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UK Politics Thread IX: The Masses Against the Classes

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Who is your preferred Conservative Party leadership candidate?

Gove
5
4%
Hunt
11
9%
Javid
5
4%
Johnson
37
31%
Raab
11
9%
Stewart
50
42%
 
Total votes : 119

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Ostroeuropa
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Posts: 58552
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:37 am

So there's the thing over the 4 woman panel covering the England V Scotland game getting some traction.

Noting that none of the people criticizing it are pointing out one of the women is Hope Solo, domestic abuser, somewhat worsening the situation.

What's hers is hers and whats his is ours as usual. (Women get womens spaces, all other spaces must be divided equally.).

When confronted on it on good morning britain, comparing the all womens panel to the split gender panel on mens football, the response was;

He later referred to Rebekah Vardy’s tweet where she shared a picture of the ‘four pundits’ and asked, ‘what happened to equality?’ Piers said: ‘It’s not about being equal it’s about being just as unequal as the problem you’ve been shouting about for the last 100 years.’ Trying to shut him down, Susanna smirked: ‘Thank you, mansplaining women’s football to us.’


Pretty disgusting response too, demonstrating a good example of how feminism just causes women to gaslight men these days. You cannot deal with bad faith actors on their terms. The only response is to note they are bad faith actors and ignore them/exclude them from the discussion. When a feminist speaks, they should be marginalized.

Responses to Vardy basically have the same tone of hostility and derision, calling her stupid and ridiculous and saying she's got internalized misogyny and so on for asking where the male panelists were.

No actual justifications for the discrepancy beyond someone saying it's "Refreshing".

As Vardy noted, womens football deserves attention and support and this kind of exclusion of men ensures men will basically lose interest and it won't get that, demonstrating how feminist mentalities once again harm women. Doubtless this entire incident will disappear down the memory hole when it comes time to discuss why people don't like womens football as much and suddenly it'll be all patriarchies fault.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:44 am, edited 5 times in total.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Thermodolia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:42 am


It’s in hiding because it doesn’t want to be scraped
Male, Jewish, lives somewhere in AZ, Disabled US Military Veteran, Oorah!, I'm GAY!
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>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
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The New California Republic
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:49 am

Thermodolia wrote:
Duhon wrote:Where did that bloody bus go off to, again?

It’s in hiding because it doesn’t want to be scraped

The New California Republic wrote:
Liriena wrote:Where does Boris Johnson live?

I actually think he lives in the "EU £350 million a week" bus...
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
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They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
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Postby Vassenor » Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:01 am

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Thermodolia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:03 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:It’s in hiding because it doesn’t want to be scraped

The New California Republic wrote:
I actually think he lives in the "EU £350 million a week" bus...

Won’t someone think of that poor bus?! Living with that god awful thing must be horrible
Male, Jewish, lives somewhere in AZ, Disabled US Military Veteran, Oorah!, I'm GAY!
I'm agent #69 in the Gaystapo!
>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
>>Dumb Ideologies: Why not turn yourself into a penguin and build an igloo at the centre of the Earth?
Click for Da Funies

RIP Dya

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The New California Republic
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Posts: 35483
Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:08 am


In my lifetime I have seen the manufacturing sector de-diversify, and that results in magnified effects when one part of the sector goes through a downturn.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

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Dumb Ideologies
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Mother Knows Best State

Postby Dumb Ideologies » Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:09 am

Thermodolia wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:

Won’t someone think of that poor bus?! Living with that god awful thing must be horrible


I ship it with the Vengabus.
Are these "human rights" in the room with us right now?
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The New California Republic
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Posts: 35483
Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:10 am

Thermodolia wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:

Won’t someone think of that poor bus?! Living with that god awful thing must be horrible

It'll be a write-off after BoJo has been living in it for several years...
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

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Hurdergaryp
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Posts: 49447
Founded: Jul 10, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Hurdergaryp » Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:14 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Won’t someone think of that poor bus?! Living with that god awful thing must be horrible

It'll be a write-off after BoJo has been living in it for several years...

Still good enough to house several destitute proletarian families in the glorious neo-Victorian age to come.


“Everything under heaven is in utter chaos; the situation is excellent.”
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Novus America
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Ex-Nation

Postby Novus America » Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:20 am



What? Deindustrialization is bad?
Maybe should have though of that before religiously worshiping “free trade”.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. I support what is good for the country, which means I cannot support either party.

