NationStates

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
Does not work, since some people who wanted Brexit might have changed their position, and the central thesis of democracy is that decisions can be altered if the people desire such. Any referendum that only includes Brexit options would be a democratic farce, since 49% couldn't contribute to such a referendum meaningfully.

I want a second AV referendum, and can I have a second independence referendum as well? Also, labour lied to me, I want the general election to be re-run.

It doesn't work like that. You make a decision, maybe it can be changed after a generation, such as was stated during the Scottish referendum campaign (which, even as a supporter of independence, I support.) You can't change it before you've even inacted the result of the first referendum.

Sure you can. Especially with decisions of this magnitude, maybe thinking twice is not such a bad idea.

Sure. Campaign for a second referendum, then. Campaign for new referendums. Start a political party, petition your MP.

You do realise that elections are re-run every five years at least, right? At least, because the the election of 2015 and 2017 were less apart than a referendum on Brexit now would be from the first one. Nobody is talking about a re-run. But since the decision was based on the result of a single referendum, and that was two and a half years ago, and a lot of shit has happened since then, maybe it's unwise to chain yourself to a decision that was made in almost complete ignorance of the facts.

Hey, maybe more people became Brexiteers. But I think that your opposition is mainly due to you knowing that people have become reluctant to leave the EU over the past years.

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:I want a second AV referendum, and can I have a second independence referendum as well? Also, labour lied to me, I want the general election to be re-run.

It doesn't work like that. You make a decision, maybe it can be changed after a generation, such as was stated during the Scottish referendum campaign (which, even as a supporter of independence, I support.) You can't change it before you've even inacted the result of the first referendum.

Sure you can. Especially with decisions of this magnitude, maybe thinking twice is not such a bad idea.

Sure. Campaign for a second referendum, then. Campaign for new referendums. Start a political party, petition your MP.

You do realise that elections are re-run every five years at least, right? At least, because the the election of 2015 and 2017 were less apart than a referendum on Brexit now would be from the first one. Nobody is talking about a re-run. But since the decision was based on the result of a single referendum, and that was two and a half years ago, and a lot of shit has happened since then, maybe it's unwise to chain yourself to a decision that was made in almost complete ignorance of the facts.

Hey, maybe more people became Brexiteers. But I think that your opposition is mainly due to you knowing that people have become reluctant to leave the EU over the past years.

I know that any future referendum is going to have just the same magnitude of half-truths and scare stories as the last one. Listen to what the other side are saying is the worst possible cenario, if you still support it after hearing that, you're not going to change your mind if it's presented again. I don't particularly want no deal but I sure do want it more than remain, remaining in the EU would be a national humiliation.

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:Sure you can. Especially with decisions of this magnitude, maybe thinking twice is not such a bad idea.

Sure. Campaign for a second referendum, then. Campaign for new referendums. Start a political party, petition your MP.

You do realise that elections are re-run every five years at least, right? At least, because the the election of 2015 and 2017 were less apart than a referendum on Brexit now would be from the first one. Nobody is talking about a re-run. But since the decision was based on the result of a single referendum, and that was two and a half years ago, and a lot of shit has happened since then, maybe it's unwise to chain yourself to a decision that was made in almost complete ignorance of the facts.

Hey, maybe more people became Brexiteers. But I think that your opposition is mainly due to you knowing that people have become reluctant to leave the EU over the past years.

I know that any future referendum is going to have just the same magnitude of half-truths and scare stories as the last one. Listen to what the other side are saying is the worst possible cenario, if you still support it after hearing that, you're not going to change your mind if it's presented again. I don't particularly want no deal but I sure do want it more than remain, remaining in the EU would be a national humiliation.

You don't rule the UK alone, though. There are other people who disagree with you. They might want to stay. You can't make that decision for them. Letting them voice their own opinion is democracy.

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:I know that any future referendum is going to have just the same magnitude of half-truths and scare stories as the last one. Listen to what the other side are saying is the worst possible cenario, if you still support it after hearing that, you're not going to change your mind if it's presented again. I don't particularly want no deal but I sure do want it more than remain, remaining in the EU would be a national humiliation.

