Nazi Germany vs Modern Poland

[Infected Mushroom]

Please consider the following hypothetical scenario:

Nazi Germany invades Poland in 1939 but there is a twist. This is modern Poland.

Poland isn't 1939 Poland... its suddenly replaced magically by 2019 Poland with 2019 Polish military forces, technology, economic production and so forth with the 2019 Polish population.

Please consider two rounds of this:

Round 1:
Nazi Germany (and nearby Axis allies) vs Modern Poland; Poland has no allies or aid at all

Round 2:
Nazi Germany + Soviet Union + nearby Axis allies vs Modern Poland (in this Round Poland DOES receive economic, but no military aid from the Western Allies)

Please offer your opinion on the outcomes of Round 1 and Round 2 and justify/support your opinion.

Note that in Round 1, it is assumed that the Soviet Union and all Western Allies stay out of the war. It's also assumed in both rounds that no country will enter the war directly to fight with Poland. Remember that in the 1930s Germany has 80 million people while 2019 Poland has some 30-40 million; however, Poland has modern weapons (albeit it starts with a small army, what it has fielded and ready today).

Round 1 Poland will win. Poland will surprise Germany with modern weapons and can hold on long enough for more jet fighters, tanks, and artillery to arrive and win the day. Poland will counter attack and march into Berlin with overwhelming firepower.

Round 2 After a very long and bitter war the Soviets and Germany will win through sheer numbers.

[Conserative Morality]

Round 1: Poland wins

Round 2: Poland wins

Let me throw something at you: MBTs of the modern era wipe the floor with MBTs from 30-40 years ago, to the tune of 10-1 kill loss ratios, if not more. What makes you think that Polish Leopards'd be anything less than invincible against early Nazi and Soviet tanks? Air power? Fucking communications systems and motorized transport?

[Infected Mushroom]

Round 1: Poland wins

Round 2: Poland wins

Let me throw something at you: MBTs of the modern era wipe the floor with MBTs from 30-40 years ago, to the tune of 10-1 kill loss ratios, if not more. What makes you think that Polish Leopards'd be anything less than invincible against early Nazi and Soviet tanks? Air power? Fucking communications systems and motorized transport?

Safe to say the Nazis will be in for a WTF moment when they see the power and glory of modern Poland

[LiberNovusAmericae]

Modern technology means that the Nazis are fucked, which is not a bad thing.

[Infected Mushroom]

Modern technology means that the Nazis are fucked, which is not a bad thing.

What about with the Soviets?

[LiberNovusAmericae]

Modern technology means that the Nazis are fucked, which is not a bad thing.

What about with the Soviets?

They'll get fucked even harder with sheer numbers.

[Infected Mushroom]

What about with the Soviets?

They'll get fucked even harder with sheer numbers.

eh?

I meant the Soviets on the team of the Germans as in OTL

[LiberNovusAmericae]

[Dumb Statement Redacted]

[Conserative Morality]

eh?

I meant the Soviets on the team of the Germans as in OTL

Oh...
Then Poland would lose. The Soviets can just send wave after wave to the meat grinder.

Remind me how well that worked against the much more poorly equipped Finns in the Winter War?

[Digital Planets]

This is a really bad thread, but I'm gonna say Ethiopia wins this one.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

[Dumb Statement Redacted]

[Torrocca]

Poland destroys in both rounds. It's literally no contest whatsoever.

In the seventy or so odd years since 1939, we've seen the creation, development, or improvement of:

- Night-Vision equipment
- Thermal-Vision equipment
- Assault Rifles
- MBTs with composite reactive armor
- Radar
- Radios
- Missiles
- Wire-Guided Missiles
- Fire-and-Forget lock-on Missiles
- Bullet-Resistant/Proof Body Armor
- Jet Aircraft
- Helicopters
- Satellites
- Jet Aircraft
- Strategic, Operational, and Tactical doctrines that were learned from experiences gained from World War Two
- Encryption and Decryption
- the Internet
- Space Travel
- Jet Aircraft
- ... And more