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Chan Island
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6824
Founded: Nov 26, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Chan Island » Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:39 am

Novus America wrote:


What? Deindustrialization is bad?
Maybe should have though of that before religiously worshiping “free trade”.


But hey, London, the South East and Tory donors are doing fine so I guess Brexit and the promise of free trade deals that threaten the very existence of the NHS is a go.
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=513597&p=39401766#p39401766
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

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Novus America
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Ex-Nation

Postby Novus America » Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:46 am

Chan Island wrote:
Novus America wrote:
What? Deindustrialization is bad?
Maybe should have though of that before religiously worshiping “free trade”.


But hey, London, the South East and Tory donors are doing fine so I guess Brexit and the promise of free trade deals that threaten the very existence of the NHS is a go.


Well the deindustrialization is much more than Brexit.
Stay in the EU you will be required to outsource everything to China.
Leave the EU and you will outsource everything to China anyways.
Enjoy.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. I support what is good for the country, which means I cannot support either party.

User avatar
Chan Island
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6824
Founded: Nov 26, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Chan Island » Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:55 am

Novus America wrote:
Chan Island wrote:
But hey, London, the South East and Tory donors are doing fine so I guess Brexit and the promise of free trade deals that threaten the very existence of the NHS is a go.


Well the deindustrialization is much more than Brexit.
Stay in the EU you will be required to outsource everything to China.
Leave the EU and you will outsource everything to China anyways.
Enjoy.


I'd argue that outsourcing to China is much less likely in the EU, considering the EU placed restrictions on steel (while genius David Cameron decided to veto that and then was all surprised when Port Talbot went to pot) and actually has the sort of economic might together to meaningfully oppose them.

And that the EU makes a big point of investing funds in poorer regions, so there is a chance that something might come out of it well sooner even if the outsourcing is inevitable.
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=513597&p=39401766#p39401766
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

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Novus America
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Posts: 38385
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Novus America » Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:21 am

Chan Island wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Well the deindustrialization is much more than Brexit.
Stay in the EU you will be required to outsource everything to China.
Leave the EU and you will outsource everything to China anyways.
Enjoy.


I'd argue that outsourcing to China is much less likely in the EU, considering the EU placed restrictions on steel (while genius David Cameron decided to veto that and then was all surprised when Port Talbot went to pot) and actually has the sort of economic might together to meaningfully oppose them.

And that the EU makes a big point of investing funds in poorer regions, so there is a chance that something might come out of it well sooner even if the outsourcing is inevitable.


Well have no doubts the EU leaders will sell your people down the river.
The EU is not going to stand up to the PRC to any real degree and will probably make a suicidal trade deal with the PRC They might make a few small pretensions of doing so but are committed to Chinese global domination in the name of “free trade” and globalism.
But yes as stupid, craven and corrupt the EU leaders are, your own might even be worse.

But you elect them anyways.
Either way you are screwed.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. I support what is good for the country, which means I cannot support either party.

User avatar
Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 58552
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:24 am

Novus America wrote:
Chan Island wrote:
I'd argue that outsourcing to China is much less likely in the EU, considering the EU placed restrictions on steel (while genius David Cameron decided to veto that and then was all surprised when Port Talbot went to pot) and actually has the sort of economic might together to meaningfully oppose them.

And that the EU makes a big point of investing funds in poorer regions, so there is a chance that something might come out of it well sooner even if the outsourcing is inevitable.


Well have no doubts the EU leaders will sell your people down the river.
The EU is not going to stand up to the PRC to any real degree and will probably make a suicidal trade deal with the PRC They might make a few small pretensions of doing so but are committed to Chinese global domination in the name of “free trade” and globalism.
But yes as stupid, craven and corrupt the EU leaders are, your own might even be worse.

But you elect them anyways.
Either way you are screwed.


The EU is actively engaged in a trade war with china over Africa mate, they're not fans of free trade with China and have been slowly applying pressure to them and trying to squeeze them out of foreign markets. By obtaining access to african materials, chinese goods will increase in price and become less viable, while those materials become cheaper for European markets to buy and them use to industrialize.

The EU is promising things like military assistance and so on alongside trade deals and education and all that to African countries, while China is more going for pure cash.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-45496655

Forcing Africa into a free trade zone with Europe means the two continents can then set the external rules of that free trade agreement, which will basically amount to excluding china. Moreover the rules of the free trade zone will mean that Africas labour standards, taxes, workers rights and so on, will have to match the EU.

