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UK Politics Thread IX: The Masses Against the Classes

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Who is your preferred Conservative Party leadership candidate?

Gove
5
4%
Hunt
11
9%
Javid
5
4%
Johnson
37
31%
Raab
11
9%
Stewart
50
42%
 
Total votes : 119

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Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States
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Posts: 17480
Founded: Feb 20, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States » Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:41 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
Does not work, since some people who wanted Brexit might have changed their position, and the central thesis of democracy is that decisions can be altered if the people desire such. Any referendum that only includes Brexit options would be a democratic farce, since 49% couldn't contribute to such a referendum meaningfully.

I want a second AV referendum, and can I have a second independence referendum as well? Also, labour lied to me, I want the general election to be re-run.

It doesn't work like that. You make a decision, maybe it can be changed after a generation, such as was stated during the Scottish referendum campaign (which, even as a supporter of independence, I support.) You can't change it before you've even inacted the result of the first referendum.

Sure you can. Especially with decisions of this magnitude, maybe thinking twice is not such a bad idea.

Sure. Campaign for a second referendum, then. Campaign for new referendums. Start a political party, petition your MP.

You do realise that elections are re-run every five years at least, right? At least, because the the election of 2015 and 2017 were less apart than a referendum on Brexit now would be from the first one. Nobody is talking about a re-run. But since the decision was based on the result of a single referendum, and that was two and a half years ago, and a lot of shit has happened since then, maybe it's unwise to chain yourself to a decision that was made in almost complete ignorance of the facts.

Hey, maybe more people became Brexiteers. But I think that your opposition is mainly due to you knowing that people have become reluctant to leave the EU over the past years.
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Greater vakolicci haven
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Founded: May 09, 2014
Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:43 am

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:I want a second AV referendum, and can I have a second independence referendum as well? Also, labour lied to me, I want the general election to be re-run.

It doesn't work like that. You make a decision, maybe it can be changed after a generation, such as was stated during the Scottish referendum campaign (which, even as a supporter of independence, I support.) You can't change it before you've even inacted the result of the first referendum.

Sure you can. Especially with decisions of this magnitude, maybe thinking twice is not such a bad idea.

Sure. Campaign for a second referendum, then. Campaign for new referendums. Start a political party, petition your MP.

You do realise that elections are re-run every five years at least, right? At least, because the the election of 2015 and 2017 were less apart than a referendum on Brexit now would be from the first one. Nobody is talking about a re-run. But since the decision was based on the result of a single referendum, and that was two and a half years ago, and a lot of shit has happened since then, maybe it's unwise to chain yourself to a decision that was made in almost complete ignorance of the facts.

Hey, maybe more people became Brexiteers. But I think that your opposition is mainly due to you knowing that people have become reluctant to leave the EU over the past years.

I know that any future referendum is going to have just the same magnitude of half-truths and scare stories as the last one. Listen to what the other side are saying is the worst possible cenario, if you still support it after hearing that, you're not going to change your mind if it's presented again. I don't particularly want no deal but I sure do want it more than remain, remaining in the EU would be a national humiliation.

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Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States
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Posts: 17480
Founded: Feb 20, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States » Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:45 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:Sure you can. Especially with decisions of this magnitude, maybe thinking twice is not such a bad idea.

Sure. Campaign for a second referendum, then. Campaign for new referendums. Start a political party, petition your MP.

You do realise that elections are re-run every five years at least, right? At least, because the the election of 2015 and 2017 were less apart than a referendum on Brexit now would be from the first one. Nobody is talking about a re-run. But since the decision was based on the result of a single referendum, and that was two and a half years ago, and a lot of shit has happened since then, maybe it's unwise to chain yourself to a decision that was made in almost complete ignorance of the facts.

Hey, maybe more people became Brexiteers. But I think that your opposition is mainly due to you knowing that people have become reluctant to leave the EU over the past years.

I know that any future referendum is going to have just the same magnitude of half-truths and scare stories as the last one. Listen to what the other side are saying is the worst possible cenario, if you still support it after hearing that, you're not going to change your mind if it's presented again. I don't particularly want no deal but I sure do want it more than remain, remaining in the EU would be a national humiliation.


