UK Politics Thread IX: The Masses Against the Classes

[Ostroeuropa]

I've made up my mind on Brexit, I begrudgingly support it provided we leave the European court as well (Which is a requirement for being in the EU, though a seperate institution from it). It opens us up to leaving treaties like the Istanbul convention and so on.

[The Blaatschapen]

Rory Stewart: "I'm not saying I'm a spy, but I am saying that I'm legally required to say I'm not a spy"

I actually wonder if a spy would make a good leader. Leaders in the past have included veterans and such, so why not spies?

Putin worked for the KGB.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Putin#KGB_career

[West Leas Oros 2]

I actually wonder if a spy would make a good leader. Leaders in the past have included veterans and such, so why not spies?

Putin worked for the KGB.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Putin#KGB_career

But is Putin a good leader? I guess that answers my question.

[Jack Thomas Lang]

But is Putin a good leader? I guess that answers my question.

Depends on what you mean by good. Morally good? Nah, but he's pragmatically efficient.

The Soviet Union had a similar situation with Andropov, another ex-KGB Premier. Ramped up repression but helped remove Brezhnevite-era corruption and introduce much needed economic reforms.

[Definitely Not Trumptonium]

Don't know a single Tory who likes Rory Stewart yet the media keeps yapping on about him and giving him oxygen.

Guess I feel like establishment Republicans looking at Trump in 2015, hahaha.

[The Blaatschapen]

Putin worked for the KGB.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Putin#KGB_career

But is Putin a good leader? I guess that answers my question.

Morally good?

No.

Efficient in governance? Pragmatic? Drenched in realpolitik?

Quite a strongarm leader.

[The Free Joy State]

I'm not fully convinced of that, either.

If -- which could happen -- we get Johnson and there's a vote of no confidence (where some of Johnson's own MPs vote against him -- which is possible, because some have said they can't work under him), which is lost (leading to a general election), that could also lead to the fragmenting of the Tory party.

The hard-Brexit, traditionalist parliamentary faction could splinter from the more moderate faction, which -- as they've seen how well starting a new party goes -- could well drift to one of the more centre-ground parties (swelling their numbers).

So, I'm not convinced it would be best for the Tories.

Brexit might get forced through, if he stayed in power long enough, but that might well be all.

The most important issue at the moment however is Brexit. At the start of the saga, I might have been more inclined to support a softer Brexit option, but 3 years on? With all the stalling from parliament and the snearing of the remain supporters? No, I'm not sorry to say that it's Brexit at any price for me now, and I know a lot of Brexit supporters who have changed in just this way. The remain camp brought the support of Brexit supporters to a harder position on themselves.

Ignoring phrases like "I know a lot of", because it's a weasel word. I also know multiple former Brexit supporters that now wish for a Remain outcome, because it's turned into a shitshow. But as anecdote is not a single form of "data", we'll move on.

Also, you'll forgive me for not putting too much stock in your opinion since I believe you aim for a total societal breakdown:

I thought it was because you wanted some kind of apocalyptic meltdown?

That'd be the end goal, but that doesn't stop me from pushing for a better country prior to that.

And from another thread (awhile ago, and I acknowledge you may no longer believe this):

You assume I want society to continue. Of everyone who anybody cares to debate with on this forum, I am almost certainly the one they agree with the least, given I believe that the only way for society to get out of the current rut is for a complete breakdown to occur.

As I do not see how the improvement of the country and the destruction of the country are compatible goals, you will forgive my scepticism.

[Ifreann]

Apparently it isn't known how many children Boris has? I mean, I assume Boris knows, or can make a good guess, but the press/general public doesn't know.

[The Blaatschapen]

Apparently it isn't known how many children Boris has? I mean, I assume Boris knows, or can make a good guess, but the press/general public doesn't know.

Should this be a known figure to the public?

I mean, shouldn't people's private lives be private?

[West Leas Oros 2]

Apparently it isn't known how many children Boris has? I mean, I assume Boris knows, or can make a good guess, but the press/general public doesn't know.

Should this be a known figure to the public?

I mean, shouldn't people's private lives be private?

What is this "privacy" you speak of?

[The Free Joy State]

Should this be a known figure to the public?

I mean, shouldn't people's private lives be private?

What is this "privacy" you speak of?

It once was a valuable natural resource, but Google privatised it.

[Hirota]

Rory Stewart: "I'm not saying I'm a spy, but I am saying that I'm legally required to say I'm not a spy"

I actually wonder if a spy would make a good leader. Leaders in the past have included veterans and such, so why not spies?