A huge part of Chinas economy is based on extracting resources from east africa. Cut that off, and they'll have an economic crash. Africa has already agreed in principle to the free trade zone, and now it's a matter of working out the details.

Moreover, the high-end products Europe produces are perfect for an african market in the upcoming decades as more and more africans are uplifted out of poverty.

Sargon did a story on it where he noted that this appears to basically be another scramble for Africa and said he'd rather we just stay at home on our Island with our hobbies for once and not get involved in some vast Imperial project for at least one generation. (He noted that Junker explicitly says that the ability to project hard power is vital to this plans success.).
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:37 am, edited 8 times in total.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Novus America
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Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Novus America » Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:35 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Well have no doubts the EU leaders will sell your people down the river.
The EU is not going to stand up to the PRC to any real degree and will probably make a suicidal trade deal with the PRC They might make a few small pretensions of doing so but are committed to Chinese global domination in the name of “free trade” and globalism.
But yes as stupid, craven and corrupt the EU leaders are, your own might even be worse.

But you elect them anyways.
Either way you are screwed.


The EU is actively engaged in a trade war with china over Africa mate, they're not fans of free trade with China and have been slowly applying pressure to them and trying to squeeze them out of foreign markets. By obtaining access to african materials, chinese goods will increase in price and become less viable, while those materials become cheaper for European markets to buy and them use to industrialize.

The EU is promising things like military assistance and so on alongside trade deals and education and all that to African countries, while China is more going for pure cash.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-45496655

Forcing Africa into a free trade zone with Europe means the two continents can then set the external rules of that free trade agreement, which will basically amount to excluding china. Moreover the rules of the free trade zone will mean that Africas labour standards, taxes, workers rights and so on, will have to match the EU.

A huge part of Chinas economy is based on extracting resources from east africa. Cut that off, and they'll have an economic crash. Africa has already agreed in principle to the free trade zone, and now it's a matter of working out the details.


Well,
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.scmp.c ... ber-states
The EU leaders are already toppling.
China can and will buy the EU too.
They already got Italy.

The EU has a massive trade deficit with China.

If the EU actually would sign a trade agreement with Africa and cut out the PRC that would be awesome. But do you really think Junker’s idealism has a chance against Xi’s Machiavellian bribes?
Who do you think the leaders of Africa will choose?
They are not exactly a paragon of good governance.
Nearly all are corrupt as Hell.

You will both get belted and railroaded by Xi.
Actually stopping it would require a massive change in the policies and philosophies of world leaders, the complete destruction of globalism as currently practiced an its replacement with a system excluding the PRC completely.
Also leaders willing to make short term sacrifices for term gain and not being seduced by promises of loans they can never repay.
Last edited by Novus America on Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. I support what is good for the country, which means I cannot support either party.

User avatar
Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 58552
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:40 am

Novus America wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
The EU is actively engaged in a trade war with china over Africa mate, they're not fans of free trade with China and have been slowly applying pressure to them and trying to squeeze them out of foreign markets. By obtaining access to african materials, chinese goods will increase in price and become less viable, while those materials become cheaper for European markets to buy and them use to industrialize.

The EU is promising things like military assistance and so on alongside trade deals and education and all that to African countries, while China is more going for pure cash.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-45496655

Forcing Africa into a free trade zone with Europe means the two continents can then set the external rules of that free trade agreement, which will basically amount to excluding china. Moreover the rules of the free trade zone will mean that Africas labour standards, taxes, workers rights and so on, will have to match the EU.

A huge part of Chinas economy is based on extracting resources from east africa. Cut that off, and they'll have an economic crash. Africa has already agreed in principle to the free trade zone, and now it's a matter of working out the details.


Well,
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.scmp.c ... ber-states
The EU leaders are already toppling.
China can and will buy the EU too.
The EU has a massive trade deficit with China.

If the EU actually would sign a trade agreement with Africa and cut out the PRC that would be awesome. But do you really think Junker’s idealism has a chance against Xi’s Machiavellian bribes?
Who do you think the leaders of Africa will choose?
They are not exactly a paragon of good governance.
Nearly all are corrupt as Hell.


