A Power Struggle Hypothetical

[Infected Mushroom]

Please consider the following hypothetical:

You are a powerful military commander in the king’s army.

The king dies of a mysterious illness. His teenage son, Fritz II, ascends to the throne but he is an irresponsible, childish, and overall idiotic king.

A young red-haired woman from a low-tier noble family, Felicie Delacroix, manipulates Fritz II and gets very close to him. Soon, she starts to indirectly run the kingdom.

You are sent off to fight in some pointless war far away so you cannot interfere. During this time, Felicie convinces the King to give her lots of lands and titles. Felicie has the king appoint her the Hand of the King, the main second administrator of the kingdom; this is a move that upsets many lords because a woman has never held this office. After some lords protest this appointment, they removed from their positions and some are executed under trumped up charges.

Rumors start to spread that when the King comes of age, she will try to establish herself as queen through marriage (this scandalizes the other lords because of her low-tier noble background).

When you return, you find that many of your friends have been killed off. Felicie herself confronts you one day with several guards behind her and asks whether or not she can count on your absolute loyalty. You tell her that you are loyal to the kingdom and that you respect the office of the Hand of the King, she can count on your absolute loyalty. She seems satisfied and leaves.

As the king’s next birthday comes up, several lords decide its time for Miss Delacroix to go. After the king leaves on an extended hunting trip, the lords make their move.

They summon Felicie and you into a hall and accuse her of poisoning the previous king. For good measure they pin every possible case of poisoning within the last five years on her. They also accuse her of falsely wielding the king’s authority to have lots of innocent nobles murdered; there’s a list of over three dozen names of recently killed nobles.

Felicie is outraged (and scared) and denies all the charges. She says that she didn’t poison anyone and that the King died of a mysterious illness; she demands that they bring forth proof.

The lords ignore her request for proof and says that they are going to go forward with “emergency powers” to summarily execute her on the spot. The guards approach her.

Seeing that all the lords in the room are hostile to her and that the guards are with them, she turns around and asks you for help:

“I am the Hand of the King. I COMMAND you to protect me and get me out of here safely. DO IT NOW!”

Everyone looks at you.

She is technically correct in that she holds the position of the Hand of the King and you’re supposed to obey her commands. Also, some of the charges against her may be completely bogus although you’re fairly sure that at least a large number of them are probably true. There doesn’t seem to be any evidence and this is a pretty serious breach of procedure. You know that the guards are more loyal to you than to the lords in the room. You command a great deal of respect as commander of the army. They would obey you.

However, this is also a great opportunity to get rid of Felicie. You do not necessarily approve of her.

The other lords assumed that you would support their attempt to remove Delacroix because without her, you would, by your reputation as a great warrior, commander and administrator, be almost certain to be appointed the next Hand of the King. In fact, many of those lords had previously approached you and expressed regrets that you were not appointed Hand of the King. Most of those lords are also your friends and greatly respect you.

(Also, the royal army is an experimental army consisting in large part of troops loyal first and foremost to the local lords they serve. In times of war, it is expected that the local lords would supply additional soldiers from their regions under independent command)

Please assume that the king is sufficiently idiotic that when he comes back you can deal with him by telling him a decent story.

What do you do?

Please explain and justify.

For me, its very simple. The Hand of the King has issued a command and the lords are breaching the protocol, so I protect her until the king returns. It’s not my place as commander to meddle in politics.

[Valentine Z]

It's not going to be about the politics, so I am going to have to get rid of her, all things considered.

Someone as manipulative as her is dangerous and should not be the Hand of the King, or whatever else powers that she might be bestowed with.

So... yeah. Sorry, sweety, you can call this a coup, but I am going to let you descend down and fade into obscurity.

OFF WITH YA HEAD... or something, or rather. This sounds heartless coming from me, but hey, you have to consider the future ramifications. Think of what will happen if she gets more power or manipulates the current King to do whatever she asks her to do. Remember that the King is a little dumb, so this will work against your favor if she got away and condemn you.

[Heloin]

I arrest everyone in the room. Felicie poisoned the King and that can not go unpunished. The Lords are attempting a coup, and that can also not go unpunished. I declare myself Lord Protector and take over the kingdom.

[Purgatio]

This seems pretty easy, if I'm a powerful military commander and its certain I will win whichever side I pick, then I pick Delacroix. She clearly doesn't have a very large inner circle, and killing off all the lords who are opposing her will remove a substantial number of nobles with whom I'd have to share power and cooperate with if I picked them. If I pick Delacroix I wouldn't have to share power with a large and more dispersed number of persons.

Plus, if I pick the lords, power would remain decentralised amongst an unstable coalition of different noble houses, in contrast if they are all executed it will strike terror into all the other lords and nobles to fall in line, centralising all power in the hands of Delacroix and the monarchy. As a military commander of the central monarchical army this will also give me more power and influence than the alternative.

