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UK Politics Thread IX: The Masses Against the Classes

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Who is your preferred Conservative Party leadership candidate?

Gove
3
8%
Hunt
4
10%
Javid
3
8%
Johnson
7
18%
Raab
6
15%
Stewart
16
41%
 
Total votes : 39

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Philjia
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Posts: 9311
Founded: Sep 15, 2014
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Philjia » Tue May 21, 2019 5:43 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
He wasn't even in government when they ousted Thatcher. He got kicked out over helicopters, not his support for Maggie.


... Do you not know how Thatcher was ousted?

Hestletine issued the challenge to her leadership and pulled down 43% of the vote, necessitating a second round. Leaks and so on indicated that since it became apparent Thatcher could actually lose the second round, rebel MPs and careerists were emboldened to break rank and would back Hestletine in the second round and lead the Wets to victory and the marginalization of the Thatcherite faction. Thatcher declined to participate and withdrew from the race in order to knife Hestletine and the wets, because the only reason he did so well was as a compromise anti-thatcher candidate everyone could broadly tolerate.

Without Thatcher as a uniting force, his support balkanized into the various factions again (Communitarians, one nation tories, traditionalists, blairite types, and so on). He was nobodies favorite, but somebody people would tolerate to get rid of Thatcher. This allowed all the factions to pretend they had nothing to do with it and blame Hesltetine, meaning they could court the Thatcherite faction.

Major eventually won because he was a compromise between anti-thatcher and pro-thatcher factions of the party, the actual middle ground, whereas Hesltetine was the middle ground for anti-thatcherism.

It helped that Major was Thatcher's preferred successor.
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Ostroeuropa
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue May 21, 2019 6:31 am

Did anyone see Blair lose his shit and go on a rant about assault and violence, the rule of law and how it's super important, over the milkshake thing?

Now i'm anti milkshake, but I have to admit that one threw me into a BSOD.

Tony.

This is not the time to remind people you exist.

In fact, no time is the time to remind people you exist.

But very specifically the time to remind people you exist certainly isn't when there's vigilante action being taken against people for being mean to foreigners. Because the calculus there is very obvious and people will be forced to conclude we need to drop a two tonne crate of milkshakes on your head from the roof of a building looney toons style.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Tue May 21, 2019 6:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Do you remember the 2012 election where Mitt Romney said Russia was the biggest threat to world peace and Obama and the Democratic establishment mocked him, mere years before they began arguing they had allowed US sovereignty to be usurped on their watch by Russia and this is why the other side was unfit to govern?
That's alright, neither do they apparently.

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Ifreann
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Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Ifreann » Tue May 21, 2019 6:34 am

A spectre is haunting Britain. The spectre of Tony Blair.
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Dumb Ideologies
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Father Knows Best State

Postby Dumb Ideologies » Tue May 21, 2019 6:44 am

Ifreann wrote:A spectre is haunting Britain. The spectre of Tony Blair.


Our sources say he can hit any interviewer with a line on any topic, anywhere in the country, within 45 minutes.
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The Blaatschapen
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Anarchy

Postby The Blaatschapen » Tue May 21, 2019 6:48 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:
Ifreann wrote:A spectre is haunting Britain. The spectre of Tony Blair.


Our sources say he can hit any interviewer with a line on any topic, anywhere in the country, within 45 minutes.


That spectre sounds like me on NSG :blush:
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Philjia
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Founded: Sep 15, 2014
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Philjia » Tue May 21, 2019 6:55 am

The blAAtschApen wrote:
Dumb Ideologies wrote:
Our sources say he can hit any interviewer with a line on any topic, anywhere in the country, within 45 minutes.


That spectre sounds like me on NSG :blush:

You never invaded Iraq though.
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The Xenopolis Confederation
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Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Tue May 21, 2019 6:57 am

Philjia wrote:
The blAAtschApen wrote:
That spectre sounds like me on NSG :blush:

You never invaded Iraq though.

That's right. Keep thinking that...
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Definitely Not Trumptonium
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Founded: Mar 13, 2019
Right-wing Utopia

Postby Definitely Not Trumptonium » Tue May 21, 2019 7:31 am

Fartsniffage wrote:
Aclion wrote:Can someone translate this to American?


Thatcher right hand man and arch-Conservative, who is now a Lord, said in an interview that he would vote for the Lib Dem candidate in his area for the European Parliament because he still believes that the UK should remain in Europe.

The Conservative party have suspended him from the whip so he will now have to sit in the House of Lords as an Independent, not a Conservative.


Michael Heseltine is "Thatcher's right hand man and arch-Conservative"

Feels like I am reading either alt-history or an extremist version of Socialist Worker.