Junkers "Idealism" as you put it isn't nearly so idealistic as you might think, given that he believes the ability to project hard power over the continent is necessary for the plan to work. I'd wager it's more likely we'll see the EU get more and more fond of "Humanitarian interventions". This is one major reason Sargon wanted to leave the EU, and said he wants at least one generation where the UK isn't involved in some massive imperial project.

China currently cannot project hard power.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States
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Posts: 22006
Founded: Feb 20, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States » Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:40 am

Novus America wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
The EU is actively engaged in a trade war with china over Africa mate, they're not fans of free trade with China and have been slowly applying pressure to them and trying to squeeze them out of foreign markets. By obtaining access to african materials, chinese goods will increase in price and become less viable, while those materials become cheaper for European markets to buy and them use to industrialize.

The EU is promising things like military assistance and so on alongside trade deals and education and all that to African countries, while China is more going for pure cash.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-45496655

Forcing Africa into a free trade zone with Europe means the two continents can then set the external rules of that free trade agreement, which will basically amount to excluding china. Moreover the rules of the free trade zone will mean that Africas labour standards, taxes, workers rights and so on, will have to match the EU.

A huge part of Chinas economy is based on extracting resources from east africa. Cut that off, and they'll have an economic crash. Africa has already agreed in principle to the free trade zone, and now it's a matter of working out the details.


Well,
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.scmp.c ... ber-states
The EU leaders are already toppling.
China can and will buy the EU too.
The EU has a massive trade deficit with China.

If the EU actually would sign a trade agreement with Africa and cut out the PRC that would be awesome. But do you really think Junker’s idealism has a chance against Xi’s Machiavellian bribes?
Who do you think the leaders of Africa will choose?
They are not exactly a paragon of good governance.
Nearly all are corrupt as Hell.


"Italy's China expert is calling on EU to do something" means "EU leaders are already toppling"

Wow, how did you make that leap of logic?

Free trade, which the EU loves so much, requires parties to trade in good faith, in accordance with GATT 1994. It specifically does not mean 'lol, we are going to be overrun because free trade means surrendering'. Your interpretation of free trade is not what the EU is after.
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Chan Island
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6824
Founded: Nov 26, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Chan Island » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:15 am

Novus America wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
The EU is actively engaged in a trade war with china over Africa mate, they're not fans of free trade with China and have been slowly applying pressure to them and trying to squeeze them out of foreign markets. By obtaining access to african materials, chinese goods will increase in price and become less viable, while those materials become cheaper for European markets to buy and them use to industrialize.

The EU is promising things like military assistance and so on alongside trade deals and education and all that to African countries, while China is more going for pure cash.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-45496655

Forcing Africa into a free trade zone with Europe means the two continents can then set the external rules of that free trade agreement, which will basically amount to excluding china. Moreover the rules of the free trade zone will mean that Africas labour standards, taxes, workers rights and so on, will have to match the EU.

A huge part of Chinas economy is based on extracting resources from east africa. Cut that off, and they'll have an economic crash. Africa has already agreed in principle to the free trade zone, and now it's a matter of working out the details.


Well,
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.scmp.c ... ber-states
The EU leaders are already toppling.
China can and will buy the EU too.
They already got Italy.

The EU has a massive trade deficit with China.

If the EU actually would sign a trade agreement with Africa and cut out the PRC that would be awesome. But do you really think Junker’s idealism has a chance against Xi’s Machiavellian bribes?
Who do you think the leaders of Africa will choose?
They are not exactly a paragon of good governance.
Nearly all are corrupt as Hell.

You will both get belted and railroaded by Xi.
Actually stopping it would require a massive change in the policies and philosophies of world leaders, the complete destruction of globalism as currently practiced an its replacement with a system excluding the PRC completely.
Also leaders willing to make short term sacrifices for term gain and not being seduced by promises of loans they can never repay.


Oh there we have it. The American flag user is predicting the imminent collapse of the EU. Everybody drink.

Look mate, the nationalists have been telling us the EU is weak and going to die for decades now, and yet not only is the EU still here but it is a global trendsetter and still overwhelmingly popular. And this guy in the Italian government (a government by the way that is very Eurosceptic so something tells me he isn't thinking about the EU in a positive light anyway) saying the EU should trade more with China has very little bearing.

