Cultural Appropriation?

[Elwher]

I just returned from a performance by the BPO of Arron Copland's Concerto for Clarinet and Orchestra with Anthony McGill as the featured clarinetist. It was excellent. However, a random thought passed my mind while enjoying it.

Copland, a white man, wrote this piece for Benny Goodman, another white man. Should the Buffalo Philharmonic Orchestra be condemned for cultural appropriation by featuring a Black clarinetist in such a piece, despite the fact that he was excellent? After all, this was a piece written by a white man for a white performer.

For those who believe that cultural appropriation is a thing, and wrong, is this an example of it? If no, why not?

[Bezkoshtovnya]

I mean I think cultural appropriation is generally a pretty silly thing, but why would the fact that the original writer and performer were white and it is performed by someone who is black fall under cultural appropriation?

[Soviet Technocracy]

Benny Goodman is an American. Americans can be of any race.

[New haven america]

Cultural Appropriation and Diffusion are real things, all cultures practice them, and they're both neutral terms and practices.

Also, America's a multiracial country, deary.

[Free Arabian Nation]

It exists, but it isn't a problem

/thread

[Neanderthaland]

I'm not someone who cares much about cultural appropriation, but I'm pretty sure that's not what is meant by cultural appropriation.

If you're trying to argue about whether cultural appropriation is okay when non-White people do it, how about focusing on Japanese subcultures that variously imitate Americanisms instead?

[Cannot think of a name]

What a piss poor take on a complex issue.

[Mushet]

Lame gotcha thread, anyway the main difference between appropriation and good old fashioned adoption is respect.

[Seythennia]

Cultural appropriation exists but isn't a problem. It's seen as an "issue" for little to no reason. Cultures will inevitably mix and intersect over time. Or should the UK ask the world to stop appropriating British culture by speaking English?

Either way, a black clarinetist playing a song written by a white man is no more cultural appropriation than a white guy singing Crank That Soulja Boy.

[The Grims]

Was the song written for use in a religious ceremony or other deeply significant tradition this black man has no bond with?

No ?

Then there is no appropiation.

[Skarten]

Cultural Appropriation is the most ridiculous concept i've ever heard of.

[Conserative Morality]

As Trevor Noah once mentioned, oftentimes the people who are accused of being 'appropriated' from are actually quite eager to share their culture, because that's how culture fucking works.

Cultural appropriation is, as a valid concept, at most a more narrow category for cross-cultural ignorance and stereotyping.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

One needs to keep apart the concept of cultural appropriation, cultural appreciation, and cultural assimilation.

Cultural appreciation is absolutely fine, and it is a part of cross-cultural diffusion that is very important. Cultural appreciation is one of the virtues of a multicultural society, where ideas are shared between different cultures. For example, the practice of meditation is traditionally Asian, but it has been adopted throughout the world as a helpful tool for mental health. The spread of various foods, dishes and ingredients is also a form of cultural appreciation. When talking about cultural appropriation, people generally aren't talking about this. This is seen as a positive development.

However, cultural appropriation happens when a part of a culture is crudely mimicked without fully understanding it. For example, wearing a native american costume to a Halloween party. Oftentimes, these costumes mix and match various different pieces of clothing from different groups for what looks 'most Indian', so they are not even in any way authentic, and they are worn in order to 'look funny'. After all, that's why people wear costumes to Halloween parties. By doing that, you are making fun of a culture by not trying to understand it. That's cultural appropriation, and it's harmful because it keeps alive certain stereotypes that prohibit us from understanding other cultures complexly. When we think of native Americans, we often think of ululating horsemen wearing war bonnets, while all those practices were not at all common among even the plains tribes where they originate from. If we want to actually learn about these cultures, and practice cultural appreciation, we first need to let go of cultural appropriation, because it stops us from seeing these cultures as more than costumes.

Then, there is cultural assimilation. This is what happens when a minority group is penalised for doing or omitting something, forcing this group to adopt other practices. The most prominent example is when European colonisers banned certain cultural practices they deemed 'barbaric' in the nations they conquered, forcing them to adopt other practices. Further back, when the Islamic Caliphates ordered a tax on all non-Muslims, and those people then became Muslims, that is a form of cultural assimilation.

To get all these ideas in one picture: After the Meji restoration in Japan, traditional Samurai hair dress, clothing and the carrying of swords were forbidden. Many chose to wear western suits and haircuts, which was cultural assimilation to a now dominant culture that was repressing some of their practices. What we see in the movie 'The Last Samurai' is cultural appreciation: the main character tries to truly understand Japan, its culture, and the Samurai way of life over a longer period of time, and emulates that into his own mode of behaviour because it better suits him. However, when a 14 year old starts calling himself a 'Samurai' because he likes katanas, and is vaguely interested in 'honour' and 'loyalty' without truly studying bushido, that's cultural appropriation, since it's a bad mockery of actual culture.