You don't rule the UK alone, though. There are other people who disagree with you. They might want to stay. You can't make that decision for them. Letting them voice their own opinion is democracy.
The name's James. James Usari. Well, my name is not actually James Usari, so don't bother actually looking it up, but it'll do for now.

Lack of a real name means compensation through a real face. My debt is settled


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Ostroeuropa
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Posts: 52172
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:46 am

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:I know that any future referendum is going to have just the same magnitude of half-truths and scare stories as the last one. Listen to what the other side are saying is the worst possible cenario, if you still support it after hearing that, you're not going to change your mind if it's presented again. I don't particularly want no deal but I sure do want it more than remain, remaining in the EU would be a national humiliation.


You don't rule the UK alone, though. There are other people who disagree with you. They might want to stay. You can't make that decision for them. Letting them voice their own opinion is democracy.


Rings hollow given that the progressive left has been operating in a winner takes all fashion for decades. You can't impose feminism, immigration, progressive speech laws and so on on a populace that despises them, then complain when the backlash excludes you. It's a climate of their own making. I say that as a pro-EU person, but if this is the start of a majority getting to impose their will while excluding the progressive left from the discussion, then it'll be worth it.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Greater vakolicci haven
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Posts: 14170
Founded: May 09, 2014
Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:47 am

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:I know that any future referendum is going to have just the same magnitude of half-truths and scare stories as the last one. Listen to what the other side are saying is the worst possible cenario, if you still support it after hearing that, you're not going to change your mind if it's presented again. I don't particularly want no deal but I sure do want it more than remain, remaining in the EU would be a national humiliation.


You don't rule the UK alone, though. There are other people who disagree with you. They might want to stay. You can't make that decision for them. Letting them voice their own opinion is democracy.

They had a chance to voice their minds in 2016, they were in the minority. They had another one in 2017, and they voted overwhelmingly for parties which had leaving the EU as a manifesto commitment. How many chances do these people need to get the decision they want?

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Greater vakolicci haven
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Posts: 14170
Founded: May 09, 2014
Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:49 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
You don't rule the UK alone, though. There are other people who disagree with you. They might want to stay. You can't make that decision for them. Letting them voice their own opinion is democracy.


Rings hollow given that the progressive left has been operating in a winner takes all fashion for decades. You can't impose feminism, immigration, progressive speech laws and so on on a populace that despises them, then complain when the backlash excludes you. It's a climate of their own making. I say that as a pro-EU person, but if this is the start of a majority getting to impose their will while excluding the progressive left from the discussion, then it'll be worth it.

The progressive left is using the same tactics in this it has always used, sneering and derisiveness directed at its opponents in lue of debate and facts, regular interrupting, fearmongering and divisiveness. A bit of backlash is required.

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Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 133318
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Democratic Socialists

Postby Ifreann » Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:55 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
Does not work, since some people who wanted Brexit might have changed their position, and the central thesis of democracy is that decisions can be altered if the people desire such. Any referendum that only includes Brexit options would be a democratic farce, since 49% couldn't contribute to such a referendum meaningfully.

I want a second AV referendum, and can I have a second independence referendum as well? Also, labour lied to me, I want the general election to be re-run.

It doesn't work like that. You make a decision, maybe it can be changed after a generation, such as was stated during the Scottish referendum campaign (which, even as a supporter of independence, I support.) You can't change it before you've even inacted the result of the first referendum.

The problem here is that referenda are not a well established part of British politics. You can neither look to law nor tradition to determine when and if you can have a second referendum on any given question.
Mistake Not My Current State Of Joshing Gentle Banter For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Snark That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Sarcasm
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Greater vakolicci haven
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Posts: 14170
Founded: May 09, 2014
Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:57 am

Ifreann wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:I want a second AV referendum, and can I have a second independence referendum as well? Also, labour lied to me, I want the general election to be re-run.

It doesn't work like that. You make a decision, maybe it can be changed after a generation, such as was stated during the Scottish referendum campaign (which, even as a supporter of independence, I support.) You can't change it before you've even inacted the result of the first referendum.