And it's funny how you're waxing lyrical about what African leaders will choose when many already have swayed to the EU's side. Certainly the populations have. China is immensely unpopular in East Africa (Kenya for example has expelled a number of Chinese companies and individuals). In a sense you're right however. All China has to offer is cash, for exploitation. No aid, no guarantee of a fair arbitration system, no protection- hell, not even any respect half the time.

But sure, you're right, the man who was a prime minister for 20 years and then head of the commission for 5 only has idealism on offer.
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=513597&p=39401766#p39401766
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

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Phoenicaea
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Ex-Nation

Postby Phoenicaea » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:37 am

^ ehm, no, china has not 'already bought italy', nor something as it. i suppose your dialogue is not so realistical.

you need straight, logical, assumptions when building a discourse. still, i agree there is contention for east africa trade route.

about the import export, italy agreement was mainly trade, it was a 'jar agreement', where you have to fill it after, through specific deals.

to name it, france has made a single agreement among many, in same tour visit, with china (airbus deliver), whose value was greater than the entire italy china aim.

this is to say the states struggle to have more asiatic import export, not less. while eu imposes standard for goods, and may impose tariffs.

most of things we use here, they have been done in china and southeast, and refined here, still not because of said agreements.

about countries siding, as far as i see, it paints the opposite. italy and greece were prudent about huwei thing, while france and germany were not.

personally i see italy, and greece, to be stronghold american side in front of others, while most other countries side china, which is nowadays the most influential state.
Last edited by Phoenicaea on Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:17 am, edited 6 times in total.

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Souseiseki
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Souseiseki » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:41 am

it's true. belusconi literally sold italy to china after a 3 week coke bender. they're threatening to pick the whole up and use it to kick japan if we don't let them take africa.
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Phoenicaea
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Postby Phoenicaea » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:44 am

^ it could be, who knows.

about below, you say it 'il presidente', while 'el presidente' could be spanish.
Last edited by Phoenicaea on Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Hurdergaryp
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Hurdergaryp » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:45 am

Souseiseki wrote:it's true. belusconi literally sold italy to china after a 3 week coke bender. they're threatening to pick the whole up and use it to kick japan if we don't let them take africa.

The coke shortages in Italy were quite catastrophic, because the whole supply went straight to el Presidente.


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North German Realm
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Postby North German Realm » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:50 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Well,
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.scmp.c ... ber-states
The EU leaders are already toppling.
China can and will buy the EU too.
The EU has a massive trade deficit with China.

If the EU actually would sign a trade agreement with Africa and cut out the PRC that would be awesome. But do you really think Junker’s idealism has a chance against Xi’s Machiavellian bribes?
Who do you think the leaders of Africa will choose?
They are not exactly a paragon of good governance.
Nearly all are corrupt as Hell.


Junkers "Idealism" as you put it isn't nearly so idealistic as you might think, given that he believes the ability to project hard power over the continent is necessary for the plan to work. I'd wager it's more likely we'll see the EU get more and more fond of "Humanitarian interventions". This is one major reason Sargon wanted to leave the EU, and said he wants at least one generation where the UK isn't involved in some massive imperial project.

China currently cannot project hard power.

This explains why Europe is looking into getting itself a viable military outside of America's influence, I suppose. Honestly, the EU as a power bloc fighting against Russia, America, and China isn't a bad idea in my opinion; even if that "power bloc" becomes more than economic.
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Greater vakolicci haven
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Ex-Nation

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:52 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Well,
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.scmp.c ... ber-states
The EU leaders are already toppling.
China can and will buy the EU too.
The EU has a massive trade deficit with China.

If the EU actually would sign a trade agreement with Africa and cut out the PRC that would be awesome. But do you really think Junker’s idealism has a chance against Xi’s Machiavellian bribes?
Who do you think the leaders of Africa will choose?
They are not exactly a paragon of good governance.
Nearly all are corrupt as Hell.


Junkers "Idealism" as you put it isn't nearly so idealistic as you might think, given that he believes the ability to project hard power over the continent is necessary for the plan to work. I'd wager it's more likely we'll see the EU get more and more fond of "Humanitarian interventions". This is one major reason Sargon wanted to leave the EU, and said he wants at least one generation where the UK isn't involved in some massive imperial project.

China currently cannot project hard power.

A lot of these huminatarian interventions end up just making the countries 'benefitting' from them even more dependant on them. Until they actually start building infrastructure as part of the package, rather than handing out aid, they'll be essentially worthless in the long term.
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