Even if Poland only brought to bear its air force, it'd be an absurdly ridiculous massacre. 108 combat aircraft (which is what the Polish Air Force's combat inventory currently consists of) from today can easily not only wipe the floor with any aircraft the Nazis or Soviets could even dare to hope to field, but they'd absolutely annihilate anything and everything on the ground. It'd be a turkey shoot so insanely bad that it's likely the casualties would be in the millions for the Nazis and Soviets and next to none for the Poles. Hell, the Poles wouldn't even have to bother risking any actual ground engagements; anything that managed to break through in force could be readily mopped up by small units of Polish soldiers and vehicles. They have speed and mobility with their tanks and APCs, and they have the ability to maintain an almost real-time view of the battlefield for their command structure thanks to practically every unit being equipped with radios. They have absolute control of when, where, and how ground combat will occur because of this and the fact that they can see the enemy with complete visibility throughout all 24 hours of a day. Neither the Nazis nor the Soviets would stand an inkling of a chance at nightfall; it'd be an insane massacre.

The Poles take both rounds, no contest.

[Neu Leonstein]

This is not even remotely a serious question.

Germany in 1939 wasn't some sort of miracle power. Its army moved on foot and did its logistics with horses. Its 'main battle tanks' were Panzer I's, and II's if you're lucky (the others just weren't around in numbers). The former didn't have an actual cannon, just machine guns. Its infantry fought with bolt action rifles, and the vast majority had little to no experience with mechanised anythings (meaning they were just as susceptible to breaking as Polish or French infantry were when confronted with mechanised attacks).

And the Red Army was worse! Because aside from being even more poorly equipped, they also didn't have the doctrine, training or systems to make use of what technology they did have.

Meanwhile, Poland in 2019 is one of the more serious militaries on the continent, equipped with modern NATO-standard stuff. Imagine a Bf-109 trying to shoot down an F-16. It's just not going to happen. So what you get is Gulf War highway of death type destruction, before any serious engagement even starts. Numbers of soldiers don't matter in this context, because any thinking German or Russian soldier would abandon the campaign a couple of days in.

[American Pere Housh]

Poland wins both rounds against both the Nazis and Soviets. Leopard 2 MBT would rip apart any armor the Germans and Russians throw at them with its 120 mm main gun. The F-16 and Mig-29 would easily out manuver any German or Soviet fighter with their greater speed and can shoot down the fighters, bombers, and transport aircraft from long range with anti-air missiles both on the ground and in the air.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

Poland destroys in both rounds. It's literally no contest whatsoever.

In the seventy or so odd years since 1939, we've seen the creation, development, or improvement of:

- Night-Vision equipment
- Thermal-Vision equipment
- Assault Rifles
- MBTs with composite reactive armor
- Radar
- Radios
- Missiles
- Wire-Guided Missiles
- Fire-and-Forget lock-on Missiles
- Bullet-Resistant/Proof Body Armor
- Jet Aircraft
- Helicopters
- Satellites
- Jet Aircraft
- Strategic, Operational, and Tactical doctrines that were learned from experiences gained from World War Two
- Encryption and Decryption
- the Internet
- Space Travel
- Jet Aircraft
- ... And more

Even if Poland only brought to bear its air force, it'd be an absurdly ridiculous massacre. 108 combat aircraft (which is what the Polish Air Force's combat inventory currently consists of) from today can easily not only wipe the floor with any aircraft the Nazis or Soviets could even dare to hope to field, but they'd absolutely annihilate anything and everything on the ground. It'd be a turkey shoot so insanely bad that it's likely the casualties would be in the millions for the Nazis and Soviets and next to none for the Poles. Hell, the Poles wouldn't even have to bother risking any actual ground engagements; anything that managed to break through in force could be readily mopped up by small units of Polish soldiers and vehicles. They have speed and mobility with their tanks and APCs, and they have the ability to maintain an almost real-time view of the battlefield for their command structure thanks to practically every unit being equipped with radios. They have absolute control of when, where, and how ground combat will occur because of this and the fact that they can see the enemy with complete visibility throughout all 24 hours of a day. Neither the Nazis nor the Soviets would stand an inkling of a chance at nightfall; it'd be an insane massacre.

