UK Politics Thread IX: The Masses Against the Classes

[Greater vakolicci haven]

I've never heard this whiney ken Clarke before, I don't like it.

[Ostroeuropa]

Motion C: Customs union (Ken Clarke) (Conservative) Rejected 276-273

Motion D: Common Market 2.0 (Nick Boles) (Conservative) Rejected 282-261

Motion E: Confirmatory public vote (Peter Kyle and Phil Wilson) (Labour) Rejected 290-282

Motion G: Parliamentary supremacy (Joanna Cherry) (SNP) Rejected 292-191

There's no escape.

Parliament votes against parliamentary supremacy. Also votes against people having a say.

[Ostroeuropa]

I've never heard this whiney ken Clarke before, I don't like it.

He shouldn't have stayed in the party after Thatcher then.

[The New California Republic]

The next indicative vote should be further reduced to two proposals. The Clarke one and either D or E again.

[Fartsniffage]

I think he just resigned as whip.

He's resigned the whip, not as whip.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

I've never heard this whiney ken Clarke before, I don't like it.

He shouldn't have stayed in the party after Thatcher then.

He belongs in Cuk.

[Shrillland]

The next indicative vote should be further reduced to two proposals. The Clarke one and either D or E again.

I'll say C or E, and if they both get rejected again, then Britain had better remember its swimming lessons.

[Ostroeuropa]

I think he just resigned as whip.

He's resigned the whip, not as whip.

Difference?

[The New California Republic]

The next indicative vote should be further reduced to two proposals. The Clarke one and either D or E again.

I'll say C or E, and if they both get rejected again, then Britain had better remember its swimming lessons.

So either Customs Union or confirmatory public vote, sounds good to me.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

He's resigned the whip, not as whip.

Difference?

He's resigned as a conservative, not as a parliamentary whip. He's now an independent.

[Nimzonia]

Here you go:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47006912

I don't think this article is saying what you seem to think it is saying. For a start, it defines feminism as "the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of equality of the sexes".

Mostly, it seems to be saying that negative stereotyping of the exact sort you are displaying is causing women to abandon the label feminist.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

I'll say C or E, and if they both get rejected again, then Britain had better remember its swimming lessons.

So either Customs Union or confirmatory public vote, sounds good to me.

Or just request a temporary shutdown of parliament and merrily glide to no deal.

[Neragua]

He's resigned the whip, not as whip.

Difference?

The government or party whip maintains discipline. If you're a/the whip, this is your job.

"Resigning the whip" means you're no longer sitting/voting with the government/party.

Boles was the latter, not the former.

[The New California Republic]

So either Customs Union or confirmatory public vote, sounds good to me.

Or just request a temporary shutdown of parliament and merrily glide to no deal.

I don't think that "merrily" means what you think it means.

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

They should have changed the indicative vote system to one with preferences.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

They should have changed the indicative vote system to one with preferences.

People have been saying that since the first time it was brought up, however that would probably be hell for the counters.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Amidst this chaos there can be no ORDAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH


Like seriously, this government is a fucking mess. Damn them all call another election

[Alyakia]

customs union without single market is actually really fucking dumb and you should never actually go for it

[Greater vakolicci haven]

customs union without single market is actually really fucking dumb and you should never actually go for it

No deal is the real Brexit that most people voted for.

[Great Nepal]

They should have changed the indicative vote system to one with preferences.

Goal isn't to get something newspapers can print as 'having support of the parliament', its to actually see what has support in the parliament. Whatever comes out of this process needs to survive an straight up or down vote several times, a ranked system would produce an useless result.

Now we know parliament could support customs union, common market, and second vote. They have tomorrow to go away and hash out a compromise position - maybe between common market and second vote and have a vote on Wednesday to see if that can survive a straight up-down vote.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

customs union without single market is actually really fucking dumb and you should never actually go for it

And a single market without EU membership is equally dumb, since that just means giving up all power in Brussels.

[Thermodolia]

Amidst this chaos there can be no ORDAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH


Like seriously, this government is a fucking mess. Damn them all call another election

Parliament will have vote on that one

[Fartsniffage]

customs union without single market is actually really fucking dumb and you should never actually go for it

No deal is the real Brexit that most people voted for.

Nah.

[Ostroeuropa]

Here you go:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47006912

I don't think this article is saying what you seem to think it is saying. For a start, it defines feminism as "the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of equality of the sexes".

Mostly, it seems to be saying that negative stereotyping of the exact sort you are displaying is causing women to abandon the label feminist.