The problem here is that referenda are not a well established part of British politics. You can neither look to law nor tradition to determine when and if you can have a second referendum on any given question.

Perhaps we should start then with the Scottish referendum, once in a generation? Or the 1975 EEC referendum, followed by another one in 2016. I'd be more than happy to give my support if remainers would like another referendum in 41 years, but hopefully the EU won't exist by then.

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Fartsniffage
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33197
Founded: Dec 19, 2005
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Fartsniffage » Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:01 am

Ifreann wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:I want a second AV referendum, and can I have a second independence referendum as well? Also, labour lied to me, I want the general election to be re-run.

It doesn't work like that. You make a decision, maybe it can be changed after a generation, such as was stated during the Scottish referendum campaign (which, even as a supporter of independence, I support.) You can't change it before you've even inacted the result of the first referendum.

The problem here is that referenda are not a well established part of British politics. You can neither look to law nor tradition to determine when and if you can have a second referendum on any given question.


We should have a referendum on having a referendum.

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Souseiseki
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18413
Founded: Apr 12, 2012
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Souseiseki » Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:02 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
Does not work, since some people who wanted Brexit might have changed their position, and the central thesis of democracy is that decisions can be altered if the people desire such. Any referendum that only includes Brexit options would be a democratic farce, since 49% couldn't contribute to such a referendum meaningfully.

I want a second AV referendum, and can I have a second independence referendum as well? Also, labour lied to me, I want the general election to be re-run.

It doesn't work like that. You make a decision, maybe it can be changed after a generation, such as was stated during the Scottish referendum campaign (which, even as a supporter of independence, I support.) You can't change it before you've even inacted the result of the first referendum.


well, yes. i fully expect another general election and another independence referendum in the next 5 years at this rate.

also, if you decide the decision is silly and you don't want to do it anymore you can totally change your mind and do something else without going through with the original decision. this is terrible logic that brexiters only buy into for the sake of delegitimizing the idea of another referendum and would not apply to much else because it is terrible. daily reminder that nigel farage was already agitating for a second referendum on the day of the vote when he thought he had lost.
ask moderation about reading serious moderation candidates TGs without telling them about it until afterwards and/or apparently refusing to confirm/deny the exact timeline of TG reading ~~~ i hope you never sent any of the recent mods or the ones that got really close anything personal!

signature edit: confirmation has been received. they will explicitly do it before and without asking. they can look at TGs basically whenever they want so please keep this in mind when nominating people for moderator or TGing good posters/anyone!
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Greater vakolicci haven
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Founded: May 09, 2014
Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:05 am

Souseiseki wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:I want a second AV referendum, and can I have a second independence referendum as well? Also, labour lied to me, I want the general election to be re-run.

It doesn't work like that. You make a decision, maybe it can be changed after a generation, such as was stated during the Scottish referendum campaign (which, even as a supporter of independence, I support.) You can't change it before you've even inacted the result of the first referendum.


well, yes. i fully expect another general election and another independence referendum in the next 5 years at this rate.

also, if you decide the decision is silly and you don't want to do it anymore you can totally change your mind and do something else without going through with the original decision. this is terrible logic that brexiters only buy into for the sake of delegitimizing the idea of another referendum and would not apply to much else because it is terrible. daily reminder that nigel farage was already agitating for a second referendum on the day of the vote when he thought he had lost.

Can I change my mind about my phone contract then please? It was silly, I was lied to, I might be 2 months into it but I've changed my mind now.

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Souseiseki
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18413
Founded: Apr 12, 2012
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Souseiseki » Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:06 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Souseiseki wrote:
well, yes. i fully expect another general election and another independence referendum in the next 5 years at this rate.

also, if you decide the decision is silly and you don't want to do it anymore you can totally change your mind and do something else without going through with the original decision. this is terrible logic that brexiters only buy into for the sake of delegitimizing the idea of another referendum and would not apply to much else because it is terrible. daily reminder that nigel farage was already agitating for a second referendum on the day of the vote when he thought he had lost.