You don't rule the UK alone, though. There are other people who disagree with you. They might want to stay. You can't make that decision for them. Letting them voice their own opinion is democracy.

Rings hollow given that the progressive left has been operating in a winner takes all fashion for decades. You can't impose feminism, immigration, progressive speech laws and so on on a populace that despises them, then complain when the backlash excludes you. It's a climate of their own making. I say that as a pro-EU person, but if this is the start of a majority getting to impose their will while excluding the progressive left from the discussion, then it'll be worth it.

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:I know that any future referendum is going to have just the same magnitude of half-truths and scare stories as the last one. Listen to what the other side are saying is the worst possible cenario, if you still support it after hearing that, you're not going to change your mind if it's presented again. I don't particularly want no deal but I sure do want it more than remain, remaining in the EU would be a national humiliation.

You don't rule the UK alone, though. There are other people who disagree with you. They might want to stay. You can't make that decision for them. Letting them voice their own opinion is democracy.

They had a chance to voice their minds in 2016, they were in the minority. They had another one in 2017, and they voted overwhelmingly for parties which had leaving the EU as a manifesto commitment. How many chances do these people need to get the decision they want?

Ostroeuropa wrote:

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
You don't rule the UK alone, though. There are other people who disagree with you. They might want to stay. You can't make that decision for them. Letting them voice their own opinion is democracy.

Rings hollow given that the progressive left has been operating in a winner takes all fashion for decades. You can't impose feminism, immigration, progressive speech laws and so on on a populace that despises them, then complain when the backlash excludes you. It's a climate of their own making. I say that as a pro-EU person, but if this is the start of a majority getting to impose their will while excluding the progressive left from the discussion, then it'll be worth it.

The progressive left is using the same tactics in this it has always used, sneering and derisiveness directed at its opponents in lue of debate and facts, regular interrupting, fearmongering and divisiveness. A bit of backlash is required.

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
Does not work, since some people who wanted Brexit might have changed their position, and the central thesis of democracy is that decisions can be altered if the people desire such. Any referendum that only includes Brexit options would be a democratic farce, since 49% couldn't contribute to such a referendum meaningfully.

I want a second AV referendum, and can I have a second independence referendum as well? Also, labour lied to me, I want the general election to be re-run.

It doesn't work like that. You make a decision, maybe it can be changed after a generation, such as was stated during the Scottish referendum campaign (which, even as a supporter of independence, I support.) You can't change it before you've even inacted the result of the first referendum.

The problem here is that referenda are not a well established part of British politics. You can neither look to law nor tradition to determine when and if you can have a second referendum on any given question.

Ifreann wrote:

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:I want a second AV referendum, and can I have a second independence referendum as well? Also, labour lied to me, I want the general election to be re-run.

It doesn't work like that. You make a decision, maybe it can be changed after a generation, such as was stated during the Scottish referendum campaign (which, even as a supporter of independence, I support.) You can't change it before you've even inacted the result of the first referendum.

The problem here is that referenda are not a well established part of British politics. You can neither look to law nor tradition to determine when and if you can have a second referendum on any given question.

Perhaps we should start then with the Scottish referendum, once in a generation? Or the 1975 EEC referendum, followed by another one in 2016. I'd be more than happy to give my support if remainers would like another referendum in 41 years, but hopefully the EU won't exist by then.

Ifreann wrote:

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:I want a second AV referendum, and can I have a second independence referendum as well? Also, labour lied to me, I want the general election to be re-run.

It doesn't work like that. You make a decision, maybe it can be changed after a generation, such as was stated during the Scottish referendum campaign (which, even as a supporter of independence, I support.) You can't change it before you've even inacted the result of the first referendum.

The problem here is that referenda are not a well established part of British politics. You can neither look to law nor tradition to determine when and if you can have a second referendum on any given question.

We should have a referendum on having a referendum.

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
Does not work, since some people who wanted Brexit might have changed their position, and the central thesis of democracy is that decisions can be altered if the people desire such. Any referendum that only includes Brexit options would be a democratic farce, since 49% couldn't contribute to such a referendum meaningfully.