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Hirota
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Founded: Jan 22, 2004
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Hirota » Tue May 21, 2019 7:37 am

Philjia wrote:
The blAAtschApen wrote:
That spectre sounds like me on NSG :blush:

You never invaded Iraq though.
Fun fact, I was about this close to actually going to Iraq. At the time I worked for a Petrochemical company who were pulling out of the country after the invasion.
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The Blaatschapen
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Tue May 21, 2019 7:44 am

Hirota wrote:
Philjia wrote:You never invaded Iraq though.
Fun fact, I was about this close to actually going to Iraq. At the time I worked for a Petrochemical company who were pulling out of the country after the invasion.


How is this fact fun?

Interesting, yes. But fun? Invasions are fun? :p
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Behind the invisible hand of the market hides the iron fist of the state.
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect - Mark Twain
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Hurdergaryp
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 29510
Founded: Jul 10, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Hurdergaryp » Tue May 21, 2019 7:56 am

The blAAtschApen wrote:
Hirota wrote:Fun fact, I was about this close to actually going to Iraq. At the time I worked for a Petrochemical company who were pulling out of the country after the invasion.


How is this fact fun?

Interesting, yes. But fun? Invasions are fun? :p

Anything to break the monotony, I guess.

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Thermodolia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 50468
Founded: Oct 07, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Tue May 21, 2019 8:05 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:Heseltine has jumped ship from the Conservatives to the Lib Dems.

We may be witnessing the exodus of the wet Tories in a way that will spell the downfall of the oldest political party in the world. The Tory hard brexiteers will either wrest total control over the party, or the supermajority of Tory voters will flip to Brex.

In order to wrest total control, the Wet Tories have to leave the party. But those Tories?


Those are the ones that make the Conservative Party a viable party. Without them, they aren't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wets_and_dries

Gilmour was the most outspoken, delivering a lecture at Cambridge in February 1980 where he argued: "In the Conservative view, economic liberalism à la Professor Hayek, because of its starkness and its failure to create a sense of community, is not a safeguard of political freedom but a threat to it.


Been a long time coming, but maybe, just maybe, Thatchers bullshit has come home to roost and the Tories are basically done for.

Also lol. Whats this?

Stuffy posh people and Communitarians vS Libertarians and "The Monday Club"? I wonder what the connection between those last two is. I keep getting told libertarians aren't racist.

"We're libertarians. Also, keep the empire, increase military spending, crack down on these rebels. Also, no darkies in our country thankyou."

Actually the Democrats in the US are the oldest still active political party in the world being founded in 1828 compared to the conservatives founding of 1834
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Fartsniffage
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Founded: Dec 19, 2005
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Fartsniffage » Tue May 21, 2019 8:13 am

Brexit people "Throwing milkshakes is suppression of speech. Come and debate us."

Same Brexit people "Channel 4 news are political activists and are banned from all our events."

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Thermodolia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 50468
Founded: Oct 07, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Tue May 21, 2019 8:14 am

Conserative Morality wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:Well just try to avoid lumping pilots, police, military in general, underwater workers, workers in loud environments, and the deaf in there with the racists.

This isn't the cold war, people aren't really using a hand signal to identify with each other in the real world. They just have a blog.

Don't be so certain. The percentage of Americans who are neonazis and neonazi sympathizers is skyrocketing. It's not shaping up to be a cold war, but a civil one.

More Americans favor socialism (~30%) versus fascism and the Nazis (9%). The only reason you here about that 9% is because they are fucking loud as shit and make it seem like they are more than they actually are. Also people like yourself aren’t exactly helping
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Ifreann
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Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Ifreann » Tue May 21, 2019 8:17 am

Fartsniffage wrote:Brexit people "Throwing milkshakes is suppression of speech. Come and debate us."

Same Brexit people "Channel 4 news are political activists and are banned from all our events."

Presumably they want to debate issues other than politics.
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Thermodolia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Tue May 21, 2019 8:18 am

Ifreann wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:Brexit people "Throwing milkshakes is suppression of speech. Come and debate us."

Same Brexit people "Channel 4 news are political activists and are banned from all our events."

Presumably they want to debate issues other than politics.

Like the effects of milk that has been shaken on the face
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Ostroeuropa
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue May 21, 2019 8:41 am

The CUKs have some new policies out and boy howdy are they as good as the name and their logo.

Firstly they want to charge people for using self-check outs because old people supposedly don't know how to use them and it's causing check out segregation, and that's bad, that's the kind of division that caused Brexit. So what we should do, is all use the same checkouts or pay a fee to self-checkout. and then, when you're in line for your shopping, engage in friendly political conversation with elderly people doing their shopping, like a normal person.

Second, they want a day where headphones are banned so we have to talk to eachother. (screams internally).

And third, they want people to volunteer a certain amount every month in exchange for tax breaks. (Well intentioned maybe, but just think about this for two moments to realize which class will disproportionately benefit here.).