So the answer's pretty simple and straightforward, I execute all the accusing lords for high treason against the throne.

[Purgatio]

It's not going to be about the politics, so I am going to have to get rid of her, all things considered.

Someone as manipulative as her is dangerous and should not be the Hand of the King, or whatever else powers that she might be bestowed with.

So... yeah. Sorry, sweety, you can call this a coup, but I am going to let you descend down and fade into obscurity.

OFF WITH YA HEAD... or something, or rather. This sounds heartless coming from me, but hey, you have to consider the future ramifications. Think of what will happen if she gets more power or manipulates the current King to do whatever she asks her to do. Remember that the King is a little dumb, so this will work against your favor if she got away and condemn you.

Why? At least from the facts in the OP, she seems to be a pretty capable ruler. She's been able and shrewd enough to use her position to enrich her own personal wealth, plus her amount of influence over the King implies she's shrewd, cunning and Macchiavellian, all the traits you would want in a ruler of a despotic and undemocratic society to provide stability. And she has not hesitated to ruthlessly remove many people who were a threat to her power, hence she will continue providing peace and stability to the kingdom. She seems like a pretty capable ruler to me.

[Heloin]

It's not going to be about the politics, so I am going to have to get rid of her, all things considered.

Someone as manipulative as her is dangerous and should not be the Hand of the King, or whatever else powers that she might be bestowed with.

So... yeah. Sorry, sweety, you can call this a coup, but I am going to let you descend down and fade into obscurity.

OFF WITH YA HEAD... or something, or rather. This sounds heartless coming from me, but hey, you have to consider the future ramifications. Think of what will happen if she gets more power or manipulates the current King to do whatever she asks her to do. Remember that the King is a little dumb, so this will work against your favor if she got away and condemn you.

Why? At least from the facts in the OP, she seems to be a pretty capable ruler. She's been able and shrewd enough to use her position to enrich her own personal wealth, plus her amount of influence over the King implies she's shrewd, cunning and Macchiavellian, all the traits you would want in a ruler of a despotic and undemocratic society to provide stability. And she has not hesitated to ruthlessly remove many people who were a threat to her power, hence she will continue providing peace and stability to the kingdom. She seems like a pretty capable ruler to me.

Which is why you kill them all off. The lords are too gung-ho and will probably start fighting each other once she's out of the way, she's too much of a ruthless manipulator and will kill you off once she realises that you're the greatest threat to her power.

[Valentine Z]

It's not going to be about the politics, so I am going to have to get rid of her, all things considered.

Someone as manipulative as her is dangerous and should not be the Hand of the King, or whatever else powers that she might be bestowed with.

So... yeah. Sorry, sweety, you can call this a coup, but I am going to let you descend down and fade into obscurity.

OFF WITH YA HEAD... or something, or rather. This sounds heartless coming from me, but hey, you have to consider the future ramifications. Think of what will happen if she gets more power or manipulates the current King to do whatever she asks her to do. Remember that the King is a little dumb, so this will work against your favor if she got away and condemn you.

Why? At least from the facts in the OP, she seems to be a pretty capable ruler. She's been able and shrewd enough to use her position to enrich her own personal wealth, plus her amount of influence over the King implies she's shrewd, cunning and Macchiavellian, all the traits you would want in a ruler of a despotic and undemocratic society to provide stability. And she has not hesitated to ruthlessly remove many people who were a threat to her power, hence she will continue providing peace and stability to the kingdom. She seems like a pretty capable ruler to me.

Yeah, all of that is good and well... provided that she is on your side all the time. I think this might be just my paranoia speaking, but I have a very strong feeling that one day, when she found someone else, or worse, a lover that happens to be a fighter, she will falsely accuse me of something or manipulate the others to overthrow me as a Commander. I don't mind handing over my power to someone more capable, but if she is going to pull some average fighter to become a Commander, just because "he's such a sweetie to me", then there's where it gets dangerous for me, and for many others.

A cunning fox like her is not the way to be.

[Infected Mushroom]

I arrest everyone in the room. Felicie poisoned the King and that can not go unpunished. The Lords are attempting a coup, and that can also not go unpunished. I declare myself Lord Protector and take over the kingdom.

wouldn't it be easier to back one side for now?

[Mzeusia]

I would have her executed because, if I was in this position at the time, I would have thought that the noble class cannot have such a low-born woman in such a position of power as it upsets the natural order of things. I also may have a duty to her, but the duty to my kingdom is stronger, and she must therefore go.

If I killed them all and took over the kingdom, that would put me on very unstable footing. I would have almost no support, and foreign powers might sense an opportunity to strike, and I'm not sure I could deal with an invasion with the lack of support.

