the understanding, the respect... it so isn't.

And that's a perfect example (Excluding Japan's Christian population which makes up a whole... maybe 1% of the country. Also Japanese Christianity is interesting to say the least). Japan, Korea, and China all take holidays and ceremonies that are Christian in origin and adapt it to their own cultures, that's an inevitability when you have cultures interacting with each other.

However, there is one little snag. Every culture has it's own version of what Christians are and what they're supposed to do, majority Orthodox areas are going to be different from majority Protestant areas, for example. Religions adapt to the culture they're in.

[Bear Stearns]

It's cultural appropriation when non-Anglos speak English.

Prove me wrong.

[The Galactic Liberal Democracy]

It's cultural appropriation when non-Anglos speak English.

Prove me wrong.

It’s cultural appropriation when non-Chinese use smart phones.

Prove me wrong.

[NERVUN]

I guess, if anything, it's a matter of degrees. Most Japanese I have met here in Japan would be more than happy to share their culture. They love to hear that others are interested in Japan. Indeed, they were confused about the various screaming that went on regarding the kimono experience, or GitS. It just... didn't figure.

There was a TV show my family (except for me) was quite fond of where they would send a Japanese expert in various traditional sports or crafts (The ones I saw were things like sushi, kendo, etc) to foreign countries where us gaijin were just DOING IT WRONG! Usually showing us for being clueless until the Japanese showed how to do it right. While I hated the show for what it was claiming, I liked how it went from a point of view that as long as the other party was willing to learn, even if they had it wrong, it would be ok. Just... needed a course correction.

That said, seeing some of the mishmash that happens over here... I get it. There are signs and symbols that have been taken as it were and misused here because as we all know, THAT'S what Americans do, wear, eat and sometimes it's offensive. I can understand that when it is done because it's cool, and with no attempt made to understand it, and obviously no interest IN properly understanding it, it's a problem.

How is it a problem though? Nobody gets hurts, restricted or otherwise negatively affected in any way.

What country are you from?

[Bear Stearns]

It's cultural appropriation when non-Anglos speak English.

Prove me wrong.

It’s cultural appropriation when non-Chinese use smart phones.

Prove me wrong.

And thus we arrive at the conclusion of how stupid it is to get pissed about this.

[Baltenstein]

How is it a problem though? Nobody gets hurts, restricted or otherwise negatively affected in any way.

What country are you from?

Why does that matter? You think I'd take offense if people in other countries mimic my own culture?

In any case, Germany and Greece.

[Bear Stearns]

What country are you from?

Why does that matter? You think I'd take offense if people in other countries mimic my own culture?

In any case, Germany and Greece.

tbh I thought you were British this whole time

[NERVUN]

... That was not what I meant. I was talking more along the lines of, oh, seeing various Christmas customs aped and distorted because it's what Americans are supposed to do during Christmas (KFC leaps to mind).

Actually I would use Japan's idea of Christmas as a good example of cultural appropriation. Japan's version of it is completely divorced from all of its religious and cultural backgrounds. The result, as it does every year, bemuses me at times (Finding a Doraemon Nativity scene at a local community center for example), other times though it does feel almost insulting. Or Christian weddings in Japan as well. All the trappings are there, but the understanding, the respect... it so isn't.

And that's a perfect example (Excluding Japan's Christian population which makes up a whole... maybe 1% of the country. Also Japanese Christianity is interesting to say the least). Japan, Korea, and China all take holidays and ceremonies that are Christian in origin and adapt it to their own cultures, that's an inevitability when you have cultures interacting with each other.

However, there is one little snag. Every culture has it's own version of what Christians are and what they're supposed to do, majority Orthodox areas are going to be different from majority Protestant areas, for example. Religions adapt to the culture they're in.

*Quietly reminds you that I've been in Japan for 14+ years now so, I'm well aware of what Japanese Christianity is like*

There's cultures coming together, and then there is doing things without understanding. For example, when my sister-in-law god married, she opted for a Christian wedding, complete with a gaijin priest to perform the ceremony. During the ceremony, which contained a REALLY bad mishmash of various Christian symbols (I.e. the choir wore robes that had the Presbyterian Church USA's symbol on it, while also wearing Catholic crucifixes, though one lady had this huge Gothic cross on that I'm fairly sure came from DQ), there was a section when my sister-in-law and my brother-in-law were being blessed by the 'priest' who intoned about how both were faithful and humble servants of Jesus Christ and would be sure to remain so and to spread His message and love.

I know for a fact that my wife's family are Buddhists. My sister-in-law, wonderful woman that she is, has no interest in Christianity, is not Christian, and didn't have a clue what was being said and done during that ceremony or why.