Finally: what the OP describes is not any of these things, since there is no real cross-cultural transfer, and if it were, it would be cultural appreciation, since the music is respected and understood by everyone. There is no harm at all here. It would only be cultural appropriation if Anthony McGill decided to wear a kippah and shout 'Mazzeltov!' all the time, since that would misunderstand the Jewish culture that Goodman came from.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Cultural Appropriate is a load of overblown bollocks. Wish people would stop fucking crying about it.

[Bombadil]

Cultural Appropriate is a load of overblown bollocks. Wish people would stop fucking crying about it.

If you'd ever achieved anything in your life let alone been part of built up cultural symbols and values and someone took them to sell, I don't know, hamburgers.. then you might cry foul too.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Cultural Appropriate is a load of overblown bollocks. Wish people would stop fucking crying about it.

If you'd ever achieved anything in your life let alone been part of built up cultural symbols and values and someone took them to sell, I don't know, hamburgers.. then you might cry foul too.

Ive achieved plenty. Its still overblown and a lot of the time is just people looking to get outraged on behalf of others who are not outraged or annoyed in the slightest which is so condescending and patronising its ridiculous.

See that Chinese dress debacle, or the bitches crying about the white guy playing the fucking flute at E3 in Japanese attire.

[Baltenstein]

One needs to keep apart the concept of cultural appropriation, cultural appreciation, and cultural assimilation.

Cultural appreciation is absolutely fine, and it is a part of cross-cultural diffusion that is very important. Cultural appreciation is one of the virtues of a multicultural society, where ideas are shared between different cultures. For example, the practice of meditation is traditionally Asian, but it has been adopted throughout the world as a helpful tool for mental health. The spread of various foods, dishes and ingredients is also a form of cultural appreciation. When talking about cultural appropriation, people generally aren't talking about this. This is seen as a positive development.

However, cultural appropriation happens when a part of a culture is crudely mimicked without fully understanding it. For example, wearing a native american costume to a Halloween party. Oftentimes, these costumes mix and match various different pieces of clothing from different groups for what looks 'most Indian', so they are not even in any way authentic, and they are worn in order to 'look funny'. After all, that's why people wear costumes to Halloween parties. By doing that, you are making fun of a culture by not trying to understand it. That's cultural appropriation, and it's harmful because it keeps alive certain stereotypes that prohibit us from understanding other cultures complexly. When we think of native Americans, we often think of ululating horsemen wearing war bonnets, while all those practices were not at all common among even the plains tribes where they originate from. If we want to actually learn about these cultures, and practice cultural appreciation, we first need to let go of cultural appropriation, because it stops us from seeing these cultures as more than costumes.

People also dress as White cowboys at costume parties but I've never seen this presented as evidence of "disrespecting American culture". In fact, I've never seen this line of reasoning when people use symbols and habits of, say, Greek, Roman (it's probably easier to list countries whose public building architecture and interior decoration aren't inspired by European Antiquitiy in one way or another than those who are), Anglo-American or European cultural origin in general.
When Lebanese, Philippino or Nigerian youths make their own hip hop music, or when football is played in the streets of Brazil and India, do people put a lot of thought into "understanding Afro-American/British" culture?
I seriously doubt it.

To get all these ideas in one picture: After the Meji restoration in Japan, traditional Samurai hair dress, clothing and the carrying of swords were forbidden. Many chose to wear western suits and haircuts, which was cultural assimilation to a now dominant culture that was repressing some of their practices. What we see in the movie 'The Last Samurai' is cultural appreciation: the main character tries to truly understand Japan, its culture, and the Samurai way of life over a longer period of time, and emulates that into his own mode of behaviour because it better suits him. However, when a 14 year old starts calling himself a 'Samurai' because he likes katanas, and is vaguely interested in 'honour' and 'loyalty' without truly studying bushido, that's cultural appropriation, since it's a bad mockery of actual culture.

Japanese people try to mimic Anglo-American culture a great deal more extensively than the other way around. Do you also consider this "cultural appropriation"?

[Dresderstan]

I mean, I don't think white people should just make blue Grass and classical music for the rest of eternity, but I also want to puke whenever the latest hip-hop slang comes out of the mouths of white pop stars like Katy Perry and Ariana Grande.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

One needs to keep apart the concept of cultural appropriation, cultural appreciation, and cultural assimilation.

Cultural appreciation is absolutely fine, and it is a part of cross-cultural diffusion that is very important. Cultural appreciation is one of the virtues of a multicultural society, where ideas are shared between different cultures. For example, the practice of meditation is traditionally Asian, but it has been adopted throughout the world as a helpful tool for mental health. The spread of various foods, dishes and ingredients is also a form of cultural appreciation. When talking about cultural appropriation, people generally aren't talking about this. This is seen as a positive development.

However, cultural appropriation happens when a part of a culture is crudely mimicked without fully understanding it. For example, wearing a native american costume to a Halloween party. Oftentimes, these costumes mix and match various different pieces of clothing from different groups for what looks 'most Indian', so they are not even in any way authentic, and they are worn in order to 'look funny'. After all, that's why people wear costumes to Halloween parties. By doing that, you are making fun of a culture by not trying to understand it. That's cultural appropriation, and it's harmful because it keeps alive certain stereotypes that prohibit us from understanding other cultures complexly. When we think of native Americans, we often think of ululating horsemen wearing war bonnets, while all those practices were not at all common among even the plains tribes where they originate from. If we want to actually learn about these cultures, and practice cultural appreciation, we first need to let go of cultural appropriation, because it stops us from seeing these cultures as more than costumes.