Oooh, our own British Putin.

[The Nihilistic view]

Don't know a single Tory who likes Rory Stewart yet the media keeps yapping on about him and giving him oxygen.

Guess I feel like establishment Republicans looking at Trump in 2015, hahaha.

I like him, he just has no chance winning a GE.

[Ifreann]

Apparently it isn't known how many children Boris has? I mean, I assume Boris knows, or can make a good guess, but the press/general public doesn't know.

Should this be a known figure to the public?

I mean, shouldn't people's private lives be private?

Having consulted the Google machine, it's just Piers Morgan suggesting that BoJo isn't doing interviews for fear that he'll be asked about secret children he fathered when cheating on his wife. So there are no people who care, just Piers Morgan.

[The Blaatschapen]

Should this be a known figure to the public?

I mean, shouldn't people's private lives be private?

Having consulted the Google machine, it's just Piers Morgan suggesting that BoJo isn't doing interviews for fear that he'll be asked about secret children he fathered when cheating on his wife. So there are no people who care, just Piers Morgan.

If Piers Morgan were on NSG, I'd have blocked him. So indeed, nobody relevant cares.

[Neu Leonstein]

The remain camp brought the support of Brexit supporters to a harder position on themselves.

If only we hadn't told you that you couldn't fly by flapping your arms really quickly, you wouldn't have had to start believing you could go to Mars by eating lots of beans and farting really hard.

This line of reasoning comes up a lot these days. But it's nobody's obligation to agree with, accommodate or fail to argue against something stupid another person believes, just to stop that person from believing something even more stupid. Defensiveness does not make a valid foundation for a policy programme.

[Salandriagado]

Don't know a single Tory who likes Rory Stewart yet the media keeps yapping on about him and giving him oxygen.

Guess I feel like establishment Republicans looking at Trump in 2015, hahaha.

"People you know" is not a representative sample of the Tory party.

[Salandriagado]

Apparently it isn't known how many children Boris has? I mean, I assume Boris knows, or can make a good guess, but the press/general public doesn't know.

Should this be a known figure to the public?

I mean, shouldn't people's private lives be private?

Try telling that to the Tories.

[Vassenor]

Don't know a single Tory who likes Rory Stewart yet the media keeps yapping on about him and giving him oxygen.

Guess I feel like establishment Republicans looking at Trump in 2015, hahaha.

So how did he avoid getting eliminated?

[The Nihilistic view]

Should this be a known figure to the public?

I mean, shouldn't people's private lives be private?

Having consulted the Google machine, it's just Piers Morgan suggesting that BoJo isn't doing interviews for fear that he'll be asked about secret children he fathered when cheating on his wife. So there are no people who care, just Piers Morgan.

Wot a lad!

[Souseiseki]

I've made up my mind on Brexit, I begrudgingly support it provided we leave the European court as well (Which is a requirement for being in the EU, though a seperate institution from it). It opens us up to leaving treaties like the Istanbul convention and so on.

it also opens you up to whatever random bullshit your new tory government feels like on any given day

[Vassenor]

I've made up my mind on Brexit, I begrudgingly support it provided we leave the European court as well (Which is a requirement for being in the EU, though a seperate institution from it). It opens us up to leaving treaties like the Istanbul convention and so on.

it also opens you up to whatever random bullshit your new tory government feels like on any given day

But it also makes it harder for men to be punished for domestic violence so it must be a win.

[The Huskar Social Union]

I've made up my mind on Brexit, I begrudgingly support it provided we leave the European court as well (Which is a requirement for being in the EU, though a seperate institution from it). It opens us up to leaving treaties like the Istanbul convention and so on.

it also opens you up to whatever random bullshit your new tory government feels like on any given day

But hey, feminism.

[North German Realm]

I've made up my mind on Brexit, I begrudgingly support it provided we leave the European court as well (Which is a requirement for being in the EU, though a seperate institution from it). It opens us up to leaving treaties like the Istanbul convention and so on.

it also opens you up to whatever random bullshit your new tory government feels like on any given day

Yeah, but what makes you think that's not why Ostro supports it?

[Souseiseki]

https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/11 ... 5686918144

Conservative Party members say they would sacrifice Scotland, Northern Ireland, the Conservative Party and the economy to get Brexit. The only thing they would lose Brexit for is to stop Corbyn.

how do you even begin to fix something like this