The Poles take both rounds, no contest.

When I thought that Poland would lose round two, I definitely wasn't thinking properly.

[Torrocca]

Poland destroys in both rounds. It's literally no contest whatsoever.

In the seventy or so odd years since 1939, we've seen the creation, development, or improvement of:

- Night-Vision equipment
- Thermal-Vision equipment
- Assault Rifles
- MBTs with composite reactive armor
- Radar
- Radios
- Missiles
- Wire-Guided Missiles
- Fire-and-Forget lock-on Missiles
- Bullet-Resistant/Proof Body Armor
- Jet Aircraft
- Helicopters
- Satellites
- Jet Aircraft
- Strategic, Operational, and Tactical doctrines that were learned from experiences gained from World War Two
- Encryption and Decryption
- the Internet
- Space Travel
- Jet Aircraft
- ... And more

Even if Poland only brought to bear its air force, it'd be an absurdly ridiculous massacre. 108 combat aircraft (which is what the Polish Air Force's combat inventory currently consists of) from today can easily not only wipe the floor with any aircraft the Nazis or Soviets could even dare to hope to field, but they'd absolutely annihilate anything and everything on the ground. It'd be a turkey shoot so insanely bad that it's likely the casualties would be in the millions for the Nazis and Soviets and next to none for the Poles. Hell, the Poles wouldn't even have to bother risking any actual ground engagements; anything that managed to break through in force could be readily mopped up by small units of Polish soldiers and vehicles. They have speed and mobility with their tanks and APCs, and they have the ability to maintain an almost real-time view of the battlefield for their command structure thanks to practically every unit being equipped with radios. They have absolute control of when, where, and how ground combat will occur because of this and the fact that they can see the enemy with complete visibility throughout all 24 hours of a day. Neither the Nazis nor the Soviets would stand an inkling of a chance at nightfall; it'd be an insane massacre.

The Poles take both rounds, no contest.

When I thought that Poland would lose round two, I definitely wasn't thinking properly.

Yeah, no, Poland will absolutely obliterate both of them.

They have a reserve manpower pool of some 15 million people to call on, if it's needed, considering right now their military is only about 115,000 strong, which is the only concerning weak point I can find. But they have the Nazis and the Soviets absolutely fucked by that 70-year time gap in technology, it's no contest.

[Risottia]

Round 1: War ends in two hours as the modern Poles happily surrender and welcome the Herrenvolk that will join them against immigrants, leftists , muslims, Jews and Russians... Especially the Russians. The Sanazation Commonwealth is formed.
Round 2: Stalemate as the Poles jump at Russia, forgetting the Germans completely. The Germans capture Warsaw in four days but wonder at the complete lack of any Pole aged 3-80. In the same moment, all Poles aged 3-80 are storming through Russia towards Moscow on their modern tanks, but get stuck in Belarus because they ran out of fuel. Formation of New Poland, some 500 km east of the former, while Germany gets stoned on Polish wodka.

[Neu Leonstein]

-snip-

Fair point.

But I think the Germans' insistence that wealthy Polish people give up their property would make the Polish leadership forget other ideological overlaps. Ain't nobody gonna touch my nephew-in-law's Cayman Island trust's paper mill empire that just got the contract to supply all government institutions!

[Infected Mushroom]

Poland destroys in both rounds. It's literally no contest whatsoever.

In the seventy or so odd years since 1939, we've seen the creation, development, or improvement of:

- Night-Vision equipment
- Thermal-Vision equipment
- Assault Rifles
- MBTs with composite reactive armor
- Radar
- Radios
- Missiles
- Wire-Guided Missiles
- Fire-and-Forget lock-on Missiles
- Bullet-Resistant/Proof Body Armor
- Jet Aircraft
- Helicopters
- Satellites
- Jet Aircraft
- Strategic, Operational, and Tactical doctrines that were learned from experiences gained from World War Two
- Encryption and Decryption
- the Internet
- Space Travel
- Jet Aircraft
- ... And more

