UK Politics Thread IX: The Masses Against the Classes

[Hirota]

Remain vs Leave was, like most conflicts in British history, between the rich and the also rich. Most will have campaigned and voted for remain, since that result would have greater direct benefits to them, but a significant minority backed Leave, some due to deeply held personal bigotry, and some because they'd worked out that they could profit from it, and provided the funding to make it happen.

Meanwhile, the demographics that voted leave in significant numbers - specifically lower income "working class" - get ignored, or sneeringly derided as turkeys voting for Christmas.

[Bombadil]

Daily Mail owners, live in tax exiles, same with Telegraph, Brexit mostly funded by 5 tax exiles and headed by a former investment banker. The Sun and The Times run by an anti-EU person who said..

"I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. 'That’s easy,' he replied. 'When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.'"

It's not about the average, it's about those with the power and means to influence.

Rather like pointing out the small number of Trotskyite entryists who now have a solid grip over the Labour leadership: maybe 10-15 people, with an influence far exceeding their number. Should we look at them with an equal suspicion?

Yes, though for very different reasons. I'm certainly no fan of Corbyn and his gang. Derek Hatton is a prime example of the hypocrisy and venality of that lot. Alas many don't remember the nastiness of Militant and their ilk.

Or, perhaps, understand that there will always be important people who have an influence all out of proportion with their number i.e. great men.

The difference is that the good of the nation was generally aligned with the good of great men, in a post national economic world then fuck the nation.

In saying this, you are making, in essence, a screed against democracy: that the people are so easily fooled that they can't be trusted to make decisions for themselves, while at the same time condemning governance by élite—which seems quite contradictory. You want a government conducted by people (a wise and benevolent minority) you agree with, but that is contrite and a doesn't deserve the sophistry you dress it in.

What I'm saying is we've generally always had governance of the elite but that the elite are no longer aligned with the interests of a nation they're still vested in controlling. A nation is where you park your money not where you live and die.

[Philjia]

Remain vs Leave was, like most conflicts in British history, between the rich and the also rich. Most will have campaigned and voted for remain, since that result would have greater direct benefits to them, but a significant minority backed Leave, some due to deeply held personal bigotry, and some because they'd worked out that they could profit from it, and provided the funding to make it happen.

Meanwhile, the demographics that voted leave in significant numbers - specifically lower income "working class" - get ignored, or sneeringly derided as turkeys voting for Christmas.

It's easy to slip into blaming the working classes for voting for an obviously stupid policy peddled by hatemongers and liars, but several decades of being fucked over by Westminster was always going to harden voters hearts against them.

[Senegalboy]

Remain vs Leave was, like most conflicts in British history, between the rich and the also rich. Most will have campaigned and voted for remain, since that result would have greater direct benefits to them, but a significant minority backed Leave, some due to deeply held personal bigotry, and some because they'd worked out that they could profit from it, and provided the funding to make it happen.

Meanwhile, the demographics that voted leave in significant numbers - specifically lower income "working class" - get ignored, or sneeringly derided as turkeys voting for Christmas.

But it was the middle class that voted for leave
59% of leave voters were ABC1 social grade.
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpoli ... ed-middle/

[Ostroeuropa]

Meanwhile, the demographics that voted leave in significant numbers - specifically lower income "working class" - get ignored, or sneeringly derided as turkeys voting for Christmas.

But it was the middle class that voted for leave
59% of leave voters were ABC1 social grade.

That's accounting for turnout, and turnout is always higher the richer you get. When you look at the proportions of voters, the working class and poor were far more likely to vote Brexit if they went to the polls.

https://i.imgur.com/cBpTpuk.png

[Senegalboy]

But it was the middle class that voted for leave
59% of leave voters were ABC1 social grade.

That's accounting for turnout, and turnout is always higher the richer you get. When you look at the proportions of voters, the working class and poor were far more likely to vote Brexit if they went to the polls.

https://i.imgur.com/cBpTpuk.png

But the average leave voter was middle class,from the south of England and a conservative voter.

[Ostroeuropa]

That's accounting for turnout, and turnout is always higher the richer you get. When you look at the proportions of voters, the working class and poor were far more likely to vote Brexit if they went to the polls.

https://i.imgur.com/cBpTpuk.png

But the average leave voter was middle class,from the south of England and a conservative voter.

... Right, because of turnout.
Turnout was lower among the poor, as always.

But if you took a random person at the polls who was middle class, and a random person who was working class, the working class one was more likely to be voting brexit. It's just that there were more middle class brexit voters, because working class voters weren't at the polls in as many numbers.

RICH
(R) (B)
MIDDLE
(R) (R) (R) (B) (B) (B) (B)
WORKING
(R) (B) (B).

That clear it up as an example?

[Senegalboy]

But the average leave voter was middle class,from the south of England and a conservative voter.

... Right, because of turnout.
Turnout was lower among the poor, as always.

But if you took a random person at the polls who was middle class, and a random person who was working class, the working class one was more likely to be voting brexit. It's just that there were more middle class brexit voters, because working class voters weren't at the polls in as many numbers.

RICH
(R) (B)
MIDDLE
(R) (R) (R) (B) (B) (B) (B)
WORKING
(R) (B) (B).

That clear it up as an example?

I understand what you're saying.

[Bears Armed]

Boris Johnson ordered to appear in court over his lies during the referendum campaign.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48445430

I'll call that fair "when" the promoters of 'Project Fear' -- and the elements at the BBC who wholeheartedly endorsed that policy, too -- are likewise called to court...