This is hell.

This is what hell looks like.

Like, just put the first two policies on a bill board and you can practically hear the nations asshole clench shut.

Now we know who those people on the bus who try to talk to strangers are. They're CUK voters. This untapped demographic will surely be the edge the party needs.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Tue May 21, 2019 8:44 am, edited 3 times in total.
Do you remember the 2012 election where Mitt Romney said Russia was the biggest threat to world peace and Obama and the Democratic establishment mocked him, mere years before they began arguing they had allowed US sovereignty to be usurped on their watch by Russia and this is why the other side was unfit to govern?
That's alright, neither do they apparently.

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Ifreann
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Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Ifreann » Tue May 21, 2019 8:46 am

Go home, ChUK, you're drunk.
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Ostroeuropa
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Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue May 21, 2019 8:51 am

Ifreann wrote:Go home, ChUK, you're drunk.


When you imagine the future Winston, I want you to imagine Chuka Umanana trying to talk to you in the supermarket and on public transport every day, forever.
Do you remember the 2012 election where Mitt Romney said Russia was the biggest threat to world peace and Obama and the Democratic establishment mocked him, mere years before they began arguing they had allowed US sovereignty to be usurped on their watch by Russia and this is why the other side was unfit to govern?
That's alright, neither do they apparently.

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Hurdergaryp
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Founded: Jul 10, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Hurdergaryp » Tue May 21, 2019 8:51 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:The CUKs have some new policies out and boy howdy are they as good as the name and their logo.

Firstly they want to charge people for using self-check outs because old people supposedly don't know how to use them and it's causing check out segregation, and that's bad, that's the kind of division that caused Brexit. So what we should do, is all use the same checkouts or pay a fee to self-checkout. and then, when you're in line for your shopping, engage in friendly political conversation with elderly people doing their shopping, like a normal person.

Second, they want a day where headphones are banned so we have to talk to eachother. (screams internally).

And third, they want people to volunteer a certain amount every month in exchange for tax breaks. (Well intentioned maybe, but just think about this for two moments to realize which class will disproportionately benefit here.).

This is hell.

This is what hell looks like.

Like, just put the first two policies on a bill board and you can practically hear the nations asshole clench shut.

Now we know who those people on the bus who try to talk to strangers are. They're CUK voters. This untapped demographic will surely be the edge the party needs.

Those Contralateral Unobstructed Kidney people undoubtedly mean well. And that's good, because the road to Hell can always use new pavement.

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The Archregimancy
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Posts: 23141
Founded: Aug 01, 2005
Democratic Socialists

Postby The Archregimancy » Tue May 21, 2019 8:54 am

Thermodolia wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:Heseltine has jumped ship from the Conservatives to the Lib Dems.

We may be witnessing the exodus of the wet Tories in a way that will spell the downfall of the oldest political party in the world. The Tory hard brexiteers will either wrest total control over the party, or the supermajority of Tory voters will flip to Brex.

In order to wrest total control, the Wet Tories have to leave the party. But those Tories?


Those are the ones that make the Conservative Party a viable party. Without them, they aren't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wets_and_dries



Been a long time coming, but maybe, just maybe, Thatchers bullshit has come home to roost and the Tories are basically done for.

Also lol. Whats this?

Stuffy posh people and Communitarians vS Libertarians and "The Monday Club"? I wonder what the connection between those last two is. I keep getting told libertarians aren't racist.

"We're libertarians. Also, keep the empire, increase military spending, crack down on these rebels. Also, no darkies in our country thankyou."

Actually the Democrats in the US are the oldest still active political party in the world being founded in 1828 compared to the conservatives founding of 1834


That depends.

The 1828 and 1834 dates mark the formation of both parties in their recognisable modern forms. However, both parties have a strong claim to continuity with earlier movements, the Democrats originating from a split in the Jeffersonian Democratic-Republican Party that came into existence from c.1792, and the Conservative Party able to claim continuity from the second Tory party that coalesced around Pitt the Younger from c.1783 (acknowledging that Pitt's supporters initially rejected the 'Tory' label).

In both cases, it's only with the benefit of hindsight that we recognise that a new party had evolved out of the former given the continuity of leading figures, though the break is perhaps sharper and more obvious in the United States given that the 1832 Democratic Party Convention more clearly marks the formation of a new party than Peel's 1834 Tamworth Manifesto, and the continuity in the British case is acknowledged by the ongoing informal use of 'Tory' for the modern party.

Which is a long-winded way of saying that Ostro wasn't necessarily wrong on that specific point; both the British and the American parties have a valid case to make. It's more a matter of perspective than hard and fast specific points in time.
Last edited by The Archregimancy on Tue May 21, 2019 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Liriena
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Tue May 21, 2019 9:09 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:The CUKs have some new policies out and boy howdy are they as good as the name and their logo.