Even if Poland only brought to bear its air force, it'd be an absurdly ridiculous massacre. 108 combat aircraft (which is what the Polish Air Force's combat inventory currently consists of) from today can easily not only wipe the floor with any aircraft the Nazis or Soviets could even dare to hope to field, but they'd absolutely annihilate anything and everything on the ground. It'd be a turkey shoot so insanely bad that it's likely the casualties would be in the millions for the Nazis and Soviets and next to none for the Poles. Hell, the Poles wouldn't even have to bother risking any actual ground engagements; anything that managed to break through in force could be readily mopped up by small units of Polish soldiers and vehicles. They have speed and mobility with their tanks and APCs, and they have the ability to maintain an almost real-time view of the battlefield for their command structure thanks to practically every unit being equipped with radios. They have absolute control of when, where, and how ground combat will occur because of this and the fact that they can see the enemy with complete visibility throughout all 24 hours of a day. Neither the Nazis nor the Soviets would stand an inkling of a chance at nightfall; it'd be an insane massacre.

The Poles take both rounds, no contest.

The reason I don't think it's NECESSARILY (could be though) a total stomp is because modern militaries aren't very war-prepared or well-supplied.

To my understanding, most modern militaries (aside from actual military powers like USA and Russia) are designed to fight as part of coalitions or may be more optimised for peace-keeping, limited defensive operations etc

Sure Poland has modern jet fighters, tanks, artillery, and so forth but how battle ready is it to go? How much ammunition do they have?

How long can they keep firing for until they run out of ammo, supplies etc? Modern weapons re very resource-extensive in terms of costs.

Poland isn't exactly, ready to go to war right now. They would need time to hold off and set up. During this time, MAYBE the WWII armies could do some irreparable damage or capture some very key locations.

Isn't Poland a resource-poor country?

[Woodfiredpizzas]

Two of the worst socialist nations vs a modern capitalist one? Of course Poland is going to push their shit in. They get air superiority in hours, ground superiority not long after, all while Berlin and Moscow get levelled.

[Torrocca]

Poland destroys in both rounds. It's literally no contest whatsoever.

In the seventy or so odd years since 1939, we've seen the creation, development, or improvement of:

- Night-Vision equipment
- Thermal-Vision equipment
- Assault Rifles
- MBTs with composite reactive armor
- Radar
- Radios
- Missiles
- Wire-Guided Missiles
- Fire-and-Forget lock-on Missiles
- Bullet-Resistant/Proof Body Armor
- Jet Aircraft
- Helicopters
- Satellites
- Jet Aircraft
- Strategic, Operational, and Tactical doctrines that were learned from experiences gained from World War Two
- Encryption and Decryption
- the Internet
- Space Travel
- Jet Aircraft
- ... And more

Even if Poland only brought to bear its air force, it'd be an absurdly ridiculous massacre. 108 combat aircraft (which is what the Polish Air Force's combat inventory currently consists of) from today can easily not only wipe the floor with any aircraft the Nazis or Soviets could even dare to hope to field, but they'd absolutely annihilate anything and everything on the ground. It'd be a turkey shoot so insanely bad that it's likely the casualties would be in the millions for the Nazis and Soviets and next to none for the Poles. Hell, the Poles wouldn't even have to bother risking any actual ground engagements; anything that managed to break through in force could be readily mopped up by small units of Polish soldiers and vehicles. They have speed and mobility with their tanks and APCs, and they have the ability to maintain an almost real-time view of the battlefield for their command structure thanks to practically every unit being equipped with radios. They have absolute control of when, where, and how ground combat will occur because of this and the fact that they can see the enemy with complete visibility throughout all 24 hours of a day. Neither the Nazis nor the Soviets would stand an inkling of a chance at nightfall; it'd be an insane massacre.

The Poles take both rounds, no contest.

The reason I don't think it's NECESSARILY (could be though) a total stomp is because modern militaries aren't very war-prepared or well-supplied.

To my understanding, most modern militaries (aside from actual military powers like USA and Russia) are designed to fight as part of coalitions or may be more optimised for peace-keeping, limited defensive operations etc

Sure Poland has modern jet fighters, tanks, artillery, and so forth but how battle ready is it to go? How much ammunition do they have?

