UK Politics Thread IX: The Masses Against the Classes

[Caracasus]

Been to North Wales a few times on holiday as my other half has family out that way.

Go. Seriously, you won't regret it, it is stunningly beautiful.

Snowdonia?

TG me with suggestions. Though I only plan Scotland for now, Wales will take longer I guess.
But let's not distract it too much. It's still about politics here.

On that note, which politician should I try to make a selfie with in Holyrood?

Done!

[The Huskar Social Union]

Been to North Wales a few times on holiday as my other half has family out that way.

Go. Seriously, you won't regret it, it is stunningly beautiful.

Snowdonia?

TG me with suggestions. Though I only plan Scotland for now, Wales will take longer I guess.
But let's not distract it too much. It's still about politics here.

On that note, which politician should I try to make a selfie with in Holyrood?

Come back to belfast, you know you want to ye mad sheep boi ye

[The Blaatschapen]

Snowdonia?

TG me with suggestions. Though I only plan Scotland for now, Wales will take longer I guess.
But let's not distract it too much. It's still about politics here.

On that note, which politician should I try to make a selfie with in Holyrood?

Come back to belfast, you know you want to ye mad sheep boi ye

I've seen it. It was alright, but you have to sell it better

[The Huskar Social Union]

Come back to belfast, you know you want to ye mad sheep boi ye

I've seen it. It was alright, but you have to sell it better

Eh ill take Alright, its a solid rating.

[Hurdergaryp]

Say, now that the UK has received Six More Months from a benevolent European Union, is it realistic to assume that the British government will actually agree on things and stop humiliating fair Albion by proving their collective incompetence over and over again?

[Heloin]

Say, now that the UK has received Six More Months from a benevolent European Union, is it realistic to assume that the British government will actually agree on things and stop humiliating fair Albion by proving their collective incompetence over and over again?

No.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Say, now that the UK has received Six More Months from a benevolent European Union, is it realistic to assume that the British government will actually agree on things and stop humiliating fair Albion by proving their collective incompetence over and over again?

*j jonah jameson laughing gif*

I would go find it but im eating ze sandwich

[Hurdergaryp]

Say, now that the UK has received Six More Months from a benevolent European Union, is it realistic to assume that the British government will actually agree on things and stop humiliating fair Albion by proving their collective incompetence over and over again?

No.

It's just that the joke isn't that funny anymore, it would be better if those people started behaving like actual responsible adults for a change.

[Heloin]

No.

It's just that the joke isn't that funny anymore, it would be better if those people started behaving like actual responsible adults for a change.

The joke wasn't very funny when Theresa May wouldn't stop saying Strong and Stable, but what's best for the UK doesn't seem to be given time for discussion in Westminster.

[Questarian New Yorkshire]

The British stole an estimated 45 trillion dollars from India during their time in India.Before Colonisation,India's economy made up 23% of the world's economy but by 1947 it only made up 4% of the world's economy

"45 trillion dollars" is a fake number.

The source of 45 trillion is a single Indian economic historian who had a point to prove. In doing so they took the whole amount of specie received by the British government in exchange for Rupees from a certain period, extrapolated it to the whole period in which Britain was in India including the time in which this system wasn't in use, and then applied an arbitrary (but "fair" amount of interest), and then converted it to dollars. The number doesn't deduct the value difference between what the British government charged for the purchase of rupees and their actual value either.

But, let's just assume this ridiculous methodology is realistic, and proceed. Okay. Maybe Britain "robbed" India. What did it do with that cash? We certainly aren't the beneficiary of it. Why not? Because our government spent all of it - not just some of it - all of the country's entire financial reserve, including the mandatory sale of British companies to the US at rock bottom values, by 1940, in the massive mobilisation required to fight WWII. The rest of the war was financed by loans from the US which Britain only ended up paying off in this decade. So even if we take your mad number, we can't use it to say that we are rich now because we robbed India. Our grandparents and parents built the country again from the ground up. In a stupid way. And that's why Britain was poorer than Italy until like, 1999.

The second thing is what did India lose from not having that money? Let's assume that in 1775 India was one unified state, that it is today, with a unified central government and economic policy (patently false LOL). The country's wealth in 1700, 1800, and 1900 is no reflection on what its wealth would be like today. Angus Maddison has done some interesting historical economic research. He calculated the per capita GDP of Argentina and Mexico, in 1900, to be $2,756 and $1,366 respectively. And in the same time frame, Finland was $1,668 and Japan $1,180. And you fast forward 1 century, Japan's GDP per capita was $20,738 and Finland's $19,770. And Argentina and Mexico - $8,581 and $7,275 respectively. That's in Gheary Khamis dollars. If you find some problem with this, Angus Maddison's methodology is everywhere on the internet.

We can go back to the Maddison figures. In 1949 Maddison gave India $624 per capita. In contrast, South Korea, which had been plundered by the Japanese just as much as India was by the British, had a similar figure of $819 per capita. In 2008 - 49 years later? India: $2,975 and South Korea an astonishing $19,614.