[Arkhane]

I kill them all, then kill Felicie, then establish myself the new ruler and start a reign of terror. I can do better.

[Purgatio]

Why? At least from the facts in the OP, she seems to be a pretty capable ruler. She's been able and shrewd enough to use her position to enrich her own personal wealth, plus her amount of influence over the King implies she's shrewd, cunning and Macchiavellian, all the traits you would want in a ruler of a despotic and undemocratic society to provide stability. And she has not hesitated to ruthlessly remove many people who were a threat to her power, hence she will continue providing peace and stability to the kingdom. She seems like a pretty capable ruler to me.

Which is why you kill them all off. The lords are too gung-ho and will probably start fighting each other once she's out of the way, she's too much of a ruthless manipulator and will kill you off once she realises that you're the greatest threat to her power.

Exactly, the lords are only united by their hatred of her. Once they win the Kingdom is going to dismember into civil war, kill them all and the other lords will be terrified and all power will be centralised in the hands of Delacroix (and you, by extension, since you're commander in the royal army, not a feudal noble army)

[Heloin]

I arrest everyone in the room. Felicie poisoned the King and that can not go unpunished. The Lords are attempting a coup, and that can also not go unpunished. I declare myself Lord Protector and take over the kingdom.

wouldn't it be easier to back one side for now?

No, once this whole thing blows over which ever side I backed will realise I'm the greatest threat to their power. I have them both here and have both of them committing crimes which the current king would be to stupid to see contradicting each other.

[Heloin]

Which is why you kill them all off. The lords are too gung-ho and will probably start fighting each other once she's out of the way, she's too much of a ruthless manipulator and will kill you off once she realises that you're the greatest threat to her power.

Exactly, the lords are only united by their hatred of her. Once they win the Kingdom is going to dismember into civil war, kill them all and the other lords will be terrified and all power will be centralised in the hands of Delacroix (and you, by extension, since you're commander in the royal army, not a feudal noble army)

Well I'm saying kill her aswell

[Purgatio]

Why? At least from the facts in the OP, she seems to be a pretty capable ruler. She's been able and shrewd enough to use her position to enrich her own personal wealth, plus her amount of influence over the King implies she's shrewd, cunning and Macchiavellian, all the traits you would want in a ruler of a despotic and undemocratic society to provide stability. And she has not hesitated to ruthlessly remove many people who were a threat to her power, hence she will continue providing peace and stability to the kingdom. She seems like a pretty capable ruler to me.

Yeah, all of that is good and well... provided that she is on your side all the time. I think this might be just my paranoia speaking, but I have a very strong feeling that one day, when she found someone else, or worse, a lover that happens to be a fighter, she will falsely accuse me of something or manipulate the others to overthrow me as a Commander. I don't mind handing over my power to someone more capable, but if she is going to pull some average fighter to become a Commander, just because "he's such a sweetie to me", then there's where it gets dangerous for me, and for many others.

A cunning fox like her is not the way to be.

That's a risk you take either way. You side with the lords and there is a high risk of their unstable little coalition falling apart and civil war returning to the land, and as the commander of the royal army I doubt those lords with their own feudal holdings will look at you favourably. More likely they'll see you as a threat who served a useful purpose with Delacroix but is useless to them now.

In contrast, Delacroix is only one person. You can keep your eye on her, plus she's more likely to rely on you given you are basically her most powerful ally now and you are responsible for keeping her on the throne and terrorising the other lords into submission to her rule. Sure, she could go crazy and turn her back on you in future but that's a risk either way and I think the likelihood of her betraying you is far less than with the 'coalition of the lords'.

[Purgatio]

Exactly, the lords are only united by their hatred of her. Once they win the Kingdom is going to dismember into civil war, kill them all and the other lords will be terrified and all power will be centralised in the hands of Delacroix (and you, by extension, since you're commander in the royal army, not a feudal noble army)

Well I'm saying kill her aswell

Oh...that seems a little risky. You're not a noble at all (at least I didn't see that in the OP), if a lower-ranked noble like Delacroix is already attracting controversy a non-noble military commander is likely to be even more inflammatory. You are going to have a civil war on your hands pretty fast, especially since you've alienated anti-Delacroix and royalist factions in the country alike. You won't be 'supreme ruler' of this kingdom for very long.

At least with Delacroix as your ally you will have power through a woman who has already established herself as capable of governing and keeping herself in power. It's the safer bet.

[Lunas Legion]

Well, the solution is rather obvious. The lords are committing treason by staging a coup, therefore they should be arrested, charged with treason, placed on trial and have whatever sentence is determined carried out. The Hand of the King has been accused of an extremely large string of murders, albeit without evidence but with sufficient motive, and therefore should be arrested and tried for each of her supposed murders individually.