I've never seen this line of reasoning when people use symbols and habits of, say, Greek, Roman (it's probably easier to list countries whose public building architecture and interior decoration aren't inspired by European Antiquitiy in one way or another than those who are), Anglo-American or in general European cultural origin.
When Lebanese, Philippino or Nigerian youths make their own hip hop music, or when football is played in the streets of Brazil and India, do people put a lot of thought into "understanding American/British" culture?
I seriously doubt it.

What you are mentioning is cultural assimilation, not cultural appropriation. The reason European culture is so dominant in the world is because Europe used to control vast amounts of territory all across the world, and Rome controlled vast amounts of Europe, and Rome was culturally influenced by Greeks.

When people make their own hip-hop or play football, that is cultural appreciation, since they are following the exact same rules as anyone else. It's not about understanding the whole culture, and nowhere did I claim that, but it's about understanding the thing you are participating in. And those youths understand hip-hop, and they understand football.

[Baltenstein]

What you are mentioning is cultural assimilation, not cultural appropriation. The reason European culture is so dominant in the world is because Europe used to control vast amounts of territory all across the world, and Rome controlled vast amounts of Europe, and Rome was culturally influenced by Greeks.

Your argument can be summed up as "people use Greco-Roman architecture because it's well-known and recognizable". Why they can't also - also well-known and recognizable - Indian or Japanese dresses or whatever is not adressed at all.

When people make their own hip-hop or play football, that is cultural appreciation, since they are following the exact same rules as anyone else. It's not about understanding the whole culture, and nowhere did I claim that, but it's about understanding the thing you are participating in. And those youths understand hip-hop, and they understand football.

I seriously frikking doubt a Lebanese or Brazilian youth understands hip-hop and/or football it the context of its original cultural origin (which is the goalposts you set for Halloween costumes) anymore than a guy running around as Indian Chieftain understands Indian dress customs. And "following the exact same rules as anyone else"? First, that's not even true (unless you are convinced that Lebanese Hip Hop artists regularly examinate their music to make sure it doesn't deviate from the hip-hop music anywhere else in the world), and even if it were true, how is that an argument? You could just as well say that Indian Carneval costumes follow "the same rules" everywhere because they all look largely the same.
Anyways, in all of these cases, the originally foreign culture is used for one's own entertainment. Which in all cases is completely fine.

[New Udonia]

Cultural appropriation is the anti-thesis of cultural segregation. I am a fully fledged supporter of cultural "appropriation", I am sorry that most would love to see a return to divided water fountains and restrooms. Also, while we are on the topic of cultures "stealing" from each other...

Only Asians and Europeans can wear pants.
Only Mediterraneans, Middle Easterners, and Asians can use math.
Only Mexicans can eat corn.

[The Archregimancy]

I mean, I don't think white people should just make blue Grass and classical music for the rest of eternity, but I also want to puke whenever the latest hip-hop slang comes out of the mouths of white pop stars like Katy Perry and Ariana Grande.

Why do you hate Elvis?

Elvis is everywhere, man!
He's in everything.
He's in everybody...
Elvis is in your jeans.
He's in your cheeseburgers
Elvis is in Nutty Buddies!
Elvis is in your mom!
He's in everybody.
He's in the young, the old,
The fat, the skinny,
The white, the black
The brown and the blue
People got Elvis in 'em too
Elvis is in everybody out there.
Everybody's got Elvis in them!

[Dresderstan]

I mean, I don't think white people should just make blue Grass and classical music for the rest of eternity, but I also want to puke whenever the latest hip-hop slang comes out of the mouths of white pop stars like Katy Perry and Ariana Grande.

Why do you hate Elvis?

Elvis is everywhere, man!
He's in everything.
He's in everybody...
Elvis is in your jeans.
He's in your cheeseburgers
Elvis is in Nutty Buddies!
Elvis is in your mom!
He's in everybody.
He's in the young, the old,
The fat, the skinny,
The white, the black
The brown and the blue
People got Elvis in 'em too
Elvis is in everybody out there.
Everybody's got Elvis in them!

I don't hate Elvis, I didn't even explicitly say that I do hate him.

[Page]

If I had a penny for every false equivalence on NSG I'd have a private jet by now.

[The Archregimancy]

I don't hate Elvis, I didn't even explicitly say that I do hate him.

<Sigh>

It always ruins a moment of humour when you have to explain it.

You wrote: "I also want to puke whenever the latest hip-hop slang comes out of the mouths of white pop stars like Katy Perry and Ariana Grande".

If we retrospectively apply the same standard to the 1950s, when Elvis rose to fame on the basis of making black music acceptable to a mainstream white audience (acknowledging his own genuine talents), then you also presumably hate Elvis.