I want a second AV referendum, and can I have a second independence referendum as well? Also, labour lied to me, I want the general election to be re-run.

It doesn't work like that. You make a decision, maybe it can be changed after a generation, such as was stated during the Scottish referendum campaign (which, even as a supporter of independence, I support.) You can't change it before you've even inacted the result of the first referendum.

well, yes. i fully expect another general election and another independence referendum in the next 5 years at this rate.

also, if you decide the decision is silly and you don't want to do it anymore you can totally change your mind and do something else without going through with the original decision. this is terrible logic that brexiters only buy into for the sake of delegitimizing the idea of another referendum and would not apply to much else because it is terrible. daily reminder that nigel farage was already agitating for a second referendum on the day of the vote when he thought he had lost.

Souseiseki wrote:

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:I want a second AV referendum, and can I have a second independence referendum as well? Also, labour lied to me, I want the general election to be re-run.

It doesn't work like that. You make a decision, maybe it can be changed after a generation, such as was stated during the Scottish referendum campaign (which, even as a supporter of independence, I support.) You can't change it before you've even inacted the result of the first referendum.

well, yes. i fully expect another general election and another independence referendum in the next 5 years at this rate.

also, if you decide the decision is silly and you don't want to do it anymore you can totally change your mind and do something else without going through with the original decision. this is terrible logic that brexiters only buy into for the sake of delegitimizing the idea of another referendum and would not apply to much else because it is terrible. daily reminder that nigel farage was already agitating for a second referendum on the day of the vote when he thought he had lost.

Can I change my mind about my phone contract then please? It was silly, I was lied to, I might be 2 months into it but I've changed my mind now.

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:

Souseiseki wrote:
well, yes. i fully expect another general election and another independence referendum in the next 5 years at this rate.

also, if you decide the decision is silly and you don't want to do it anymore you can totally change your mind and do something else without going through with the original decision. this is terrible logic that brexiters only buy into for the sake of delegitimizing the idea of another referendum and would not apply to much else because it is terrible. daily reminder that nigel farage was already agitating for a second referendum on the day of the vote when he thought he had lost.

Can I change my mind about my phone contract then please? It was silly, I was lied to, I might be 2 months into it but I've changed my mind now.

if they legitimately lied to you then that's probably illegal yes

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:

Souseiseki wrote:
well, yes. i fully expect another general election and another independence referendum in the next 5 years at this rate.

also, if you decide the decision is silly and you don't want to do it anymore you can totally change your mind and do something else without going through with the original decision. this is terrible logic that brexiters only buy into for the sake of delegitimizing the idea of another referendum and would not apply to much else because it is terrible. daily reminder that nigel farage was already agitating for a second referendum on the day of the vote when he thought he had lost.

Can I change my mind about my phone contract then please? It was silly, I was lied to, I might be 2 months into it but I've changed my mind now.

If the people selling it to you withheld or mislead you about really crucial info then yes. Yes you could.

Souseiseki wrote:

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Can I change my mind about my phone contract then please? It was silly, I was lied to, I might be 2 months into it but I've changed my mind now.

if they legitimately lied to you then that's probably illegal yes

No, I just didn't understand something about it. They were very clear about it, but I was hung over you see and I didn't understand it. Can I change my mind?

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
Does not work, since some people who wanted Brexit might have changed their position, and the central thesis of democracy is that decisions can be altered if the people desire such. Any referendum that only includes Brexit options would be a democratic farce, since 49% couldn't contribute to such a referendum meaningfully.

I want a second AV referendum, and can I have a second independence referendum as well? Also, labour lied to me, I want the general election to be re-run.

It doesn't work like that. You make a decision, maybe it can be changed after a generation, such as was stated during the Scottish referendum campaign (which, even as a supporter of independence, I support.) You can't change it before you've even inacted the result of the first referendum.

#willonlybeconsideredsettledbyatwothirdsmajority

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:

Souseiseki wrote:
if they legitimately lied to you then that's probably illegal yes

No, I just didn't understand something about it. They were very clear about it, but I was hung over you see and I didn't understand it. Can I change my mind?

you shouldn't be signing contracts while you're drunk and many contracts signed under such circumstances will be nulled, but i can't say i know the exact answer to that in the case of a phone contract

Vassenor wrote:

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:I want a second AV referendum, and can I have a second independence referendum as well? Also, labour lied to me, I want the general election to be re-run.