There's cultures meeting and during that meeting, things being shared because the other culture has a better idea, or is interesting, etc. Then there is taking things that have special meaning to the first culture and using them not because you, yourself have interest in them or knowledge of them, but because you think they look more romantic (In this case). So you care not for authenticity or for what was the original intent behind it. You don't even care about if the person supposedly doing this is real or not, you just want your stereotype image of that culture to be applied to you for YOUR own glory if you will, not to understand or appreciate it. That's why I say it's the intent. I don't mind if a little girl wants to dress in kimono as long as there's some actual interest in Japanese culture there... I look more in askance at the 'sexy' geisha that pop up every Halloween that don't even pretend to have an interest in Japan, get all the details wrong, and simply don't give two hoots and a holler.

[Bear Stearns]

I look more in askance at the 'sexy' geisha that pop up every Halloween that don't even pretend to have an interest in Japan, get all the details wrong, and simply don't give two hoots and a holler.

But here's the thing, who really cares? What harm is it if a drunk American girl dresses up as an inaccurate geisha? To most people, it's just fun and games.

[NERVUN]

What country are you from?

Why does that matter? You think I'd take offense if people in other countries mimic my own culture?

In any case, Germany and Greece.

Well, I COULD say that Japan loves its Oktoberfests... while serving Asahi Super Dry. That usually makes all my German friends here weep, wail, and gnash teeth.

I'm asking because I'd like to know what aspects of your culture do you feel are important to you?

[NERVUN]

I look more in askance at the 'sexy' geisha that pop up every Halloween that don't even pretend to have an interest in Japan, get all the details wrong, and simply don't give two hoots and a holler.

But here's the thing, who really cares? What harm is it if a drunk American girl dresses up as an inaccurate geisha? To most people, it's just fun and games.

What country are you from?

[Bear Stearns]

But here's the thing, who really cares? What harm is it if a drunk American girl dresses up as an inaccurate geisha? To most people, it's just fun and games.

What country are you from?

America.

[NERVUN]

What country are you from?

America.

Ok, I'll ask the same question, what aspects of American culture do you feel are important to you? Have value to you? I.e. help define you AS an American?

[Baltenstein]

Why does that matter? You think I'd take offense if people in other countries mimic my own culture?

In any case, Germany and Greece.

Well, I COULD say that Japan loves its Oktoberfests... while serving Asahi Super Dry. That usually makes all my German friends here weep, wail, and gnash teeth.

I lived in Mexico for a year and I've seen my fair share of narmtastic Oktoberfests there too. But if the Mexicans like it, why not? As long as I'm not expected to wear Lederhosen myself...

I'm asking because I'd like to know what aspects of your culture do you feel are important to you?

Whatever is important to me does not have to be important to others. My life and cultural expression therein is mine, and theirs ist theirs.
That's really is my main issue with the whole cultural appropration idea, that people are somehow obliged to invest the same amount of thought/emotions/respect/understanding/whatever into a symbol or custom they happen to visually/superficially like and want to have in their private lifes as I or others do in my/our private lifes.

tbh I thought you were British this whole time

'tis alright, mate. I appropriated Sean Bean from the British.

[Bear Stearns]

America.

Ok, I'll ask the same question, what aspects of American culture do you feel are important to you? Have value to you? I.e. help define you AS an American?

A good deal of it (English language, founding myths, heritage, cultural attitudes, food, dress, etc.), and it's regularly "appropriated" often in joking/mocking/satirical ways around the world.

Europeans often throw American-themed parties where people dress up like this.

Again, who cares?

[NERVUN]

Well, I COULD say that Japan loves its Oktoberfests... while serving Asahi Super Dry. That usually makes all my German friends here weep, wail, and gnash teeth.

I lived in Mexico for a year and I've seen my fair share of narmtastic Oktoberfests there too. But if the Mexicans like it, why not? As long as I'm not expected to wear Lederhosen myself...

I'm asking because I'd like to know what aspects of your culture do you feel are important to you?

Whatever is important to me does not have to be important to others. My life and cultural expression therein is mine, and theirs ist theirs.
That's really is my main issue with the whole cultural appropration idea, that people are somehow obliged to invest the same amount of thought/emotions/respect/understanding/whatever into a symbol or custom they happen to visually/superficially like and want to have in their private lifes as I or others do in my/our private lifes.

That's not answering my question. What aspects of your culture are important to YOU and indeed help you define you as a member of your culture?

[WENDIP SHIPPER]

It's a complex issue and there isn't one blanket answer that fits every situation.

There are cultures coming together, but then there are cases like The Lion Sleeps Tonight, which was literally stolen from a South African guy who died in poverty.

[NERVUN]

Ok, I'll ask the same question, what aspects of American culture do you feel are important to you? Have value to you? I.e. help define you AS an American?

A good deal of it (English language, founding myths, heritage, cultural attitudes, food, dress, etc.), and it's regularly "appropriated" often in joking/mocking/satirical ways around the world.

Europeans often throw American-themed parties where people dress up like this.

Again, who cares?

And you live inside the US?