[Vassenor]

Boris Johnson ordered to appear in court over his lies during the referendum campaign.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48445430

I'll call that fair "when" the promoters of 'Project Fear' -- and the elements at the BBC who wholeheartedly endorsed that policy, too -- are likewise called to court...

And how are we defining "Project Fear" today?

Because from what I've seen it's been a catchall term for "suggested Brexit might have negative consequences in any way at all".

[Ifreann]

Boris Johnson ordered to appear in court over his lies during the referendum campaign.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48445430

I'll call that fair "when" the promoters of 'Project Fear' -- and the elements at the BBC who wholeheartedly endorsed that policy, too -- are likewise called to court...

Fairness, as we all know, means that if Boris Johnson lied in his campaign then you have to take a Remainer to court too.

[Senegalboy]

I'll call that fair "when" the promoters of 'Project Fear' -- and the elements at the BBC who wholeheartedly endorsed that policy, too -- are likewise called to court...

And how are we defining "Project Fear" today?

Because from what I've seen it's been a catchall term for "suggested Brexit might have negative consequences in any way at all".

Project fear was a tactic used by the remain campaign to scare people into voting remain like George Osborne saying 500,000 jobs would be lost right after the brexit vote but in reality unemployment has gone down to 3.8%

[Alvecia]

And how are we defining "Project Fear" today?

Because from what I've seen it's been a catchall term for "suggested Brexit might have negative consequences in any way at all".

Project fear was a tactic used by the remain campaign to scare people into voting remain like George Osborne saying 500,000 jobs would be lost right after the brexit vote but in reality unemployment has gone down to 3.8%

From?

[Senegalboy]

Project fear was a tactic used by the remain campaign to scare people into voting remain like George Osborne saying 500,000 jobs would be lost right after the brexit vote but in reality unemployment has gone down to 3.8%

From?

4.9%

[Alvecia]

From?

4.9%

Cool, ta

[Vassenor]

And how are we defining "Project Fear" today?

Because from what I've seen it's been a catchall term for "suggested Brexit might have negative consequences in any way at all".

Project fear was a tactic used by the remain campaign to scare people into voting remain like George Osborne saying 500,000 jobs would be lost right after the brexit vote but in reality unemployment has gone down to 3.8%

So yes, "suggested Brexit might have negative consequences in any way at all".

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Meanwhile, the demographics that voted leave in significant numbers - specifically lower income "working class" - get ignored, or sneeringly derided as turkeys voting for Christmas.

It's easy to slip into blaming the working classes for voting for an obviously stupid policy peddled by hatemongers and liars, but several decades of being fucked over by Westminster was always going to harden voters hearts against them.

What about well-informed middle class non-racist leave voters, like myself? What was the reason I voted leave, save 'I want to leave the EU for reasons I've layed out about 2 million times on this forum?'

[Alvecia]

It's easy to slip into blaming the working classes for voting for an obviously stupid policy peddled by hatemongers and liars, but several decades of being fucked over by Westminster was always going to harden voters hearts against them.

What about well-informed middle class non-racist leave voters, like myself? What was the reason I voted leave, save 'I want to leave the EU for reasons I've layed out about 2 million times on this forum?'

One step closer to nuclear hellfire?

[Senegalboy]

Project fear was a tactic used by the remain campaign to scare people into voting remain like George Osborne saying 500,000 jobs would be lost right after the brexit vote but in reality unemployment has gone down to 3.8%

So yes, "suggested Brexit might have negative consequences in any way at all".

Cameron said that "The job you do, the home you live in are at risk. The shock to our economy after leaving Europe would tip the country into recession.".I think this is a bit more than "a negative consequence" to suggest that you might become homeless or lose your job because of a vote to leave.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Project fear was a tactic used by the remain campaign to scare people into voting remain like George Osborne saying 500,000 jobs would be lost right after the brexit vote but in reality unemployment has gone down to 3.8%

So yes, "suggested Brexit might have negative consequences in any way at all".

No, talking baseless bollocks to scare people into voting remain. I know it doesn't really fit with your 'all leave voters are racist/stupid/easily fooled' idea, however most leave voters fully expect that Brexit will have some negative consequences. We know it will. We voted leave anyway.

[Vassenor]

So yes, "suggested Brexit might have negative consequences in any way at all".

Cameron said that "The job you do, the home you live in are at risk. The shock to our economy after leaving Europe would tip the country into recession.".I think this is a bit more than "a negative consequence" to suggest that you might become homeless or lose your job because of a vote to leave.

And since we haven't left yet, how can you be sure that won't happen?

[Greater vakolicci haven]

What about well-informed middle class non-racist leave voters, like myself? What was the reason I voted leave, save 'I want to leave the EU for reasons I've layed out about 2 million times on this forum?'

One step closer to nuclear hellfire?

That won't quite happen after voting leave, unfortunately. I hadn't really gotten quite so pecimistic about the world back then either.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

The Empire has been functionally stone dead since the Suez. What is rUK going to do now after renouncing Europe for the quintillionth time? Get Shanghai'd into the Shanghai "Co-Operation" org and be PRC's bitch?

[Senegalboy]

Cameron said that "The job you do, the home you live in are at risk. The shock to our economy after leaving Europe would tip the country into recession.".I think this is a bit more than "a negative consequence" to suggest that you might become homeless or lose your job because of a vote to leave.

And since we haven't left yet, how can you be sure that won't happen?

We were told that there would be a recession right after the vote not a us leaving.

[Vassenor]

And since we haven't left yet, how can you be sure that won't happen?

We were told that there would be a recession right after the vote not a us leaving.

All this just so you don't have to admit that the Leave campaign was built on lies.