Can I change my mind about my phone contract then please? It was silly, I was lied to, I might be 2 months into it but I've changed my mind now.


if they legitimately lied to you then that's probably illegal yes
ask moderation about reading serious moderation candidates TGs without telling them about it until afterwards and/or apparently refusing to confirm/deny the exact timeline of TG reading ~~~ i hope you never sent any of the recent mods or the ones that got really close anything personal!

signature edit: confirmation has been received. they will explicitly do it before and without asking. they can look at TGs basically whenever they want so please keep this in mind when nominating people for moderator or TGing good posters/anyone!
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Caracasus
Issues Editor
 
Posts: 7757
Founded: Apr 23, 2015
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Caracasus » Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:06 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Souseiseki wrote:
well, yes. i fully expect another general election and another independence referendum in the next 5 years at this rate.

also, if you decide the decision is silly and you don't want to do it anymore you can totally change your mind and do something else without going through with the original decision. this is terrible logic that brexiters only buy into for the sake of delegitimizing the idea of another referendum and would not apply to much else because it is terrible. daily reminder that nigel farage was already agitating for a second referendum on the day of the vote when he thought he had lost.

Can I change my mind about my phone contract then please? It was silly, I was lied to, I might be 2 months into it but I've changed my mind now.


If the people selling it to you withheld or mislead you about really crucial info then yes. Yes you could.
As an editor I seam to spend an awful lot of thyme going threw issues and checking that they're no oblivious errars. Its a tough job but someone's got too do it!



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Greater vakolicci haven
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Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:07 am

Souseiseki wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Can I change my mind about my phone contract then please? It was silly, I was lied to, I might be 2 months into it but I've changed my mind now.


if they legitimately lied to you then that's probably illegal yes

No, I just didn't understand something about it. They were very clear about it, but I was hung over you see and I didn't understand it. Can I change my mind?

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Vassenor
Post Czar
 
Posts: 46076
Founded: Nov 11, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:08 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
Does not work, since some people who wanted Brexit might have changed their position, and the central thesis of democracy is that decisions can be altered if the people desire such. Any referendum that only includes Brexit options would be a democratic farce, since 49% couldn't contribute to such a referendum meaningfully.

I want a second AV referendum, and can I have a second independence referendum as well? Also, labour lied to me, I want the general election to be re-run.

It doesn't work like that. You make a decision, maybe it can be changed after a generation, such as was stated during the Scottish referendum campaign (which, even as a supporter of independence, I support.) You can't change it before you've even inacted the result of the first referendum.


#willonlybeconsideredsettledbyatwothirdsmajority
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Souseiseki
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18413
Founded: Apr 12, 2012
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Souseiseki » Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:10 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Souseiseki wrote:
if they legitimately lied to you then that's probably illegal yes

No, I just didn't understand something about it. They were very clear about it, but I was hung over you see and I didn't understand it. Can I change my mind?


you shouldn't be signing contracts while you're drunk and many contracts signed under such circumstances will be nulled, but i can't say i know the exact answer to that in the case of a phone contract
ask moderation about reading serious moderation candidates TGs without telling them about it until afterwards and/or apparently refusing to confirm/deny the exact timeline of TG reading ~~~ i hope you never sent any of the recent mods or the ones that got really close anything personal!

signature edit: confirmation has been received. they will explicitly do it before and without asking. they can look at TGs basically whenever they want so please keep this in mind when nominating people for moderator or TGing good posters/anyone!
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Greater vakolicci haven
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Posts: 14170
Founded: May 09, 2014
Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:10 am

Vassenor wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:I want a second AV referendum, and can I have a second independence referendum as well? Also, labour lied to me, I want the general election to be re-run.

It doesn't work like that. You make a decision, maybe it can be changed after a generation, such as was stated during the Scottish referendum campaign (which, even as a supporter of independence, I support.) You can't change it before you've even inacted the result of the first referendum.


#willonlybeconsideredsettledbyatwothirdsmajority

I'm sure I'm giving you the same reaction that you'd have given me if you'd have won.

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Fartsniffage
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33197
Founded: Dec 19, 2005
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Fartsniffage » Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:11 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Souseiseki wrote:
if they legitimately lied to you then that's probably illegal yes

No, I just didn't understand something about it. They were very clear about it, but I was hung over you see and I didn't understand it. Can I change my mind?