Firstly they want to charge people for using self-check outs because old people supposedly don't know how to use them and it's causing check out segregation, and that's bad, that's the kind of division that caused Brexit. So what we should do, is all use the same checkouts or pay a fee to self-checkout. and then, when you're in line for your shopping, engage in friendly political conversation with elderly people doing their shopping, like a normal person.

Second, they want a day where headphones are banned so we have to talk to eachother. (screams internally).

And third, they want people to volunteer a certain amount every month in exchange for tax breaks. (Well intentioned maybe, but just think about this for two moments to realize which class will disproportionately benefit here.).

This is hell.

This is what hell looks like.

Like, just put the first two policies on a bill board and you can practically hear the nations asshole clench shut.

Now we know who those people on the bus who try to talk to strangers are. They're CUK voters. This untapped demographic will surely be the edge the party needs.

Are we absolutely sure that CUK is not a bunch of Corbynite astroturfers doing a bit to own the Blairites?
Last edited by Liriena on Tue May 21, 2019 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ostroeuropa
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Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue May 21, 2019 9:15 am

Liriena wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:The CUKs have some new policies out and boy howdy are they as good as the name and their logo.

Firstly they want to charge people for using self-check outs because old people supposedly don't know how to use them and it's causing check out segregation, and that's bad, that's the kind of division that caused Brexit. So what we should do, is all use the same checkouts or pay a fee to self-checkout. and then, when you're in line for your shopping, engage in friendly political conversation with elderly people doing their shopping, like a normal person.

Second, they want a day where headphones are banned so we have to talk to eachother. (screams internally).

And third, they want people to volunteer a certain amount every month in exchange for tax breaks. (Well intentioned maybe, but just think about this for two moments to realize which class will disproportionately benefit here.).

This is hell.

This is what hell looks like.

Like, just put the first two policies on a bill board and you can practically hear the nations asshole clench shut.

Now we know who those people on the bus who try to talk to strangers are. They're CUK voters. This untapped demographic will surely be the edge the party needs.

Are we absolutely sure that CUK is not a bunch of Corbynite astroturfers doing a bit to own the Blairites?


They're liberals incarnate who think everything is fine and can be solved by people being friendlier. Trump man bad, mean words about black people. Prison industrial complex fine, free markets.

EU is fine. Problem is lack of friendly conversation and unity unity unity unity. We're for good things and against bad things. VALUES. The economy is fine and just tho, that didn't cause Brexit.

What causes inter community tension?

Lack of polite and respectful conversation. That's what.

Quick, do the thing where you point with your thumb, people like that, it makes them feel like you're a normal person but not being aggressive. aggressive bad. Be friendly and polite, that'll fix things. Point with your thumb while you talk about how you're for good things and against bad things, like unity and dislike division, and how values are important.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Tue May 21, 2019 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
Do you remember the 2012 election where Mitt Romney said Russia was the biggest threat to world peace and Obama and the Democratic establishment mocked him, mere years before they began arguing they had allowed US sovereignty to be usurped on their watch by Russia and this is why the other side was unfit to govern?
That's alright, neither do they apparently.

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Liriena
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Posts: 55567
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Tue May 21, 2019 9:17 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Liriena wrote:Are we absolutely sure that CUK is not a bunch of Corbynite astroturfers doing a bit to own the Blairites?


They're liberals incarnate who think everything is fine and can be solved by people being friendlier. Trump man bad, mean words about black people. Prison industrial complex fine, free markets.

EU is fine. Problem is lack of friendly conversation and unity unity unity unity. We're for good things and against bad things. VALUES. The economy is fine and just tho, that didn't cause Brexit.

What causes inter community tension?

Lack of polite and respectful conversation. That's what.

...holy shit, they're a Cambiemos ripoff.
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The Xenopolis Confederation
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Posts: 5724
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Tue May 21, 2019 9:20 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Liriena wrote:Are we absolutely sure that CUK is not a bunch of Corbynite astroturfers doing a bit to own the Blairites?


They're liberals incarnate who think everything is fine and can be solved by people being friendlier. Trump man bad, mean words about black people. Prison industrial complex fine, free markets.

EU is fine. Problem is lack of friendly conversation and unity unity unity unity. We're for good things and against bad things. VALUES. The economy is fine and just tho, that didn't cause Brexit.

What causes inter community tension?

Lack of polite and respectful conversation. That's what.

Quick, do the thing where you point with your thumb, people like that, it makes them feel like you're a normal person but not being aggressive. aggressive bad. Be friendly and polite, that'll fix things. Point with your thumb while you talk about how you're for good things and against bad things, like unity and dislike division, and how values are important.

Oi, keep liberals out of this, we want nothing to do with them. :p
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Psychedelic Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
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