[Bear Stearns]

A good deal of it (English language, founding myths, heritage, cultural attitudes, food, dress, etc.), and it's regularly "appropriated" often in joking/mocking/satirical ways around the world.

Europeans often throw American-themed parties where people dress up like this.

Again, who cares?

And you live inside the US?

Yup.

[Ethel mermania]

And that's a perfect example (Excluding Japan's Christian population which makes up a whole... maybe 1% of the country. Also Japanese Christianity is interesting to say the least). Japan, Korea, and China all take holidays and ceremonies that are Christian in origin and adapt it to their own cultures, that's an inevitability when you have cultures interacting with each other.

However, there is one little snag. Every culture has it's own version of what Christians are and what they're supposed to do, majority Orthodox areas are going to be different from majority Protestant areas, for example. Religions adapt to the culture they're in.

*Quietly reminds you that I've been in Japan for 14+ years now so, I'm well aware of what Japanese Christianity is like*

There's cultures coming together, and then there is doing things without understanding. For example, when my sister-in-law god married, she opted for a Christian wedding, complete with a gaijin priest to perform the ceremony. During the ceremony, which contained a REALLY bad mishmash of various Christian symbols (I.e. the choir wore robes that had the Presbyterian Church USA's symbol on it, while also wearing Catholic crucifixes, though one lady had this huge Gothic cross on that I'm fairly sure came from DQ), there was a section when my sister-in-law and my brother-in-law were being blessed by the 'priest' who intoned about how both were faithful and humble servants of Jesus Christ and would be sure to remain so and to spread His message and love.

I know for a fact that my wife's family are Buddhists. My sister-in-law, wonderful woman that she is, has no interest in Christianity, is not Christian, and didn't have a clue what was being said and done during that ceremony or why.

There's cultures meeting and during that meeting, things being shared because the other culture has a better idea, or is interesting, etc. Then there is taking things that have special meaning to the first culture and using them not because you, yourself have interest in them or knowledge of them, but because you think they look more romantic (In this case). So you care not for authenticity or for what was the original intent behind it. You don't even care about if the person supposedly doing this is real or not, you just want your stereotype image of that culture to be applied to you for YOUR own glory if you will, not to understand or appreciate it. That's why I say it's the intent. I don't mind if a little girl wants to dress in kimono as long as there's some actual interest in Japanese culture there... I look more in askance at the 'sexy' geisha that pop up every Halloween that don't even pretend to have an interest in Japan, get all the details wrong, and simply don't give two hoots and a holler.

*nuance*, stop that.

[NERVUN]

And you live inside the US?

Yup.

Ok, now as a fellow American, but an ex-pat, bear with me for a second. It's easier to state that who cares when you do live in the US. It's a bit harder to see those bad US themed parties (They have them over here too) when you are not. When you're not surrounded by your own culture, those bits that help define you as who you are, the parts of you that makes up your identity, they're harder to hold on to. In the US, it's all choice. In Japan, the choice is in many cases taken from me. I do not get a chance to decide how much I wish to participate, if I want to, or whatever. Instead, I am presented with people saying that THIS is my culture. I do not get to define it, the United States does not get to define it, these other people who have no actual interest or knowledge do, and are indeed telling me that THIS is who I am, even if I am not that.

That is a bit of an injury. Oh, not a blow to the head, but over time... it starts to tell more and more on you. Call it cultural death by a thousand paper cuts. Over time it does start to tell on you, your identity. Like it or not, humans are cultural animals. Some more so than others (If we were not, culture shock would not be a thing), and culture, as has been proven repeatedly, is a part of our self-image. Now image seeing that mocked daily. Given no value, no worth, and used in ways that were never intended. In a way, it's kinda like bullying. One day isn't going to do much damage, but repeatedly enduring it... It can tell.

So to get back to the sexy geisha, the problems as I have been told by a few Japanese is that they see it as one, perpetuation of the sexy subservient stereotype of Japanese women, which they themselves sometimes have to deal with (For those who have been outside of Japan), and also taking something that inside Japan is seen as a beacon of femininity, as a guardian of traditional culture, and getting it completely and utterly wrong. If it was just one person, it's not a big deal. But it's many people, constantly. That's where the problems come from.

And with that said, I'm afraid I have a lot of stuff on my plate. Baltenstein, my apologies, I cannot respond to you right now, assuming you've already answered. I'll try to get back to this later, but it's end of the school year and thus... well, I be busy.

[Betoni]

At which point does an cultural item that has been assimilated, appropriated or whatever become a legitimate part of the "host" culture? Zombies, for example have been a staple part of horror fiction in western culture for awhile, and have kind of become it's own thing. The origin of that kind of living dead being something quite different. So a person dressing up as a zombie and taking a stroll with like minded individuals isn't them being disrespectful to Haitians and misappropriating their culture, more immediately it is just people partaking in a bit of fun that they believe is part of their own culture.