Then you need to read what I said again and consider the wording here carefully.
Advocating womens rights on the grounds of equality of the sexes is not the same thing as gender equality.

I can advocate genocide on the grounds of national security, but it doesn't mean what i'm advocating has any connection to the other thing.
There's the history of the movement and its treatment of men too and so on shows that equality is not often sought, and a substantial amount of feminist discourse is based on gynocentrism, misandry, erasure of mens issues and so on, and on opposing gender equality in areas where it would disadvantage women, because...

Eqaulity is the GROUNDS of what they advocate, what they actually advocate for is women. Huge difference.

Further, the article supports what i'm saying by noting that feminism is chiefly an upper middle class phenomanae, and the further you get from power, the less likely people are to believe it. (The more white and the more rich you are, the more likely to be a feminist. Hence its massive overrepresentation in the media.).

You claim it is "Stereotyping", but that isn't supported and is in fact incompatible with the articles own argument and discussion "We've put a bunch of feminism in the media and people aren't feminist still, why is that?", because "You hate men" is not a stereotype, or a misunderstanding, it is a judgement, a conclusion. Like "You know, Blacks have less IQ" and people go "You hate black people." and the racist replies "No, you misunderstand, that's such a stereotype about us.".

People have weighed and measured feminism and found it wanting. That feminism is man-hating is not a stereotype, it is a conclusion, and it is a conclusion people have drawn DESPITE feminists constantly advocating their view virtually unopposed in the media, in fact it is a conclusion they draw from the things feminists themselves say, most people don't know about substantive anti-feminist criticism, just hearing a feminist talk is enough to reach the conclusion.

But because of the insularity feminism espouses, the article writer (themselves a feminist) cannot grapple with that conclusion and does not even consider the possibility, despite the article itself hinting strongly why people might conclude such a thing.


Note this exchange:

The majority said they did not want to call themselves feminist because they feared they would be associated with these traits. This was despite many stressing they were not homophobic and some identifying as lesbian or bisexual.
So, how could the image of feminism be improved?
Arguably, as a society we should do more to challenge narrowly defined expectations of how women should look and act.
Working harder to make this movement more inclusive could mean that feminism speaks to the experiences and concerns of diverse groups of women.

80% of the public:
"You hate men. I do not want to be seen as hating men, so I do not want to associate with you". - The Public
"If I was nicer to women would that change your mind?"-BBC feminist journalist

This is a jarring disconnect from reality and demonstrates precisely why people have concluded feminists hate men. The ideology and worldview causes this feminist to interpret a dysfunctional response to reality here.

Why on earth woudl that change our minds? But this feminist literally cannot conceive of another solution specifically because they are a feminist and only have one mode of thought for how to deal with problems. If I were to tell you this person has had their capacity for considering "Treat men better" as an idea surgically removed from their brain, that would make this response make sense.

But this is a purely cognitive problem here that produced that reaction. Feminist ideology did that to this person. And when people interact with someone like that, they go; "Wow, no thanks.".


Note here as well which supports my point in my original post:

In recent years, feminist movements have attracted significant attention in Europe and North America. So why do so many young women still say they do not identify with the term?
Fewer than one in five young women would call themselves a feminist, polling in the UK and US suggests.
That might come as a surprise as feminism - the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of equality of the sexes - has been in the spotlight lately.

The feminist writing the article is insular and disconnected from reality. They literally cannot conceive why people who have heard their fox news style economics would reject it and think it's a bunch of stupid bullshit, because everyone in their economic class and all their co-workers agree with it, so why doesn't everyone else?

Despite wall to wall positive coverage of feminism from feminists in the media, people aren't buying it. Does the feminist conclude; "Maybe I should examine my views"? No, they just become baffled.


"Hey man no thanks I heard the Klan hated black people so I don't wanna join."

"What if we donated a couple of thousand to local white children, that sweeten the deal for ya?"

Except done with literally zero self-awareness.

[Alyakia]

customs union without single market is actually really fucking dumb and you should never actually go for it

No deal is the real Brexit that most people voted for.

bullshit it is. no deal was not considered a real possibility at the time of the brexit vote. don't make me look up the leave campaigns "ha ha it'll be the easiest deal in the world p.s. no one ever said we'd lose """"""""""""""""""""""""access"""""""""""""""""" to the single market" stuff.

customs union without single market is actually really fucking dumb and you should never actually go for it

And a single market without EU membership is equally dumb, since that just means giving up all power in Brussels.

it's dumb compared to remain, but it's not dumb compared to no deal.