How long can they keep firing for until they run out of ammo, supplies etc? Modern weapons re very resource-extensive in terms of costs.

Poland isn't exactly, ready to go to war right now. They would need time to hold off and set up. During this time, MAYBE the WWII armies could do some irreparable damage or capture some very key locations.

Isn't Poland a resource-poor country?

Poland has quite literally been revamping its military for the past few years ever since Russia started pushing into Ukraine.

In any case, even if they were on a low amount of supplies, they could easily curbstomp both the Nazis and Soviets with what they have until more could be produced, simply because of the insanity of the technological disparity.

This whole scenario is like determining the outcome of hitting a 1-week-old baby with a sledgehammer versus a 1-month-old baby with a sledgehammer. The end result's still gonna be the same, it's just that one will be slightly messier.

Two of the worst socialist nations vs a modern capitalist one? Of course Poland is going to push their shit in. They get air superiority in hours, ground superiority not long after, all while Berlin and Moscow get levelled.

Nazi Germany wasn't Socialist, chief.

[Woodfiredpizzas]

The reason I don't think it's NECESSARILY (could be though) a total stomp is because modern militaries aren't very war-prepared or well-supplied.

To my understanding, most modern militaries (aside from actual military powers like USA and Russia) are designed to fight as part of coalitions or may be more optimised for peace-keeping, limited defensive operations etc

Sure Poland has modern jet fighters, tanks, artillery, and so forth but how battle ready is it to go? How much ammunition do they have?

How long can they keep firing for until they run out of ammo, supplies etc? Modern weapons re very resource-extensive in terms of costs.

Poland isn't exactly, ready to go to war right now. They would need time to hold off and set up. During this time, MAYBE the WWII armies could do some irreparable damage or capture some very key locations.

Isn't Poland a resource-poor country?

Poland has quite literally been revamping its military for the past few years ever since Russia started pushing into Ukraine.

In any case, even if they were on a low amount of supplies, they could easily curbstomp both the Nazis and Soviets with what they have until more could be produced, simply because of the insanity of the technological disparity.

This whole scenario is like determining the outcome of hitting a 1-week-old baby with a sledgehammer versus a 1-month-old baby with a sledgehammer. The end result's still gonna be the same, it's just that one will be slightly messier.

Two of the worst socialist nations vs a modern capitalist one? Of course Poland is going to push their shit in. They get air superiority in hours, ground superiority not long after, all while Berlin and Moscow get levelled.

Nazi Germany wasn't Socialist, chief.

Nazi germany is the poster-nation of socialism, buddy.

[Torrocca]

Poland has quite literally been revamping its military for the past few years ever since Russia started pushing into Ukraine.

In any case, even if they were on a low amount of supplies, they could easily curbstomp both the Nazis and Soviets with what they have until more could be produced, simply because of the insanity of the technological disparity.

This whole scenario is like determining the outcome of hitting a 1-week-old baby with a sledgehammer versus a 1-month-old baby with a sledgehammer. The end result's still gonna be the same, it's just that one will be slightly messier.



Nazi Germany wasn't Socialist, chief.

Nazi germany is the poster-nation of socialism, buddy.

And the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is the most democratic place on Earth. It's in the name!

[Neanderthaland]

Modern technology means that the Nazis are fucked, which is not a bad thing.

What about with the Soviets?

One hopes they would see the futility of the war when the Pols effortlessly overwhelmed Soviet airspace and blew up all of their rail lines rendering offense impossible. And maybe the Kremlin too, why not?

[The Greater Ohio Valley]

Poland of 2019 would probably single handedly win World War 2 in Europe in 1939.

Polish Leopard 2s, PT-91s and T-72s would eat German Panzer IIs and Panzer IIIs for lunch.
Polish F-16s and MiG-29s would absolutely wipe for the floor with the entire Luftwaffe.
Poland’s two Oliver Hazard Perry frigates alone could probably sink the entire German surface fleet with one hand tied behind their back, and Polish subs would silently Sam Fisher every last U-boat before they even knew what hit them.