I am a military commander. My duty is to the law and honour first, the chain of command second.

[Infected Mushroom]

Exactly, the lords are only united by their hatred of her. Once they win the Kingdom is going to dismember into civil war, kill them all and the other lords will be terrified and all power will be centralised in the hands of Delacroix (and you, by extension, since you're commander in the royal army, not a feudal noble army)

Well I'm saying kill her aswell

There's an old proverb:

"If you establish a reputation as a mad dog, you will be treated as such. Taken out into the back and slaughtered for pig's feed."

[Valentine Z]

That's a risk you take either way. You side with the lords and there is a high risk of their unstable little coalition falling apart and civil war returning to the land, and as the commander of the royal army I doubt those lords with their own feudal holdings will look at you favourably. More likely they'll see you as a threat who served a useful purpose with Delacroix but is useless to them now.

In contrast, Delacroix is only one person. You can keep your eye on her, plus she's more likely to rely on you given you are basically her most powerful ally now and you are responsible for keeping her on the throne and terrorising the other lords into submission to her rule. Sure, she could go crazy and turn her back on you in future but that's a risk either way and I think the likelihood of her betraying you is far less than with the 'coalition of the lords'.

Hmm, so you are saying that I get or deal with the 'coalition of the lords' (good name, actually ), with the help of Delacroix, right? Then when she starts to get a little hostile towards you, that is when you do the same to her as well?

This... this actually makes more sense to me now that I've thought about it more. I mean, from the OP itself, I can't exactly tell whether Delacroix will betray or be loyal to me in a sudden twist of events (she loving me will be a bonus at this point), so... yeah, I am banking on the very fact that she is going to manipulate and do the same to me.

Still, right... get the lords first, then her... in the remote chance that she did the same to me and tried to get me off my Command.

[Andsed]

I arrest everyone in the room. Felicie poisoned the King and that can not go unpunished. The Lords are attempting a coup, and that can also not go unpunished. I declare myself Lord Protector and take over the kingdom.

Agreed fuck everyone in this room I have the army what’s you going to do about it?

[Valentine Z]

There's an old proverb:

"If you establish a reputation as a mad dog, you will be treated as such. Taken out into the back and slaughtered for pig's feed."

Proverb doesn't make sense here, to be honest. You are not seen as a mad dog... just a level-headed Commander who got into these scheme of things.

Though of course, it does make sense if you're referring to Delacroix as the mad dog.

[Mzeusia]

The lords might not be all out for themselves. We can't assume that.

[Free Arabian Nation]

I swear, one more hypothetical and I am questioning IM's humanity.

Anyways, I'd let the bastard die and then threaten a French Revolution: Cromwell style against the nobles

[Purgatio]

That's a risk you take either way. You side with the lords and there is a high risk of their unstable little coalition falling apart and civil war returning to the land, and as the commander of the royal army I doubt those lords with their own feudal holdings will look at you favourably. More likely they'll see you as a threat who served a useful purpose with Delacroix but is useless to them now.

In contrast, Delacroix is only one person. You can keep your eye on her, plus she's more likely to rely on you given you are basically her most powerful ally now and you are responsible for keeping her on the throne and terrorising the other lords into submission to her rule. Sure, she could go crazy and turn her back on you in future but that's a risk either way and I think the likelihood of her betraying you is far less than with the 'coalition of the lords'.

Hmm, so you are saying that I get or deal with the 'coalition of the lords' (good name, actually ), with the help of Delacroix, right? Then when she starts to get a little hostile towards you, that is when you do the same to her as well?

This... this actually makes more sense to me now that I've thought about it more. I mean, from the OP itself, I can't exactly tell whether Delacroix will betray or be loyal to me in a sudden twist of events (she loving me will be a bonus at this point), so... yeah, I am banking on the very fact that she is going to manipulate and do the same to me.

Still, right... get the lords first, then her... in the remote chance that she did the same to me and tried to get me off my Command.

Yeah that seems more prudent to me. The lords are clearly dangerous themselves if they are uppity enough to do this to the Hand of the King, best to get rid of them and deter any future attempted rebellions against the crown which you're gonna have to deal with as a royal commander. If you suspect Delacroix is acting or plotting against you in future you can always deal with her then, after all it's not like she has her own army (you are her army, after all). But until the point when she starts plotting I'm content to have my own sphere of power and authority under her regime as her most powerful supporter.

[Caracasus]

Ahh the old 'redheaded women are evil temptresses' trope and a bit of good ole classism too.

Joke's on you. I've been working with her in secret for years now.

[Infected Mushroom]

Alright... I see what the problem is here...

Please standby while I rework a little detail here