Developmental economics is obviously a complex subject. But it's clear that a country that pursues the right policies can achieve rapid growth in a very short period of time. In fact most of Korea's development was between 1988 and 2008. Yet for 30 yrs after independence, India's economic growth was more or less flatline. Any source will show that. The reason is basically because India pursued import substitution industrialisation and Korea pursued export oriented industrialisation, and a host of other factors as well, including India's insane license raj and its worship of cottage industry, three things which didn't come from the British at all. A final point. Until the 1980s, Malaysia's economy was still owned by British companies more or less, despite achieving nominal independence in 1957-1963. Yet in the 20 years between 1960 and 1980, despite the commanding heights of its resource based economy being owned by a foreign power, Malaysia's per capita product doubled. In the same time period, independent India's economy grew only by 20% per capita.

Scapegoating a colonial master is fine if you are actually their subject at the time, or if you are a freshly independent country, still in their grasp. But once you have escaped the colonial master your destiny is in your hands alone. Countless countries, some of which have no natural resources to speak of, have proven that with the right policies and institutions you can create massive wealth in one or two generations. Other countries, despite having many natural resources (Dutch disease notincluded) have proven that with dumb enough policies, any amount of wealth can be squandered.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

No.

It's just that the joke isn't that funny anymore, it would be better if those people started behaving like actual responsible adults for a change.

The problem is that our politicians don't actually want Brexit, regardless what we voted for.

[Hurdergaryp]

It's just that the joke isn't that funny anymore, it would be better if those people started behaving like actual responsible adults for a change.

The problem is that our politicians don't actually want Brexit, regardless what we voted for.

Reality itself is opposed to Brexit, because nationalistic populism commonly tends to ruin things by default. And then the nationalistic populists blame everyone but themselves for the goddamn mess, because it's always someone else's fault.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

The problem is that our politicians don't actually want Brexit, regardless what we voted for.

Reality itself is opposed to Brexit, because nationalistic populism commonly tends to ruin things by default. And then the nationalistic populists blame everyone but themselves for the goddamn mess, because it's always someone else's fault.

I don't see myself as a nationalist.

I'm not actually in any way attached to the idea of a UK. I mean to leave it. I just absolutely detest large-scale government.

[Gravlen]

Say, now that the UK has received Six More Months from a benevolent European Union, is it realistic to assume that the British government will actually agree on things and stop humiliating fair Albion by proving their collective incompetence over and over again?

It's more likely that nothing at all will be done until, say, september, at which point it'll restart exactly where we left off today.

Though who can say for sure? Maybe they'll get their shit together and find a solution to the whole mess? Pigs might one day be airborn.

[Kowani]

Reality itself is opposed to Brexit, because nationalistic populism commonly tends to ruin things by default. And then the nationalistic populists blame everyone but themselves for the goddamn mess, because it's always someone else's fault.

I don't see myself as a nationalist.

I'm not actually in any way attached to the idea of a UK. I mean to leave it. I just absolutely detest large-scale government.

Why?

[Novus America]

This is the Brexit that never ends, it goes on my friends.
Some MPs started Brexiting not knowing what it was, and they’ll continuing Brexiting forever just because this the Brexit that never ends...

[Ifreann]

That is not dead which can eternal extend
And with strange aeons even Brexit may end

[Bombadil]

I wonder how long an extension Theresa will ask for at the end of October.

We all know Brexit is the end of May.

[Fartsniffage]

I wonder how long an extension Theresa will ask for at the end of October.

We all know Brexit is the end of May.

I thought April was the end of May?

[Valrifell]

We all know Brexit is the end of May.

I thought April was the end of May?

Does the British calendar have the months June and April switched around?

[Bombadil]

We all know Brexit is the end of May.

I thought April was the end of May?

People think every month is the end of May, but May no longer ends.

[Fartsniffage]

I thought April was the end of May?

Does the British calendar have the months June and April switched around?

Yes.

[Platypus Bureaucracy]

I thought April was the end of May?

People think every month is the end of May, but May no longer ends.

In the grimdark future of Britain, there is only May.

[The Blaatschapen]

I thought April was the end of May?

People think every month is the end of May, but May no longer ends.

Eternal May, the one thing that is less preferable than eternal summer.

[Uan aa Boa]

The problem is that our politicians don't actually want Brexit, regardless what we voted for.

That's difficult, and it's why referenda should be used with care in a parliamentary system that isn't really compatible with them.

Meanwhile, Anna Soubry was on Today repeatedly failing to explain how it will help for CUk (or "we tiggers" as she called it) to split the remain vote by contesting the European elections on a platform indistinguishable from the Lib Dems. Firstly Britain was tired of adversarial politics and secondly (and rather incompatibly) they were certain that their opponents were the Tories and Labour. So that's nice.

Farage meanwhile definitely thinks the election should go ahead - unsurprising since this is probably his last chance at being famous for 15 minutes.

Does anybody not think it'll be another 11th hour deadlock in the last week of October?