It doesn't work like that. You make a decision, maybe it can be changed after a generation, such as was stated during the Scottish referendum campaign (which, even as a supporter of independence, I support.) You can't change it before you've even inacted the result of the first referendum.

#willonlybeconsideredsettledbyatwothirdsmajority

I'm sure I'm giving you the same reaction that you'd have given me if you'd have won.

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:

Souseiseki wrote:
if they legitimately lied to you then that's probably illegal yes

No, I just didn't understand something about it. They were very clear about it, but I was hung over you see and I didn't understand it. Can I change my mind?

Sure, but you will probably have to pay a fee. Much like I imagine the EU will do to us if we decide to stay in now.

Also I didn't know your phone contract directly affects the lives of almost seventy million people.

#falseequivalence

Souseiseki wrote:

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:No, I just didn't understand something about it. They were very clear about it, but I was hung over you see and I didn't understand it. Can I change my mind?

you shouldn't be signing contracts while you're drunk and many contracts signed under such circumstances will be nulled, but i can't say i know the exact answer to that in the case of a phone contract

No, not drunk, just a bit hung over. Or maybe I'm just stupid, I did vote for Brexit after all and we were all just idiots who got misled apparently so I might have been misled about my phone contract as well who knows.

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:

Ifreann wrote:The problem here is that referenda are not a well established part of British politics. You can neither look to law nor tradition to determine when and if you can have a second referendum on any given question.

Perhaps we should start then with the Scottish referendum, once in a generation? Or the 1975 EEC referendum, followed by another one in 2016. I'd be more than happy to give my support if remainers would like another referendum in 41 years, but hopefully the EU won't exist by then.

Maybe try and decide what to do about referenda in your political system independent of bickering about Brexit, Scottish independence, or AV.

A tall order, I know

---

Fartsniffage wrote:

Ifreann wrote:The problem here is that referenda are not a well established part of British politics. You can neither look to law nor tradition to determine when and if you can have a second referendum on any given question.

We should have a referendum on having a referendum.

Maybe first have a referendum on whether that referendum about having a referendum will be binding or advisory.

Ifreann wrote:

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Perhaps we should start then with the Scottish referendum, once in a generation? Or the 1975 EEC referendum, followed by another one in 2016. I'd be more than happy to give my support if remainers would like another referendum in 41 years, but hopefully the EU won't exist by then.

Maybe try and decide what to do about referenda in your political system independent of bickering about Brexit, Scottish independence, or AV.

A tall order, I know

---

Fartsniffage wrote:
We should have a referendum on having a referendum.

Maybe first have a referendum on whether that referendum about having a referendum will be binding or advisory.

But they can never be binding, UK no work that way.

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:

Souseiseki wrote:
if they legitimately lied to you then that's probably illegal yes

No, I just didn't understand something about it. They were very clear about it, but I was hung over you see and I didn't understand it. Can I change my mind?

Actually, depending on how intoxicated you were, the contract may not be valid. If the person who sold you your contract knew you were intoxicated and sold you the contract, you might be able to get out of it.

Fartsniffage wrote:

Ifreann wrote:Maybe try and decide what to do about referenda in your political system independent of bickering about Brexit, Scottish independence, or AV.

A tall order, I know

---

Maybe first have a referendum on whether that referendum about having a referendum will be binding or advisory.

But they can never be binding, UK no work that way.

Parliament is only sovereign and supreme when it suits the Leavers.

Vassenor wrote:Also I didn't know your phone contract directly affects the lives of almost seventy million people.

#falseequivalence

No, not at all! But if we all decided we were going to cancel our phone contracts, think about it. We were all just misled about our phone contracts, I bet that data coverage isn't what they promised is it? What did they say, 99 %? Bet you don't get that in the highlands, bet you don't even get it in those fucking weird bits of Edinburgh where phone coverage doesn't exist. South Cheshire, no; you see, we were all lied to about these phones. We should have a second choice on phone contracts.