Sure, but you will probably have to pay a fee. Much like I imagine the EU will do to us if we decide to stay in now.

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Vassenor
Post Czar
 
Posts: 46076
Founded: Nov 11, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:11 am

Also I didn't know your phone contract directly affects the lives of almost seventy million people.

#falseequivalence
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Greater vakolicci haven
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14170
Founded: May 09, 2014
Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:11 am

Souseiseki wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:No, I just didn't understand something about it. They were very clear about it, but I was hung over you see and I didn't understand it. Can I change my mind?


you shouldn't be signing contracts while you're drunk and many contracts signed under such circumstances will be nulled, but i can't say i know the exact answer to that in the case of a phone contract

No, not drunk, just a bit hung over. Or maybe I'm just stupid, I did vote for Brexit after all and we were all just idiots who got misled apparently so I might have been misled about my phone contract as well who knows.

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Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 133318
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Democratic Socialists

Postby Ifreann » Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:12 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Ifreann wrote:The problem here is that referenda are not a well established part of British politics. You can neither look to law nor tradition to determine when and if you can have a second referendum on any given question.

Perhaps we should start then with the Scottish referendum, once in a generation? Or the 1975 EEC referendum, followed by another one in 2016. I'd be more than happy to give my support if remainers would like another referendum in 41 years, but hopefully the EU won't exist by then.

Maybe try and decide what to do about referenda in your political system independent of bickering about Brexit, Scottish independence, or AV.

A tall order, I know


Fartsniffage wrote:
Ifreann wrote:The problem here is that referenda are not a well established part of British politics. You can neither look to law nor tradition to determine when and if you can have a second referendum on any given question.


We should have a referendum on having a referendum.

Maybe first have a referendum on whether that referendum about having a referendum will be binding or advisory.
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He/Him

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With his kiss
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Fartsniffage
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33197
Founded: Dec 19, 2005
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Fartsniffage » Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:13 am

Ifreann wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Perhaps we should start then with the Scottish referendum, once in a generation? Or the 1975 EEC referendum, followed by another one in 2016. I'd be more than happy to give my support if remainers would like another referendum in 41 years, but hopefully the EU won't exist by then.

Maybe try and decide what to do about referenda in your political system independent of bickering about Brexit, Scottish independence, or AV.

A tall order, I know


Fartsniffage wrote:
We should have a referendum on having a referendum.

Maybe first have a referendum on whether that referendum about having a referendum will be binding or advisory.


But they can never be binding, UK no work that way.

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The Free Joy State
Senior Issues Editor
 
Posts: 9870
Founded: Jan 05, 2014
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby The Free Joy State » Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:13 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Souseiseki wrote:
if they legitimately lied to you then that's probably illegal yes

No, I just didn't understand something about it. They were very clear about it, but I was hung over you see and I didn't understand it. Can I change my mind?

Actually, depending on how intoxicated you were, the contract may not be valid. If the person who sold you your contract knew you were intoxicated and sold you the contract, you might be able to get out of it.
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Vassenor
Post Czar
 
Posts: 46076
Founded: Nov 11, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:14 am

Fartsniffage wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Maybe try and decide what to do about referenda in your political system independent of bickering about Brexit, Scottish independence, or AV.

A tall order, I know



Maybe first have a referendum on whether that referendum about having a referendum will be binding or advisory.


But they can never be binding, UK no work that way.


Parliament is only sovereign and supreme when it suits the Leavers.
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Greater vakolicci haven
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14170
Founded: May 09, 2014
Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:14 am

Vassenor wrote:Also I didn't know your phone contract directly affects the lives of almost seventy million people.

#falseequivalence

No, not at all! But if we all decided we were going to cancel our phone contracts, think about it. We were all just misled about our phone contracts, I bet that data coverage isn't what they promised is it? What did they say, 99 %? Bet you don't get that in the highlands, bet you don't even get it in those fucking weird bits of Edinburgh where phone coverage doesn't exist. South Cheshire, no; you see, we were all lied to about these phones. We should have a second choice on phone contracts.

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